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Do(u)g, thanks again for the Hammer Nutrition suggestion(24 posts)

Do(u)g, thanks again for the Hammer Nutrition suggestionJS Haiku Shop
Mar 24, 2003 9:51 AM
picked up some stuff late last week, and Wonderdog kicked in with a tub of the recovery mix he didn't much like. i tried it on a 55-miler saturday (longest ride before next weekend's 300k). felt fine and it seemed to work ok, but typically on rides of around 60 miles i'll only eat a luna bar and have 2 large bottles of gatorade.

this time i tried 2 scoops of sustained energy (one per 32 ounce bottle) and ~3 servings of hammer gel in the bottles (total used, not per bottle). i think that's about 420 calories. i did try to flavor the mix with sugar-free coolaid, but that sucked. i've since bought some crystal light (sp?) drink mix and will try on saturday.

how do you use it, and any suggestions?

everyone's invited to chime in here.

sure; questionDougSloan
Mar 24, 2003 10:00 AM
Did you use 2 scoops SE AND Hammergel per bottle? If so,
that's probably a little too concentrated. Too high concentrations cause gas, slow absorption (and dehydration), and GI distress for me. You may be fine for a few hours, but if you do that for 10 hours or so it could be a problem. Just experiment to be sure what works for you.

I would forget trying to flavor the stuff and just get used to it. I hated SE at first, but now like it unflavored. When you get real serious about this ultra stuff, things like taste are the least of your problems. "Builds character."

Using Endurolytes, too?

So . . .Rich_Racer
Mar 24, 2003 10:50 AM
. .. any chance you'd give us a run down of your regime Doug? eg, what you consume, measurements, timings, changes for different rides, etc.??? If you have time.


Mar 24, 2003 11:01 AM
I shoot for 300 carbohydrate calories per hour, mostly from Sustained Energy. I supplement that with Hammergel if a bonk is felt, or if I know a big effort is coming up (like a big climb). The SE is usually in a large bottle of water, with a small bit of salt added. I drink a minimum of one bottle per hour. If it's hot out, I drink from another bottle (or Camelbak) of plain water.

This is for race pace efforts, that is, to cover the event distance as fast as you can. For slower paced efforts, you can actually consume a little more, as more blood is available for digestion, you aren't down in low aero positions as much, etc.

I do recommend that if you are preparing for a big ultra event that you use your products you are considering during every ride. While it sounds whacky to use SE for an hour long ride, it will help to get you thoroughly accustomed to not only the physical aspect of the food consumption, but mentally, too. You make it a habit, drinking at the same rate you think you'll need on your big event.

Food and hydration are the biggest concerns on ultra (over 200 miles) events, at least for me. Figure out what works for you early and practice it every ride. What works for me may not work for others.

Now, for the 508 team event, things were very different, as I was time trialing about once an hour for 24 hours, each time using a maximum "go to you puke" effort. That's totally different, as you have time to digest food in between pulls. I used more Hammergel and even some hard foods then. That's sort of an unusual event, though.

answerJS Haiku Shop
Mar 24, 2003 11:01 AM
one scoop and 1.5 servings hammer gel per ~32 ounce bottle (two bottles). total use of 2 scoops and 3 servings hammer gel across ~64 ounces of water.

i'll run with exactly one serving (3 scoops) per bottle per hour (i drink alot) and see how that goes. this will be diluted, as i tend to drink a full 32-ounce bottle about every hour, maybe a little less. i'll use the hammer gel for a shot here and there. BTW, apple cinnamon = YUM!

no endurolytes yet. they didn't have 'em at the shop, and i limited myself to LBS for a few reasons on this purchase.

i'll go without flavor for the first 2 bottles this weekend and see how it works, though i'll carry the crystal light with me just in case (in my honkin'-large carradice bag).

I haven't been in touch with Steve Born yet, but i will.
sounds goodDougSloan
Mar 24, 2003 11:04 AM
Sounds at least like a good place to start. If I recall correctly, you are bigger than I am, so you may get away with more carb consumption.

If you don't use Endurolytes, try some salt or salt tablets, potassium, and Tums. Start with a little and work up.

i've used tums so far,...JS Haiku Shop
Mar 24, 2003 11:09 AM
and didn't even consider that i'd have to supplement the SE and HG with sodium as i'm not planning to eat any solids.

i'm 6'2" and ~200#, and can eat 1/3 my weight in corn dogs while drinking 12-14 cheap brewed adult beverages over the course of 6 hours. :) !
addendumJS Haiku Shop
Mar 24, 2003 11:10 AM
"and didn't even consider that i'd have to supplement the SE and HG with sodium as i'm not planning to eat any solids." thanks for the heads-up, will do.
Thank youRich_Racer
Mar 24, 2003 11:14 AM
Cheers guys, for that!
Another questionRich_Racer
Mar 24, 2003 11:24 AM
Is Sustained Energy carb mostly complex or simple sugars? Is there an optimum mix in your 300 kcals/hr?

check nmJS Haiku Shop
Mar 24, 2003 11:27 AM
Mar 24, 2003 11:17 AM
SE and HG have very little electrolytes -- they are purely for energy (and a little protein with SE). In fact, I've been pestering Steve Born to get get them added for a while. He says that because people and conditions vary so much, they prefer to keep them separate. Might be a problem with keeping the mixture homogenous in big containers, too.

do you use actual salt, and how much per SE serving? nmJS Haiku Shop
Mar 24, 2003 11:28 AM
yes; about 1/4 teaspoon/32 ounces nmDougSloan
Mar 24, 2003 12:33 PM
noted, thanks. nmJS Haiku Shop
Mar 24, 2003 12:42 PM
445 calories per hour and 5200 calories total (200 lb / 200 km)teamsloppy
Mar 24, 2003 11:48 AM
It looks like you need about 445 calories per hour and 5200 calories total. (for 200 lb rider and 200 km at 16 MPH).

I think you can assume that you burn 10% (20% max) of those calories from body fat. But the rest has to come from Glycogen and Blood sugar. I think most people can store around 2 hours worth of Glycogen. The rest has to be made up by carbohydrate (i.e sugar) intake. Otherwise, you bonk.

Here's the assumptions put into my spreadsheet to come up with the calorie rate. Note that headwinds, altitude gain, and speed will all increase that caloric intake

Number of Miles (one way - 1/2 trip) 94
Average Speed MPH 16
Cv = average Speed of cyclist (meters/sec) 7.152444444
K1 (85 Kg weight) = constant 3.59
K2 (85 Kg weight) = constatnt 0.251
Mass of Bike in Lbs - water, tools, pump 24
Weight of Cyclist in LBS 200
Mass in Lbs - bike and cyclist 224
Em = (mass of cyclist and Bike in Kg) 101.60416
Wind speed MPH 1
Cw = Wind speed meters/sec 0.446428571
s = slope in grade % 0.00%
a = acceleration (meters/sec-sec) 0

Cal ingested/minute = 7.414213107
Cal ingested/hour = 444.8527864
Cal/mile = 27.80329915
kCals for the oneway ride = 2613.51012

Total Altitude Gain (feet) 100
Total Altitude Gain (meters) 30.48
Conversion Kg-meters(joules) to Kcals 418.48
kCal/altitude gain = 16.31504492

kCALs Round Trip + Altitude 5259.65033
wow, thanks!!! btw, how does that change with bike weight adj?JS Haiku Shop
Mar 24, 2003 12:10 PM
"Mass of Bike in Lbs - water, tools, pump 24"

LOL! i don't think the bike weighs 24 pounds with only bottle cages and pedals. add 64 oz water in 2 bottles, lights, pump, and large bag-o-sh!te, and adjust as required. thus,...


Mass of Bike in Lbs - water, tools, pump 43
ya, add 200 Cal for that luggage! :-) nmSpunout
Mar 24, 2003 12:23 PM
bottle neckDougSloan
Mar 24, 2003 12:40 PM
The bottle neck, or limiting factor in all this is how fast can your digestive tract absorb the calories and sufficient water while you are riding hard? How much you are using is irrelevant. Plus, even if you are 250 pounds and ride 25 mph, if I'm 150 pounds and ride 20 mph, if we both have the same ability to absorb calories, I can go longer than you, and in the end, maybe even get to the finish faster.

One variable is the ability to burn fat. The more long rides you do, the better your body becomes are burning fat and conserving carbos. When I was doing a double in training nearly every weekend, I could easily ride a century with no food at all. However, that kind of training sacrafices speed and anaerobic conditioning -- you can't have it all.

So, you should attempt to inject the most carbo calories you can, while still getting enough water. If your stomach becomes your bottle neck, more food will backfire on you; your only choice is to slow down.

Steve Born, at around 175 pounds, did a DOUBLE 508 last time on 300 calories per hour. Yes, he did it backwards, then forwards -- 1016 miles. He has good fat burning efficiency, and knows what works for him.

I read Steve's account with interestJS Haiku Shop
Mar 24, 2003 12:53 PM
from the ultra listserve. all with a 53/39, 12/27. there really aren't sufficient adjectives, are there?

i've been good so far with a clif bar plus a heavily diluted (weak) 32 ounce bottle of gatorade per hour--in all, 350-400 calories. i've not whittled this down to bare bones, though, so i'm unsure of how little i can ride on. supplemented with 2 flasks of gel, i'll carry 2-3 scoops per hour and assume that's all i need. if this fails, there are always convenience stores where i might find some fig newtons.
0.46 Kcals per start/stop per add'l 20 lbsteamsloppy
Mar 24, 2003 1:58 PM
At constant speed, 0. It is only the accelerations (for stops, turns, uphills) and altitude gain that the extra weight will penalize you (ignoring wind resistance). So, don't stop (or turn)!

The mass only adds suprisingly little. I can't calculate the more significant wind resistance a large bag might add.

An extra 20 lbs requires 0.46 KCals per start/stop assuming you accelerate at 0.715 meters/sec for 10 seconds (i.e. from 0 to 16 MPH in 10 seconds) and ignoring any wind resistance.

I counted 18 stops, turns and slowdowns on my ride to work. Assuming 16 stop/starts & turns per mile, the extra 20 lbs adds only 7.6 Kcals per Hour.

Also, an extra 20 lbs adds 1.4 Kcals per 100 feet of climbing (17.7 vs 16.3).

I can't calculate the most dominant factor (wind resistance) that a large toolbag may add to calories. Doug Sloan posted a website link describing aero dynamics of wheels that also described the seat-mounted water bottle racks as adding significant drag. I imagine a big bag would also.
thanks again!...JS Haiku Shop
Mar 25, 2003 6:17 AM
so maybe less fretting over not having what i need is worth 7 calories per hour? :)
For 30 miles or so...GreenFan
Mar 24, 2003 6:57 PM
I'll juse about 3-4 servings of hammer gel straight with a 24 oz water bottle, for 60-80 mile rides I'll use about 5-6 servings, 2-3 24 oz water bottles and a couple of rice krispy treats (gotta have something close to solid in there), I've never tried all of the other stuff, but since switching over to hammer gel from the "other brands" I recover ALOT better.
I mix it a little thickerMike P
Mar 25, 2003 4:19 AM
I use the Sustained Energy and Endurolytes. In one of the 32 oz. bottles I put 2 scoops of SE per hour (up to 6 scoops), along with 2 of the Endurolytes per hour, (more if it's hot) and open them up and dump the powder in with the SE. Sometimes I add a little Hammer Gel Orange for flavor. To keep from having stomach problems I take two good drinks of water after one sip of the mixture.

I have been experimenting with mixing the Anti-Fatigue Caps in as well; no verdict yet on + or -.