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Spoke Lacing(20 posts)

Spoke Lacingtxcross
Mar 1, 2003 9:33 AM
I just bought a set of Gipiemme Tecno 32's. Looking at the wheels the spokes don't appear to be "laced" (none of the spokes touch each other) The description states that they are 32 hole with a 3 lace pattern. Is this something I should worry about or are these wheels/hubs designed to be built like this.

Thanks
Huh???Alexx
Mar 1, 2003 10:08 AM
Post a pic-you aren't being too clear.
Pictureal0
Mar 1, 2003 12:54 PM
It wasn't I who have posted original message, but anyway...
This is a picture of rear wheel. More (but not much more) delails can be found at http://www.iscaselle.com (the manufacturer site). I wish to add that my son (6'4'', 185lb) ride 24-spoke version of these wheels (Techno 024) for a 3 months (approx 1200miles) without any troubles.
Sure looks like 3x to meAlexx
Mar 1, 2003 2:11 PM
2 under, 1 over. Just like every other properly built 3x wheel in the world. What exactly WERE you expecting???
Here is the problemtxcross
Mar 1, 2003 2:29 PM
Pictures from the web show 3x 2 under 1 over which is what I expected. The problem is the wheels I was delivered are not. I will post pictures soon.
Here is the problemcurlybike
Mar 1, 2003 4:19 PM
Not having the spoke go under 1 could reduce clearance at the Der. cage and you might end up with pinging under load in low gear. This could be catastrophic if the cage gets dragged into the wheel. Yuck!
picturetxcross
Mar 1, 2003 6:27 PM
Looks to me like none of the spokes intersect.
re: Spoke Lacingcurlybike
Mar 1, 2003 12:09 PM
Radial spoking(no crosses) is ok on the front. If there are no spoke crossings on the rear wheel, 1 side should have crossings at least, that is not good.
Is this what you're saying?Spoke Wrench
Mar 1, 2003 12:16 PM
Most wheelbuilders build a three cross wheel so that each spoke goes over two and under one. It sounds to me like you're saying yours go over three straight to the rim. If that's the case, I've seen lots of wheels that were built that way.

I don't have an opinion as to whether it's as good or not, but I bet somebody will.
Yes, I thinktxcross
Mar 1, 2003 1:11 PM
If you follow the spoke from the hub to the rim at no point will any of the spokes actually touch eachother.

I am working today :( but should be able to put a picture up later this evening.
Not a killer defect, but not greatKerry
Mar 1, 2003 4:15 PM
The idea behind having the spokes touch is to distribute the load better between spokes. The contact point allows some of the spoke forces to be shifted to the contacting spoke. It is generally accepted to be the way to build wheels. Not having this suggests perhaps a machine built wheel that was easier to do than with the over/under technique. All that said, a well built wheel without the under cross will be better than a poorly built wheel with the under cross.
Come on now53T
Mar 1, 2003 4:55 PM
A spoke crossing another will transfer load to it? That's crazy talk. The only way two spokes in the same plane touching will transfer a radial force is if one is moving and there is friction between them. Spokes don't move that much and the radial force transmitted from one to the other is as good as zero.
re: Come on nowcyclopathic
Mar 2, 2003 2:52 AM
it does. spokes are not in the same plane they're slightly bent at contact and they laced at diff flange sides. In crossed pair pulling trailing spoke straightens it and transfers load to opposite.
Nothing Wrong With These!!....Ligon
Mar 1, 2003 12:49 PM
Here is a picture of the wheels you are describing. If this is indeed what you have there is no need for concern, they look like 3 cross to me.

Hope this Helps,
Ligon

If the picture did not load here's the link:
http://www.iscaselle.com/Catalog/Language1/Default.asp?Template=ElencoUK.html&F=name&V='TECNO%20032%20R'&F=id_Category&V=1
Wow53T
Mar 1, 2003 4:51 PM
That picture has been doctored to erase the crossing areas of the spokes. What gives?
re: don't worrycyclopathic
Mar 2, 2003 4:04 AM
Iscaselle build wheels with some really weird patterns (I've seen wheel build in what appeared to be modified Crow's foot) they should now it better.

The idea behind "no lacing" on what is otherwise standard x3 pattern is that spokes are not bent so no need to relive stress when wheel built so wheel stays true. Advantage for machine build.

The reason on traditional build spokes overlay is that when drive force applied trailing spokes stretch and leading spokes shorten. Overlaying causes leading spokes to bend more and reduces shortening. Keep in mind that lacing technique was developed when spokes were not made out of high grade stainless steel and they stretched more.

My guess Iscaselle compensates lack of overlay with higher tention. I would watch for non-drive leading spokes, those are the least tensioned and prone to break at J-bend.
How about this?Spoke Wrench
Mar 2, 2003 8:20 AM
I keep hearing people say low spoke count wheels need more tension, radially spoked wheels need more tension and now spokes that don't intersect need more tension. I've heard the theory that you should tension the spokes until the rim starts to buckle then back 'em off a bit. I've even heard the theory that a wheel with half as many spokes should have twice as much tension on each one.

Here's my problem with all of those statements. My personal experience has been that the factor that most often limits how much tension you can build into a wheel is nipple/rim friction. In other words, eventually I reach the point where I start to round out the nipples. It doesn't take a huge amount of tension to reach that point either. I know because I check with a tensiometer.

So how does one go about increasing the tension?
How about this?curlybike
Mar 2, 2003 10:56 AM
If you really want to increase the tension in a rear wheel, specifically a rim with a taller profile, lace the wheel in your normal manner and pretighten the nipples until they just hide the threads on the square drive side of the nipple. Then tighten the drive side to the normal tension that you use on a completed wheel, keeping the wheel true radially and laterally. Now finish the wheel to the proper dish using the non drive nipples. This will give much higher tension without stripping the drive side nipples. You may have to adjust these tensions a little, if this causes the hub to blow apart after a while. I have seen this happen on the new design Campy. This is a method suggested by Gerd Schraner in the book "art of Wheelbuilding" .
Please address all comments to him, as I am just the messenger. Your results may vary!!!!!!!!!
re: tentioncyclopathic
Mar 2, 2003 4:49 PM
There's an Demon Rinard article on wheel stiffness http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/ take a look. He claims that after some limit increasing tension doesn't make stiffer wheel and it seems comply to basic physics.

There're 2 problems with rear wheel: first dishing (reduces tension on non-drive side) and twisting (tensions trailing and releases leading spokes). Some strong guys actually break leading spokes on non-drive side because they twist wheel enough for them to get loose and it stresses J-bend. All I am saying that this lower limit will be higher on non-laced rear wheel.

When truing wheel you need to set up tension a bit higher then lower limit, just in case if it goes untrue. Tensioning heck out of wheel is counter productive and puts more stress on hub flange, spoke, nipple and rim.

Problem with low spoke count wheels that unfortunately you have only few spokes to play with and you have to put alot of tension to fix wheel. No surprise any shop mechanic I spoke to dislikes working on them.
Thanks Everyonetxcross
Mar 2, 2003 6:02 AM
I know my question was not worded very well and I appreciate all of the responses. I am going to ride them for a while and see how they hold up. I took it for a short ride last night and they roll and feel alot better than my Mavic T221's with Tiagra hubs.

I will probably call the folks at Gita Bikes (Gipiemme's US distributer) and see what they have to say.

Thanks again!