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Why no 11-25?(38 posts)

Why no 11-25?Brad S
Feb 27, 2003 10:27 AM
Why doesn't any cassette manufacturer make an 11-25 cassette? That would be the perfect cassette for me if it existed, as I live in Boulder and ride some steep hills in the Rockies, but can also use the 11 in quite a few races/very fast downhills. I know I could probably cobble one together from loose cogs, but it wouldn't shift as good as a ready made one since the shifting ramps would not all line up.

I currently run Campy 9 speed, and use both Shimano and Campy wheels. I don't think Campy makes an 11-25 10spd cassette either, which is the whole reason for extra cogs in my opinion, to give you more range. I would also think an 11-25 would be perfect for pros in the mountains also, especially with everyone trying to copy Lance's high cadence climbing style these days. And even if the front guys don't use a 25, I know guys in the gruppeto do (or wish they did at times).
Easy fix.SnowBlind
Feb 27, 2003 10:48 AM
yeah Campy ought to make it, but you can get the small cogs independently and make your own combo.
You could always start selling them on Ebay...
I might even buy one.
re: Why no 11-25?Spunout
Feb 27, 2003 11:08 AM
With the Miche cogset, it can happen. Does anyone have experience with Miche cassettes? Do they work?

I've looked at the charts, and damned if I can see a way to build a 11-25. Can't get by that 19-23 jump with the mounted cogs.

Do you guys spin-out an 11? Get a 12-25 instead, and have the hallowed 16 cog. In fact, you should be able to fit the 23-26 (from the 13-26 set) to get a 12-26, even though Campag says they don't match up, it will still work like a dream.

Or, buy a 13-29, pull out the 16 and put on a 12. 12-29!
re: Why no 11-25?Brad S
Feb 27, 2003 12:47 PM
I have done the Campy 9 speed 12-26 thing (using a 13-26 and a 12-23), but since the shifting ramps don't line up, shifting from the 17 to the 19 isn't smooth at all. Sometimes I have to shift up twice, then shift down once to get the 19. So that definitely is "like a dream".

I don't know if I have ever spun out an 11, but I can definitely spin out a 12 in some Pro-Am races and very fast downhills (such as Gila TT).
if u really need gears you can always..Wise
Feb 27, 2003 11:16 AM
get a triple and run a tight 11-21 cassette
because no one who works for a living needs an 11. I used tobill
Feb 27, 2003 11:54 AM
think that an 11 was good for those long downhills, but if you're going that fast so that you're spinning out a 12, you either need to work on your spin or you're wasting your time, because you're better off tucking aero and going terminal velocity.
I don't mean this to sound as patronizing as this, particularly because descents in the east, where I live, are nothing like descents in the west. But, in addition to saying what I believe, I have heard the same from others.
I'd think about it. I had an 11-25 (it was a Wheels MFG converter cassette), and I have an 11-23, and I use the 11 pretty much only when I'm cross-chained. In other words, by mistake, only in the little ring.
YMMVJS Haiku Shop
Feb 27, 2003 12:07 PM
11/32 on my 'cross bike (triple), also used for mountainous road rides. i've used the 11 on many occasions. i can also spin like a cake mixer on my ss. strong tailwinds on flat ground are another instance when i've used 52x11. i have used and been thankful for all 27 combinations, on may occasions.
because no one who works for a living needs an 11. I used toBrad S
Feb 27, 2003 12:50 PM
Bill, I understand you have your opinion, but your experience definitely doesn't apply to everyone. Yes, I have spun out the 12 in the middle of a pack, and wished for an 11. I can spin with the best of them (except pure trackies), but spinning over 110 for long periods is simply inefficient in a road race. There are plenty of guys who "work for a living" that are strong enough to need an 11 at times.

And that saying about tucking if you spin out a 12 instead of needing an 11 is complete BS in lots of cases. Ever done the Tour of Gila TT? If you have, you would know exactly what I mean.
let's evaluate that statement....joekm
Feb 27, 2003 1:14 PM
Take a typical road bike w/ 700x23 tires running 53x11 gear. I would think that 140 rpm is a realistic "spin-out" cadence for a lot of people (yea, I know, several of you will tell me that they can spin faster).

Anyway, that's somewhere in the neighborhood of 53 mph, hardly outlandish for an extended downhill.

Point is, there may be several people who have use for an 11.

That being said, I run a 11-23 cassette and have on occasion wondered if changing my 11 cog for a 16 cog would be better suited for day-to-day riding, especially since I seem to spend a lot of time between my 17 and 15 cog nowadays.
yeah but if you're over 50 then why even pedal? (nm)ColnagoFE
Feb 27, 2003 1:28 PM
I'm glad someone did the math, because I haven't a clue. I justbill
Feb 27, 2003 2:45 PM
know that, in my last road race, which was pretty flat, I ran a 12-25. It was pretty fast for a Cat 4/5 race -- we were cruising 'long about 35 in some sections (I think -- too hairy to look at the computer). I may have used my 12, I'm not sure about that even, but whatever I had was plenty. I just think that a 12 should be long enough for almost any race (no one who actually talks to me is turning an 11 in a sprint), and if I'm on a descent there's no way I'm turning the pedals at 50 mph -- there's no way I'm turning the pedals beyond about 45, maybe less. I must say that I've never hit 45 in a race, so maybe I shouldn't be saying, but very, very few people have much need for an 11.
I know that in one last beautiful uphill sprint in the Giro, I think, some monster, I forget who, had turned a 53-11 to win it, and Paul and Phil were crowing about it.
numbers hereDougSloan
Feb 27, 2003 5:12 PM
http://www.midcalracing.com/gears.xls

For racing the 508, with very long hills, I got spun out in my 56x11 on my time trial bike, and so did another team mate in his 61x11. People are a little too egocentric when thinking about these things. Circumstances can be vastly different than what some might think.

Doug
Explanation of the numbers (for those interested)...joekm
Feb 28, 2003 6:32 AM
Using the book that came with my cycle computer (Vetta V100HR), I get 2.105 meters for the circumference of a 700x23 wheel. So;

[mile/hr]*[hr/60 min]*[5280 ft/mile]*[meter/3.281 ft]*[rev/2.105 meter]

= [5280/(60*3.281*2.105)]*[rev/min]

=> mph(12.74) = rpm at the rear wheel

or, mph = [cadence/12.74]*[chainwheel/cog]

So, for the above example:

mph = [140/12.74]*[53/11] = 52.95
bill...DougSloan
Feb 27, 2003 5:08 PM
You must not have ridden around here. The hills are gigantic. Even on the more gentle grades, an 11 can make it more comfortable to go 40 mph instead of either spinning faster in a 12 or just coasting at 35 mph.

Doug
re: Why no 11-25?desmo
Feb 27, 2003 12:44 PM
Cuz mashers that can wind out an 11 on flats don't need a 25 when they could grind up hills in a 21! Seriously, not a bad idea but I don't think it's really needed. As somebody else said, perfect your spin or tuck for downhills. Or you could go to a 54 big ring for more top end with out loosing the climbing gears using the small ring.
I'd rather have the 16ColnagoFE
Feb 27, 2003 1:29 PM
I think you'll like having the 16 more than the advantage 11 would give you. If you really need the 11 go with a 11x23 and learn to deal with the hills.
I'd rather have the 16Brad S
Feb 27, 2003 2:28 PM
I can deal with hills just fine, but I make better power when I can spin a 25 up steep slopes than mash a 23. One of the big advantages of the Power Tap. Plus, my legs are supple enough to handle changes in normal cadence that I don't need a 16. Sure I would take one, but would rather the flexibility of a 11 small cog and a 25 for big steep hills.
that's coolColnagoFE
Feb 27, 2003 2:52 PM
I'd prefer the 16 so I have a 12x25...and for BIG climbs and long rides I use a 13x26.
you still would; equivalent using small ringDougSloan
Feb 28, 2003 11:12 AM
52x16=86.5 gear inches
39x12=86.5 gear inches

53x16=88.1 (still close)

If you don't mind using your small ring, you'll still have the 16 equivalent.

I'd rather have the extra range, especially knowing I have the duplicate gear if I use the small ring.

Doug
39x12 might put an excessive tweak on the chain though (nm)joekm
Feb 28, 2003 12:10 PM
An 11 tooth cog is the XL condom of the roadbike world....DaveLobster
Feb 27, 2003 3:04 PM
No-one wants to admit they don't really need it.
An 11 tooth cog is the XL condom of the roadbike world....Brad S
Feb 27, 2003 3:12 PM
Dave, you might not need one (or be strong enough to need one), but there are those of us who do. And it really doesn't have anything to do with ego, just the simple fact that at times I would be more efficient with it. Sure you can spin a 12 out to 140 rpms or so if needed, but that is not sustainable for long periods of time. I am most efficient when my cadence is between 90 - 110. Above or below that I lose power compared with being able to stay within my optimal cadence. One big plus of using a Power Tap hub!

Now I'm not saying I need an 11 for every ride, but I need it enough throughout the year that it would be nice to have. I don't like changing out cassettes so I would just like to slap on an 11-25 and use it up. But thanks for your enlightening comment anyhow!
I'll admit I don't need the 11...ColnagoFE
Feb 27, 2003 3:23 PM
but don't diss those XL condoms!..... ;)
B***S***lonefrontranger
Feb 27, 2003 3:40 PM
You don't live where there are 30 minute long 50 mph+ descents, do you?
50mph = 133 rpm in a 53/11...C-40
Feb 27, 2003 4:08 PM
Everyone seems to have forgotten basic math.

Using a 53/12 instead of a 53/11 requires only an 8-9 rpm higher cadence at the same speed.

I've never ridden the type of descent that you describe, but I think most folks would be coasting, not pedaling at a 130+ cadence.

I'll be a front ranger myself by August, I can't wait to drive to the mountains and try it.
50mph = 133 rpm in a 53/11...climbo
Feb 27, 2003 4:18 PM
i have to agree with LFR, on a good downhill or a very fast section with a tailwind, an 11 is nice to have ! cadence issues aside and all that crap, it's just god to have it there when you feel the need.
good to have, but...C-40
Feb 27, 2003 5:09 PM
If you can only pedal comfortably at 110 rpm, the 53/11 will only take you up to 41 mph, then it's still time to coast. A 53/12 will take you up to 38 mph. Unless you're on a very moderate descent, the chances of staying above 38, but below 41 for an extended period are slim, IMO.

If you're running a 9 speed setup, you'll sacrifice the 16T cog to get an 11, unless you can climb mountains with an 11-21. I'd much rather have the 16. With campy 10, I can have an 11-23 with a 16 tooth cog. I think I'll stick to the 12-25 with the 16T cog.
better yet! 53/39/30 with an 11-23.....C-40
Feb 27, 2003 5:18 PM
Now there's the perfect solution. With Campy 10 you can have an 11T, a 16T and a low gear that a bit lower than a 39/29 (the lowest Campy double ratio). I can see this combo in my future.
better yet! 53/42/30 with an 11-23.....mhinman
Feb 28, 2003 6:09 AM
I have this setup, and I must say I like it, I got the gearing for the steep climbs, and I also have the 11 for the moderate downhills where I can push the 11 faster than I can coast. I have a continuous 1 tooth step from 17-11 and 2 tooth increment up to 23 (23, 21, 19, 17) note: campy has a 53/42/30, not a 53/39/30.
darn!....C-40
Feb 28, 2003 10:23 AM
Someone posted that the 53/39/30 was coming out, but the Campy website says no, only 53/42/30 or 50/40/30.

Shimano has the 53/39/30 combo, but I'd be hard pressed to put anything Shimano on my bike.

Do you find the 42/23 combo to be useable, or do you only go down to the 42/21 and then shift to the 30/17 for the next lowest ratio?
everyone runs what they likeclimbo
Feb 27, 2003 5:27 PM
and yes, you may not need it, but Dave Lobsters comment is a long way off. Most people I ride with at the Cat 2/3 level use an 11.
agree; I use it almost every time I ride, and even spin out nmDougSloan
Feb 27, 2003 4:33 PM
That implies that you have 25 mile climbs too.MB1
Feb 27, 2003 4:40 PM
True in Colorado (and all the western states) there are some really long descents. I fondly recall a 40 mile descent off of Volcano National Park in Hawaii that I did in under an hour (nice tailwind that day) completly spun out in a 53X13.

To me the best part is always those nifty climbs that take you to those descents. Can you imagine living near the top of one of those long climbs and having to finish with the climb instead of the descent. Probably no fun at all but you would get in great shape.
there are around hereDougSloan
Feb 27, 2003 5:05 PM
There aren't unbroken 25 mile climbs, but I can ride from here at nearly sea level to 9,300 feet and back in a day, with almost all up the first half for about 65 miles. It's nice to have both gear extremes, especially to cruise along with the cars on the highway at 45 mph, even passing some (cars just can't hang in the corners).

Doug
Descending in a raceBipedZed
Feb 28, 2003 6:54 AM
I usually run a 12x23 for racing and it suits me for 99.9% of the races, but we have an 85 mile road race that is essentially 20 miles up, 20 miles down to a turn around so the last 20 miles is all downhill. I was in a group of 8 that was trying to catch the lead group so we were doing rotating pulls at 55+ mph and I was really spinning out my 12. Next year I will use an 11x23 since this race is now the State Championship road race. My teammate in the lead group trying catch the 2-man break said his group never got below 60mph on the descent and he was spinning out his 11.

At the Tour of the Gila TT I spun out a 55/11 on the downhill. But again these are 2 races out of 50 where I wanted an 11.
Don't be fooled53T
Feb 28, 2003 11:50 AM
If you spin out your 12, it is not evidence that you need a 12, or an 11. If someone else spins out an 11 it is not evidence of anything. On a good downhill, with a wheel to follow, you will spin out anything you bring, therefore you don't need an 11!. A 25 on the other hand can be very useful.
You can even get an 11-27 if you want ...sacheson
Feb 27, 2003 3:58 PM
http://www.velomax.com/site/WheelsMFG/Campy10.htm It will even work with your Shimano hubs, but you have to get 10 speed.
10sp is easy fixcyclopathic
Feb 27, 2003 6:26 PM
just replace 2 indexing ratchets in shifter

Oh, weight this is new for '03 ;)