|Anybody not buying French cycling stuff anymore?||ohmk1|
Mar 18, 2003 6:26 AM
|I'm curious if anyone out there will stop buying cycling products made by French companies. Or is anyone experiencing "buyers' remorse" from purchasing a LOOK frame, or Mavic wheels?|
|Are you selling something? Let me know, I'll buy it :-P||Spunout|
Mar 18, 2003 6:34 AM
|is it cycling related?||cyclopathic|
Mar 18, 2003 6:35 AM
|I think there was a deal to keep all "political" discussions to non-cycling forum. Appreciate your understanding.|
|Yup. From now on - only American made Huffy's for me||PaulCL|
Mar 18, 2003 6:35 AM
|Just kidding. Though three of the eight bikes in my garage are Huffys.
Let's not forget that the Look frame, Mavic wheels, cleats, clothing, etc that is made in France is distributed in the USA by American companies. Not buying those products would hurt the US distributors.
To answer your question: NO. I'll buy what I want, what I can afford, the best I can afford regardless of the country of origin. I will admit that I have always tried to buy American when possible. Like I try to give business to my LBS when financially feasible.
I have an international bike: Italian frame, French and American wheelsets, Italian saddle - tires -components, USA tubes, Japanese stem & bar, and most important of all: American rider.
|Did anyone buy French products before?||sacheson|
Mar 18, 2003 6:42 AM
|OK ... with the exception of MAVIC wheels, do the French produce any cycling product that's worthwhile?|
Mar 18, 2003 7:01 AM
|Maybe you're not old enough to remember the Peugeot PX-10, Gitane Tour De France, or Motobecane Grand Jubilee. Not to mention LOOK frames and pedals or Michelin tires. How about the La Vie Claire "super" team. Don't get me started.........|
|Do you understand this discussion?||sacheson|
Mar 18, 2003 8:24 AM
|Apparently not. It's about purchasing currently sold product from the French market, not 20 year old bikes or supporting a "super team" that hasn't been around for just as long. It's not that they make inferior stuff, it's just that there are far superior products made outside France. There aren't many products coming out of France that *I'd* ride when I have the choices I do.
Look frames: what's the big deal (aside from sponsoring cool riders). They are heavy, flexy, and tend to employ odd technological "advances" (adjustable drops?). They don't appeal to *me* and my style of riding.
Look pedals: don't get me started. I'll just say: plastic cleats. Use 'em if you want to. There are too many products on the market of similar weight, similar (or better) performance, and you don't pull out of your pedal in a sprint because you didn't plan on a cleat wearing out in 4 months.
Michelin tires: yeah, if you want to use a foul riding, stiff tire with crappy cornering - go ahead.
Even MAVIC wheels, while good, are getting shown up by other manufacturers stuff. In *MY* opinion Zipp, Am Classic, Reynolds and even Bontrager (Trek) are producing wheels that are superior to MAVIC. They do make good wheels, though.
So no, there aren't many cycling product *I* would buy that the French produce. But my point is moot since I have no problems purchasing French products. I'm more in the ban stuff from Texas group myself.
|Read your header...||Dave Hickey|
Mar 18, 2003 8:36 AM
|sacheson says: "Did anyone buy French products before? "
No need to get pissy. I just replied to your post.
|Clarification noted ...||sacheson|
Mar 18, 2003 8:57 AM
|... it's not what I implied, but I see how you could make that inference.
Let me rephrase my original subject: "Does anyone presently purchase current French products, anyway?"
|Michelin. Clement. Old Peugeot. Leoville-Las Cases.||Spunout|
Mar 18, 2003 7:05 AM
|Not to mention Lynch-Bages.||Gadfly|
Mar 18, 2003 10:17 AM
|I'm also partial to a glass of Domaine de la Janesse once in awhile.
|Too many to mention||vindicator|
Mar 18, 2003 3:12 PM
|Just took delivery on my 2000 Vieux Donjon, Montrose, Grand Puy Lacoste, and Calon Segur. Will be picking up my 2000 Beaucastel soon, just ordered '01 Vieux Donjon and Les Cailloux (Brunel). Desperately looking for 2000 Chave at "normal" retail price.
Not to mention oodles of Cotes du Rhones, Liracs, Pic St. Loups, etc. for everyday drinking!
And on and on and on...
|Carnac shoes, Zefal pumps, Hutchinson tires...||Dale Brigham|
Mar 18, 2003 7:07 AM
|These are a few of my favorite things. Although French bikes and components are nowhere near as prevalent today in the U.S. as they were in the 60's and 70's, they still make plenty of gear that is, in many cases, top notch. Look frames, forks, and pedals come to mind, not to mention (but I will!) Time pedals, shoes, forks, and frames, Cyfac frames/bikes, and Michelin tires. You get the picture. France is a major cycling industry power.
Mavic used to make great component groups, as did Simplex-Spiedel (sp?), but Shimano put a stop to that (see Suntour). The old Mavic "flying saucer" cranksets are still among the most beautiful ever made. T.A. still makes nice stuff, as does Stronglight, but we just don't see much of it here.
I think it's cool that the French bike brands that were around in the U.S. in the early 70's are still evident in France. LaPierre (my first "10 speed"), Jeunet (my first real "racing bike"), Gitane, and LeJeune are all still around (I think), and some even have bikes in the pro peloton.
|Tomme de Savoie au Lait Cru, and an Alsacian pinot gris. nm||Spunout|
Mar 18, 2003 7:12 AM
|French bike products owned--||Leroy|
Mar 18, 2003 7:50 AM
|I've had a PX-10 [great bike - I literally wore it out] with alloy simplex ders., stronglight crankset, mavic brakes, maillard freewheel. I've got mavic open pro wheels on two bikes, and cx21/cx11 on a beater. I just bought a set of record open pro wheels, without a thought of a boycot. I have a set of the black Mavic brakes that are the best brakes I've ever had. I think I could go along with a boycot if I could have a free pass on Mavic stuff.|
|Forgot the Michelin tires, I'll need a pass on those, too nm||Leroy|
Mar 18, 2003 7:52 AM
|I just sent mine back.||Live Steam|
Mar 18, 2003 8:00 AM
|I love the Pro Race, but it will be Vittoria from now on!|
|LOL! You're cracking me up. Good one! nm||Spunout|
Mar 18, 2003 8:05 AM
|I am glad I can amuse you so easily. nm||Live Steam|
Mar 18, 2003 8:18 AM
|I hope the French are as amused when their economy goes farther south because of their stance.|
|time: the best cx pedals ever made.||colker|
Mar 18, 2003 8:17 AM
|their road pedals are supposed to be excellent too. looks are nice.|
|Pshaw, the french connection is naught but a smoke screen. (nm)||onespeed|
Mar 18, 2003 6:57 AM
|yes and ...||philippec|
Mar 18, 2003 7:00 AM
|...why stop there.
Go ask your local grocery store manager where they stand on the issue b/c if they are against the war, you can tell them to kiss your business goodbye!
And, wait what about the local LBS (if you still go there - but that is another discussion)! Unless every person on staff signs an affadavit saying they 100% support our president on the war in Iraq (and shows you their voting record over the past 4 national elections -- and can account for their whereabouts the day Kennedy was shot), you should drop them like a hot potato and shop with Performance ..... as soon as their CEO takes out a full-page ad in 5 major metropolitain daily newspapers declaring that Performance in no way questions US policy in the mid-east.
And that's just the start. Your neighbor against the war? dump trash in their yard and roll their trees.
Your children too? Disown them!
Who needs political dialogue and debate when you can take quick and decisive action against our enemies... once we have cleaned up the USA, France had better watch out :)
For those considering a "symbolic" move against France pls. give it a rest and afford that country the same right as our fellow citizens -- to freely express their political views... and yadaa, yadaa, yadaa, yes, of course it is your right to boycot whom you please, just dont overlook all the opportunities to do so in your own country!
Now let's all take our soma and go out and ride for chrisakes!
|In our free market economy...||ohmk1|
Mar 18, 2003 7:21 AM
|we can choose to buy and sell as we please.
I love my MAVIC wheelset. They're rock solid. I don't think any company makes better wheels. Maybe just as good, but not better than the French Mavics.
I was just wondering if the current situation will alter what cyclists will be buying.
|we should talk over a Cuban cigar and a Havana club......||Spunout|
Mar 18, 2003 7:28 AM
|come to Ottawa, anything is possible.|
|yes and ...||mickey-mac|
Mar 18, 2003 7:26 AM
|While we're at it, why not boycott Lance Armstrong? He came out in opposition to the war. And now that we're on the subject, let's boycott any further posts by Philippe. Sure, he's one of the most interesting posters on the board, but with a name like that he has to be a freedom-hating, lily-livered, back-stabbing surrender-monkey. Right? I demand that Philippe change his name to Chuck within the next 48 hours or face serious consequences. ;-)|
Mar 18, 2003 8:09 AM
|but my two sons and I will never change our names! In fact, I demand that your leader change his name to Marcel Ducon and eat a roasted andouillette on Foxnews!
all in good fun...
Mar 18, 2003 8:15 AM
|Although the picture makes it appear, ahem, rather unappetizing.|
|pardon my ignorance of French, but...||p chop|
Mar 18, 2003 1:55 PM
|is that a french fry?|
|bravo Philipe! (nm)||velocity|
Mar 18, 2003 7:58 AM
|Union lettuce, don't ask, etc.||ms|
Mar 18, 2003 8:49 AM
|I never have been one for economic boycotts. When I was in college in the 1970s, those of us who were PC (I was young then) were supposed to boycott non-union lettuce. The college dining halls marked the lettuce by its origin. The union lettuce usually had brown edges, etc. The non-union lettuce was fresh and green. Guess which one I ate? If a product is good and the price is fair, I will buy it regardless of its origin. France makes many fine cycling and non-cycling products -- I'm keeping what I have and will buy more when I want/need them.
I am an armchair political junkie. However, when it comes to business, I don't broadcast my political views and I don't ask people with whom I do business for theirs. If my clients decided whether to continue using me as their lawyer depended upon my voting record for president or any other public official, I am fairly sure that I would have many fewer clients than I have. Two of my favorite riding buddies have political views that are 180 degrees opposed to mine. And, if I were to apply an Iraq war litmus test at home, one of my daughters would have to go -- my 11 year old has become a jingoistic Bushie and my 13 year old wants to find an antiwar protest in which to march.
Politics are not unimportant. But, all of us need to compartmentalize politics and the rest of our lives. I agree with Chuck (nee Philippe), let's go out and ride.
|Remorse? How about grief-stricken?||djg|
Mar 18, 2003 7:27 AM
|Let's see . . . two sets of Look CX-7 pedals, one Look ergopost, one set of Mavic Ks, and a very comfy pair of carnac shoes currently in use. I am working through my buyer's remorse over all these French purchases (not to mention the wine I've got downstairs--mostly from Cali but, you know . . . ) . . . it's a process.
Ok, the process worked. Now I feel just fine about it.
|I'm exclusively buying French||terry b|
Mar 18, 2003 7:33 AM
|Boycotting a multinational corporation that is based in a country that we have a disagreement with is silly.
Reminds me of the '80s - "let's not buy Japanese because their economy is kicking out butts." Gee, where are they today?
I think you have to feel sorry for France. They want so desparately to be important and cannot accept the fact that they are a second tier international player. Mavic is certainly not responsible for the behavior of politicians with a collective inferiority complex.
|..Don't forget to click-through RBR to support the site! :) nm||Spunout|
Mar 18, 2003 7:38 AM
|I will if I can find the links for pate and Julliette Binoche nm||terry b|
Mar 18, 2003 8:26 AM
|well, Japanese economy is still kicking your butt....||PeterRider|
Mar 18, 2003 9:37 AM
|despite all what Japanese government says about recession and poor economy, I still see japanese domination of Japanese companies in the same fields as in the 80's... don't you use a Sony display to rear RBR, or a Dell one which has a Sony trinitron tube, or a Toshiba laptop, or a Hitachi one ? ... NEC is still the biggest company selling electronic components in the world... in optics, I don't know anything but japanese stuff: Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Fuji... don't you have a Nissan or a Toyota car ? Or even better, don't you have Shimano components on your bike ?
Just go out and ride your bike, as other smart people already said.
Mar 18, 2003 10:10 AM
|But the Japanese economy is just a fraction of the size of the US. True, the Japanese are excellent at manufacturing. But most of the items you mention are not made in Japan anymore. Computers? HP is the world's biggest manufacturer. The really big stuff, like cars, is probably made in the good ole U.S.A. Of course, why should we bother you with facts?
Now go out and dig up some truffles for my dinner.
|US is doing the same as Japan...||PeterRider|
Mar 18, 2003 10:40 AM
|... that is, having stuff made in Indonesia, Hong Kong, China or Philippins, just because the labor is cheaper there. Look at the clothes you are wearing, even if they are american brands they are all made in those countries. Same for the parts of your car or your HP computer. Intel is probably the only big company that has factories for producing chips here in the US, all others are only assembling in the US.
Of course, japanese economy is a fraction of the size of the US. But saying that is like saying french population is a fraction of the size of the chinese population. It was the case in the 80's as well.
You're welcome to join my dinner, but I fear you'll prefer eating a cheap hamburger.
|US is doing the same as Japan...||purplepaul|
Mar 18, 2003 11:03 AM
|I thought you said Japan was kicking out butt. Little bit of that inbred French obfuscation I guess.
Thanks for the invite. But no hamburgers for me. I'm a vegetarian.
|cars. vcrs and dvds for sure||terry b|
Mar 18, 2003 11:39 AM
|I was thinking specifically about semiconductors since that's my field. In 1983 I was building a plant and decided to buy Nikon lithography equipment. I had an endless parade of noble Americans stopping by to tell be we should buy American only since the Japanese were dumping RAM chips and killing noble American firms. My answer was - if you want to beat them, use the same equipment. We ultimately did, and we ultimately did. Try and find a single Japanese microprocessor on a shelf today.
No doubt in terms of consumer electronics and cars Japan continues to market superior products. They're not made in Japan though as you've pointed out. And, in the grand scale of world economies those products are nit. Japan is no longer buying Hawaii wholesale and they don't own Rockefeller Center anymore.
But all this Japan stuff is really off my point. The debate about boycotting France over some stupid political decision is in my mind derived from the same uneducated, ill-informed jingoism that drove the attitude about Japan. If one looks at the big picture, a boycott of anything merely makes the individual feel better since it doesn't make a whit of difference to the boycottee (is that a word, like irregardless?) Of course there are some exceptions like the boycott of drift-netted Tuna. That type is different though since there is a moral angle.
|cars. vcrs and dvds for sure||Live Steam|
Mar 18, 2003 12:47 PM
|"a boycott of anything merely makes the individual feel better since it doesn't make a whit of difference to the boycottee"
I think the French and Germans will find out if it "makes a whit of a difference" this time around. I know of two people who have cancelled their orders on Mercedes and my cycling bud who likes his bikes to be Italian and his wine to be French, just cancelled his order of French wine from his dealer - about $12k worth. His dealer said he understood and has received similar requests from other customers. I think both Germany and France will feel the pinch in many ways, especially considering the states of their economies now. If you have noticed, we haven't heard much from Germany lately. Jacques Strap is doing all of the talking and Germany is now silent. I think they know what the backlash will be and are in damage control mode already.
|cars. vcrs and dvds for sure||terry b|
Mar 18, 2003 3:06 PM
|Do you think the French and German governments will change their mind and send troops into harm's way in a war that is unpopular with 80% of their respective voting public because of people cancelling Benzs and wine?
The problem is that the wine dealer, here in the US (I assume) is going to feel the pinch not the vineyard or the distributor. Chances are it's cost sunk in inventory that's already been paid for. Ditto for the Benz. Additionally, keep in mind that the items you're describing are very finite in their availability - they tend to sell out so for every person taking a stand, there's another seeing an opportunity to get something they might have missed out on.
If this war is as quick as it's purported to be the American buying public will have forgotten about it and will be back to sipping Marqaux in their C class long before any individuals in Europe will even understand there was an economic pinch. Couple that with the fact that most American consumers don't want to give up their goodies as a political statement. Good for your friends for making a stand, but in the grand scheme of economics we're talking peanuts.
|cars. vcrs and dvds for sure||Live Steam|
Mar 18, 2003 3:24 PM
|You may or may not be correct as I may or may not be either. Time will be the judge of that. I do feel that the World has changed a great deal since 9/11 and so has people's attitudes and actions. I do believe that Americans will think twice about what they spend their money on. Don't underestimate the power of the consumer. The dealer may have some wine sitting on his shelf and the Benz dealer may have cars sitting there for a while too, but this will dictate what their future order will be like. I also believe that many will avoid traveling to France for a while. I also think that many American companies will look at their purchases and make alternate choices. I also think that the American government will do the same. There is a price for everything. It seems that we, the US of A, are always paying it. I think we make some of our "friends" pay this time around.
As for whether France or Germany send troops to a war that is not popular with their electorate, well that is fine, however we may as well tear up the NTAO agreement and disband the UN Security Council. They have no relevance in my opinion and in the opinion of many. The US should stand by those who stand by her.
|cars. vcrs and dvds for sure||terry b|
Mar 18, 2003 4:47 PM
|I agree with everything you've said including your very eloquent statement about "standing with those that stand with us." Problem is, our argument isn't with Look and Mavic - they've made no political stance that I know of. Ignoring their products is not (in my estimation) the right response. Unfortunately I can't think of a direct means of punishing the French and German governments, and I don't think I want to punish the people of France and Germany (who might work at producing those products.) They might actually agree with us, in which case what's the point of a boycott other than to make a personal statement. If people feel they want to take that kind of stand, then bless them all.|
|Stop talking silly !!! nm||MR_GRUMPY|
Mar 18, 2003 7:36 AM
|What about Tour De France ??!!?????!!!!????????||elviento|
Mar 18, 2003 8:05 AM
|gimme a break. Each country has its own will. Who the f*ck are you to tell them what to do?|
|if italy & japan sides with france; would you quit riding?||colker|
Mar 18, 2003 8:09 AM
|you wouldn't buy tires, rims, brakes, derr. etc.. no vittoria, sidis, continentals, look, time etc.. for you.|
Mar 18, 2003 8:38 AM
|Who elected George Bush emperor of the planet? So, if somebody or some country doesn't agree with our cowboy, gun-toting president, they immediately become our enemies? While you're at it, why don't you also lock up all the Americans who happen to disagree with the Bush Administration? |
Oh, and to answer your question, I will proudly continue to buy Michelin tires, Look pedals, brie cheese, etc.
|Buying wine, cheese, Motobecanes & looking for a Peugeot||cory|
Mar 18, 2003 8:46 AM
|And I'm thinking about starting to wear a beret. But it will be a cold day in hell before I buy anything from Texas.|
|Dixie Chicks are French too! Burning my tix ...||PdxMark|
Mar 18, 2003 8:57 AM
|to their next show. That will show them!!! Not really.|
|She was thinking with her own mind. Bad American! nm||Spunout|
Mar 18, 2003 9:07 AM
|God Bless Natalie Maines!||Dale Brigham|
Mar 18, 2003 9:22 AM
|You Go, Girl! Tell it Baby!
Dixie Chick, fellow Lubbockite, and daughter of the legendary Lloyd Maines, pedal steel guitarist and record producer extraordinaire (oops, a French word!), who toured with The Clash in the late 70's when he was playing with Joe Ely's band. Joe Strummer (R.I.P.) sang about them on the Sandanista! album: "There ain't no better blend, than Joe Ely and his Texas men." (Pardon my digression, please!)
|Sorry guys, French people invented bikes :-)||PeterRider|
Mar 18, 2003 9:23 AM
|Okay, I'll make a deal with ya'll...||purplepaul|
Mar 18, 2003 9:47 AM
|You blow up France and we'll flood Texas.|
|Is it Friday already? -nm||SnowBlind|
Mar 18, 2003 9:52 AM
|Just made a purchase choice because of France||LC|
Mar 18, 2003 10:04 AM
|I needed some Look style pedals and was set on getting some Look PP396, but ended up getting some used Dura Ace pedals. I was also set on getting some Mavic wheels, and now I am looking at other alternatives. I would not go so far as saying I would not buy French products anymore, but if I have a choice to make it won't be from France.
It would be nice to see Lance race Italy or Spain instead of France, but I doubt that will happen.
|Why? Rationalize this. Please, make me believe you. nm||Spunout|
Mar 18, 2003 10:10 AM
|Why? Rationalize this. Please, make me believe you. nm||purplepaul|
Mar 18, 2003 10:21 AM
|When I decided against buying any French products a whole world opened up for me. There are far better choices for pedals than Time (Coombe, M2Racer), frames other than Look (Trek or, even better, a custom Ti from Spectrum), wheels other than Mavic (Campagnolo, Zipp), tires other than Michelin or, God forbid, those awful Hutchinsons (Tufo, Vittoria), shoes other than Carnac (Sidi, Nike- the new Poggio II, while rather wacky looking, are as comfortable as slippers) and anything carbon (Reynolds).
I'm so glad the French pulled this stunt. I've got a much better bike because of it.
|But Why? Do you know WHY you do this? nm||Spunout|
Mar 18, 2003 11:43 AM
|But Why? Do you know WHY you do this? nm||purplepaul|
Mar 18, 2003 2:41 PM
|It's a long story. Let's see if I can shorten it a bit.
I am angry with France because its government is trying to undermine US policy, not for the humanitarian reasons it claims but for power. France has been hungry for power for ages but is no longer a force.
Furthermore, France has lucrative contracts with Iraq. It's natural that she would want to protect them, but at least ADMIT IT. Since the last Gulf War, France has sold nuclear processing equipment that, oops, they now say they were duped into providing. That equipment can be used to refine uranium into weapons grade bombs.
Next, France led the charge to cripple sanctions against Iraq to the point that they were no longer effective. Had France not done this, I believe we would not have to risk our troops in a war. To rub more salt into the wound, France has a history of appeasing dictators and then leaving us to deal with the consequences. One would think they would have learned something from WWII, and in fact I think they did. They realized that they can manipulate the US into tolerating their duplicitous dealings while masquerading as humanitarians. If France really cared about the people of Iraq, it would have helped us to isolate Saddam to the point that he could no longer rule. Instead, France traded with Saddam and fought tooth and nail to lift all the sanctions. Every time it claimed its position was dictated by humanitarian reasons. But the problem wasn't sanctions. Rather, it was that any money Saddam had was spent on himself, his weapons and sending huge sums to families of homicide bombers. Just how humanitarian is that? What suffering Iraqi would say, "thanks, France" for that kind of help?
There were two options available to us: sanctions and war. France opposes both.
To sum up, France wants power. It wants relevance and it wants to isolate America. Three reasons why I won't buy French products.
|who started iraqs biological and chemical weapon programs?....||inallston|
Mar 18, 2003 7:38 PM
|the good ol' usa.
maybe you boycott u.s. goods too.
|inallston, You just proved Darwin wrong. nm||purplepaul|
Mar 18, 2003 8:39 PM
|the US was also allies with the Saddam regime in the 80's||LinuxDude|
Mar 18, 2003 9:16 PM
|In fact, when Iraq was in war against Iran, US helped Saddam a great deal with development of chemical and biological weapons. The most hypocritical part of all this is that Don Rumsfeld, himself actually carried out much of these arm deal with Iraq and now he is the biggest opponent. But, back then we wanted to get to Iran at any cost. BTW, this is not some conspiracy theory you might claim. These events were public news back in the 1980's. |
Here this article might help:
In my opinion, this world has no shortage of "evil" characters in it. But the biggest "evil" of them all will be the one with the greatest amount power.
|the US was also allies with the Saddam regime in the 80's||purplepaul|
Mar 18, 2003 9:41 PM
|You are stating old news LinuxDude. It's well known, been all over the news. Certainly not something to be proud of, but relevent? Not anymore.
Your last sentence is so utterly simplistic it's ridiculous. Unless you really believe that giving all of the US' power to bin Laden wouldn't change the world at all.
|put your mind to use, not your big mouth||LinuxDude|
Mar 18, 2003 10:38 PM
|If you consider yourself so wise and think that what I states has no merits, then why didn't you deconstruct my arguments. You say my point is no longer relevant but you don't give any reasons. You say my last thought is ridiculous but you don't explain except to bring some analogy. |
Are you saying that the fact that we have created these monsters (Saddam, and Bin Laden) by means of our political, financial, and military aid is no longer relevant? And now, we have the right to go there, against the wish of the UN and change the regime, in the process killing tens of thousands of people? How is this going to be to the best interest of the American people and to their security? By creating more determined enemies (suicide bombers)?
When certain people have no valid points to argue, then they resort to personal attack and name-calling.
|Sorry you're so thin skinned||purplepaul|
Mar 19, 2003 11:20 AM
|But you opened your mouth and, in my opinion, rammed your foot down it.
You began by stating as something new and unknown and incredibly significant, without stating why, something that is known to all who bother to read the news. You seem to think our having given Iraq chemical and biological weapons in the 1980's precludes our going to war with Saddam now or makes it in some way immoral. I don't see that one follows the other. Perhaps you should follow your own advice and offer some explanation.
Then you offer the simplistic statement that "the biggest evil of them all will be the one with the greatest amount (of) power." Well, the US is the greatest power. Are you saying that the US is the most evil force on earth simply because it is the most powerful? I thought my question to you was appropro your simplistic non-explanation. If you can't see that you're guilty of that which you accused me, I don't see any point in continuing this.
|here is the picture of the the two "evil" buddies||LinuxDude|
Mar 18, 2003 9:22 PM
|most of Spain and Italy are against the war too, now what? nm||climbo|
Mar 18, 2003 10:36 AM
|Smite the Spaniards! Say no to Zeus gruppos!||Dale Brigham|
Mar 18, 2003 10:52 AM
|I've done that for thirty-plus years. Why change now?
On the other hand, Penelope Cruz is another matter altogether. Concerning her, I say "Si!"
|most of Spain and Italy are against the war too, now what? nm||purplepaul|
Mar 18, 2003 10:59 AM
|It's okay that they are against the war. It's the duplicity of the French, their motivation, their stated reasoning vs. the reality, their goal of undermining the U.S., not just on this issue but on all world events, that is causing the uproar. If Americans saw that they were principled, I don't think any but the most nationalistic would have any problem with the French.|
|OK, so why has any American bought French prodcuts before?||climbo|
Mar 18, 2003 11:12 AM
|why now is it such a big deal if it's not about the War? Seriously though, I don't even care, I'm not American, I have no problem with the French.|
|Add Canadian wheat, diamonds, oil, nat gas, lumber, paper...nm||Spunout|
Mar 18, 2003 11:44 AM
|Spain is backing the war. Where do you get your ..||Live Steam|
Mar 18, 2003 1:12 PM
|the Government is, not the people, same for many countries (nm)||climbo|
Mar 18, 2003 1:39 PM
|I'd like to know who "the people" are and just how many they||Live Steam|
Mar 18, 2003 1:57 PM
|represent. Our media is just giving press to the anti war sentiments, yet when surveys are publicized, they show most Americans support the war and it's goal of eliminating Saddam. I would like to see what polls say in other countries as well. I would venture to guess that similar results would be in the realm of possibilities. The anti war sentiment gets more play because it is not mainstream and it has a certain edge to it. Hollywood idiots are traipsing all over Gods creation spewing such crap it is pathetic. Why don't we see James Woods in the news about the war? He is a strong supporter for it. He is intelligent and articulate as they come, yet we are forced to listen to the likes of Janeane Garofalo. How pathetic is that?|
|you can look it up||climbo|
Mar 18, 2003 2:05 PM
|I found it in the Sydney Morning Herald.|
|Oh yeah that's right, The Aussies are supporting this too!||Live Steam|
Mar 18, 2003 2:06 PM
|the Government is, not the people !||climbo|
Mar 18, 2003 2:08 PM
|Most are against war without UN sanction. As are many other countries. It's the end of Howard.
|Spain is backing the war. Where do you get your ..||cycleaddict|
Mar 18, 2003 2:09 PM
|Somewhere other than Rush Limbo and Fox news, unlike you.
I have a friend that just ordered $23K worth of French wine and got a great deal.
Since when does disagreeing w/the cowboy from Texas make one unAmerican?
Live steam, grow up and go ride your bike.
Vive la France!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks Dixie Chicks!!!!!!!!!!
|Spain is backing the war. Where do you get your ..||Live Steam|
Mar 18, 2003 3:07 PM
|If you actually know anyone with that much money to blow on French wine, he got such a great deal because no one else wants it. Get it? I get my news from the WSJ and the NY Times as well as many other news worthy sources. I want to know why those that support dismantling Saddams WMD are considered jingoistic and war mongers?
We will see how this shakes out in a matter of hours. The World will be a better place without Saddam running Iraq and supporting terrorism that threatens us all. You too will be better off for it, though you and those like you will never admit it. Kind of like the Rosy O'Donnel syndrome, "don't buy guns", just go out and hire someone to carry it for you. You bleeding heart liberals are all alike. Trash the US when it suits you. Just like that traitor Clinton and that looser of a President Jimmy "Chicklet Teeth" Carter. They are both no better that Hannoi Jane in my book. If you want to be a Communist go to a country full of them like France. I am sure you will be welcome with open arms. Yaeh right!
I will never grow up as long as I keep riding my bike!
|you're out your mind.||inallston|
Mar 18, 2003 7:56 PM
|Your blind support of Bush is amazing. He's nothing but a draft dodger, cokehead, poor business man, spoiled child of priviledge who's heading this country into seriously dangerous territory where daddies money isn't going to help him when he f*cks up.|
|i mean, out of your mind||inallston|
Mar 18, 2003 7:58 PM
|I just had a baguette for lunch - damn they make good bread ! nm||climbo|
Mar 18, 2003 10:38 AM
|don't forget where the best grain for baguette came from, eh! nm||Spunout|
Mar 18, 2003 11:46 AM
|nah, you lost me, did I miss a joke ? nm||climbo|
Mar 18, 2003 12:33 PM
|nope. I buy what works||ctisevn|
Mar 18, 2003 3:23 PM
|and alot of it is French. My fixie has michelins in the winter and hutchinsons right now. time atacs too. Ill be buying French products more frequently in the future because of this too.|
|I ride a Look with Mavics and Michelins||filtersweep|
Mar 18, 2003 3:26 PM
|-and I'm glad they have the balls to stand up to the US- there is no way anyone can sensically compare Hussein to Hitler|
|I ride the same as you, plus Mektronics. Shoot me now!||look271|
Mar 19, 2003 11:09 AM
|Plus I just bought the Dixie Chicks "Home". Guess I'm just a commie pinko f@gg@t.|| |