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Looking to drop a bundle on a new ride - need advice(20 posts)

Looking to drop a bundle on a new ride - need adviceThe Human G-Nome
Nov 24, 2002 8:18 PM
there's several different italian makes i'm considering, but i'd like feedback on the material. all the bikes i'm looking at have carbon stays and i want opinions from people who have ridden both the Dedacciai U2 and the Deda SC 6110. i've heard the scandium rides closer to steel which is comforting as that's all i've ever really ridden. the U2 would obviously be lighter (even stiffer?), but would i be sacrificing any comfort. i'd really appreciate hearing from anyone who has experience riding on these materials, either one or the other or both. thanks.
re: Looking to drop a bundle on a new ride - need adviceBrad S
Nov 24, 2002 9:32 PM
Well, let me start by saying Deda SC61.10a tubing is NOT alloyed with Scandium. This is a common misconception (it's amazing how many high-end bike shops think this also), but Easton holds the patent on aluminum alloyed w/ a trace amount of Scandium. In fact SC61.10a isn't even 6000 series tubing, it is actually 7000 series tubing that doesn't need to be heat treated, only artifically aged. I think Dedaccia was trying to confuse people when they picked that name.

That being said, I wouldn't say for a fact that Scandium rides like steel, it's really in the tube design (butting profile, wall thickness, tube geometry). Early Scandium bikes had very small diameter (for aluminum) tubes, which did provide a bit more of a forgiving ride than is typical of aluminum. However, a lot of those early Scandium bikes also broke. I have a Merckx Team SC which is Scandium tubes, but is more oversized and robust (for better durability), and it is a pretty rigid ride, very aluminum like. Much harsher and more ridid than other aluminum bikes I have ridden (Altec2, Deda 7003, etc).

But back to your original question, differences and characteristics of U2 and Sc61.10a. Both are very good tubesets, depends on your application. If you are light (<150ish) and ride a smaller frame (<57 cm), and want a very light climbing bike, U2 would be an excellent choice. Just be aware that compromises are always made, and in the case of U2 that compromise would be longevity. It has very thin-tubes to make it that light, and they will fatigue quicker than a thicker/heavier tubeset under the same rider (builder skill being equal of course).

SC61.10a is more of a workhorse tubeset, better suited to bigger riders (taller and/or heavier), but it will weigh a bit more than a U2 frameset (probably 1/3 to 1/2 lb difference). It will probably be slightly more rigid than U2 (assuming same size tube diameters and tube geometry of course) due to it's slightly thicker tube walls. But I think a properly executed SC61.10a frame will ride very smooth, as it is still a pretty light tubeset as far as those things go.

Of course you cannot take the builder out of the equation. Dario Pegoretti is able to offer U2 frames in big sizes (up to 62 cm) without weight limits. How? Well, he was the first builder to work with U2 tubes, and is an expert TIG welder who only welds w/ 1 pass and heats the tubes as little as he has to. He also builds with a U2 tubeset that has slightly larger wall thickness than most builders use. Therefore, he doesn't have to heat treat U2, but can get away with only having to artifically age it, which again avoids having to sink more heat into the tubes (which in the case of heat treatment can cause frame alignment problems). If you are a bigger rider who really lusts after U2 tubing, check out the Pegoretti CCMPK (or whatever he calls it). Or if you would rather durability, check out the Pegoretti Fina Estampa, which is built with SC61.10a and is the frameset I am about to custom order for myself(I'm 6'3", 165 lbs and ride a 61 cm frame).

So the best thing to do is to figure out what you want based on your morphology, your expectations (super light, durable, rigid, etc.), and of course your budget. Also make sure if you get a stock frame that it fits. A light bike that doesn't fit isn't any fun, I can assure you of that from personal experience. But the builder should then be able to point you in the right direction as far as what tubeset(s) he feels would suit your needs and wants.

Hope that helps.
re: Looking to drop a bundle on a new ride - need adviceThe Human G-Nome
Nov 24, 2002 10:05 PM
thank you very much! that is actually the most thorough and well thought out response i have ever received on this messageboard, and certainly much more then i expected. as you alluded, many people are calling Deda SC61.10 "scandium" including one of my LBS that carries some bikes built with that material.

since your opinion is obviously worthwhile, i'll take my question further and ask about brand/model. i've pretty much narrowed my choice down to a DeRosa Planet made with Deda SC61.10 of course, and a Ciocc Hurricane made with U2. from what i've been able to research, both have pretty impecable reputations, but perhaps you know otherwise.
re: Looking to drop a bundle on a new ride - need adviceBrad S
Nov 25, 2002 7:36 AM
Unfortunately I don't have any personal riding experience with either De Rosa or Ciocc, but know people that have owned both brands.

I do know that GITA Sports (former US distributor) stopped caring De Rosa a couple of years ago because of warranty issues that De Rosa was not taking care of. I have talked to employees of GITA personally about this. Sinclair imports is now the US distributor, so you might want to talk to them. I have a teammate who broke a Planet a couple of years ago (the downtube broke clean through at the shifter bosses - obviously a stress fracture due) while in a race, luckily it was on uphill and he didn't go down or get hurt. However, I do think De Rosa used a different grade of Al for the Planet back then. And I am sure De Rosa is probably gotten better at working w/ aluminum these days, and they sure are pretty bikes. So I'm not going to tell you whether to buy one or not, just make sure you are comfortable with the warranty on whatever you buy (I think 2-3 years on lightweight aluminum is an acceptable warranty).

Have never heard anything bad about the Ciocc, and again they are a pedigreed Italian manufacturer and make gorgeous bikes. Again, just make sure you are within the weight limits of the U2 frameset, and realize you will be lucky to get 2 (maybe 3) years of hard riding (7,000+ miles) out of this frame.
derosa planet / UD / and DualSmoothie
Nov 25, 2002 11:42 AM
I haven't ridden the Ciocc but I might be able to help with the Derosa.

The planet rides like a dream. Very stiff bike but it doesn't beat you up too much. I'm coming off a full Ti bike so the differences were very apparent to me. I was looking for a stiffer ride with more snap. What I really liked about the planet was how it leaped out of corners. No lag, no delay, just direct power transfer to the pavement. Also the Derosa geometry is comfy and aggressive. Budget and riding type steered me towards the planet. Although I think I could have been happy on the Merak or the UD.

I didn't log enough time on the parking lot rides with the UD to really give a fair comparison. At 150lbs. I was under the weight limit, but I was still worried about fatigue life of the tubes. They looked mighty skinny. While riding it I couldn't notice any flex so derosa knows what they are doing when they put these frames together.

For the 03 lineup Derosa has changed things around a bit. The King (full carbon) is still top of the line, but the UD was replaced by the DUAL (U2 tubing with carbon seat AND chain stays) than comes the Merak (no alessio team colors this year - they made a whole new frame just for that) than the planet frame.

You can't go wrong with any of these bikes - derosa makes an amazing ride. If you need more info on how it rides, build details or pics or whatever let me know.

Also don't worry so much about the weight. Deda SC61.10 might be a "workhorse" tubing but it's still fairly light. I got my ride down to 16/high 15lbs range pretty easily with standard parts - nothing fancy.



-click on the thumbnails to open a larger pic-

Top tube view:



Carbon rear stay:



Full bike:

off topic: smoothie how do you like those wheels?Frith
Nov 25, 2002 11:54 AM
Thought about getting a pair. They seem like good value. How do they ride?
Frith - comments on AmClassic 420 wheelsetSmoothie
Nov 25, 2002 1:48 PM
I posted a long thing about the 420's on the components board about a month or more back. Compared them to a pair of K's and spinergys on both my Ti and planet frames.

Basically if you get a spoke count that matches your weight they perform great! Very strong wheelset for me. I went 18/24 (standard build) with DT revos. Bought them through Mike at oddsandendos.com

600g front wheel, 809g rear wheel - they might be a little lighter than that since they weighed my pair with the shimano cassette body and axle and the campy body weighs a tiny bit less. Also I hear the stickers weigh close to 30grams - I haven't had time to peel them off yet and verify that claim. But they are huge stickers...and rather ugly IMHO :)

Anyways enough about weight - they ride very smooth. Not a very harsh ride. I like to try and balance the overall stiffness of my ride with the combo of the frame, wheels, tires, and PSI. The K's where too harsh and the 420's seem softer - but that's a good thing. I still can't get them to flex or feel mushy under power or tight corners. I'm hoping they will perform well in the mountains next spring - the causeways and bridges here aren't long enough descents to gauge that properly.

Search around in the archives for my ramblings on them - and feel free to ask him any questions :)

here is some pics to help sway you to the dark side!

Side profile - front rim (sorry for the glare flash went off)


Front Rim
how is that braking surface?collinsc
Nov 25, 2002 2:37 PM
smooth? how are the seams?
ahh the famous seam ques...Smoothie
Nov 25, 2002 3:22 PM
The braking surface is smooth - I get a good, firm contact with my pads against it. The black surface is supposed to wear off and get shinny like normal rims as you use it more. I don't brake much and haven't noticed any wear on the black surface.

Now for the famous seam! This conversion pops up alot on the message boards around the net. I guess it's one of those things that either bugs the hell out of you, or you shrug it off.

If you run your finger across the rim you can feel the seam - and if you look close enough you can see it. But I'm talking about really getting close to the rim. It doesn't raise up enough off the surface of the rim to feel it during braking. Even when you run your finger over the seam it doesn't register much of a bump. The seams on the 420's are better than some rims I've had/ridden - for example my Velocity mtn bike rims. I can see and really feel the seams on those rims. Excellent rims, but the seams really bug me on that set.

All in all I still believe the 420's are a great deal for people seeking a good strong wheelset that is semi-aero and easy on the grams. The price point is tough to beat (as long as you don't order directly from Amclassic) and they perform well. Just my thoughts but i've been happy with them.

I had a tough time getting a good pic of the seam but here are attempts:

Seam on front rim:
thankscollinsc
Nov 25, 2002 3:28 PM
the appearance of seams doesnt bother me so much as the feel. if i can feel it through the brake lever (or worse hear it on every revolution) it drives me nuts. I have a pair of velocity aerohead wheels built by mike garcia that are really great, but the front has a noisemaking seam that i have to find a cure for.

thinking about these guys as perhaps a future set. thanks for all the info and your pictures are great.
derosa planet / UD / and DualThe Human G-Nome
Nov 25, 2002 12:50 PM
hey, thanks for the advice and the pics! i've been lusting after that Planet for all of six months now and one of my LBS had one in stock for awhile. the thing is just sheer beauty. i've only recently started considering Ciocc as an option, but it's hard to find very many riders who have ever seen one (let alone ridden one). they seem very comparable, but the Ciocc's are considerably less money. the Hurricane compares to the Dual as it has U2 and carbon stays, but the price difference is VERY significant.
pricing - some options...Smoothie
Nov 25, 2002 1:20 PM
yeah I feel you on the pricing structure. The DeRosa name doesn't come cheap. And Sinclair imports really loves the profit margin they are making state-side.

Try to see if you can order it overseas. You won't pay VAT tax - so subtract about 18% off the price, shipping isn't too bad (about the same or less than your local sales tax would end up being) and customs should come out to 3% for the frame price. Factor this into the already lower pricing overseas and you come out pretty well.

Also you can find Campy record 10 groups (new 02/03) for 1K to 1,100 fairly easily. Or dura-ace if that's your flavor.

Not sure how the Ciocc pricing works out but you should be able to find simlair deals out there. Just be 110% sure about your sizing. And the other problem is warrenty. It might be more annoying when buying overseas. Not so much with DeRosa (they could care less where the frame comes from) but with shipping costs and time spent getting the frame back to the shop you bought it from for warrenty problems.
another thing - derosa paintSmoothie
Nov 25, 2002 1:26 PM
Also one other thing to consider - DeRosa paint is VERY SOFT. My front derail already put a depresion in the paint. You can't see it when it's mounted, but I recently took the front derail off and noticed it.

My water bottle carriers also left impressions in the paint. And the zip ties I use for my speed and cadance sensors also left marks. Again you can't see it when they are mounted so it doesn't really matter.

I did use those clear plastic "dots" for cable rub points and a clear chain stay protector. I think the brand was "Stay Tough Protector"

On the other hand I haven't gotten any rock chips yet and the frame cleans up fast and easy. Just wipe it down with a soft rag. The white does pick up greese though, but so what? The paint looks nice either way and I care more about how it rides :)
re: Looking to drop a bundle on a new ride - need advicegeeker
Nov 25, 2002 5:55 AM
Great post. Sorry for nitpicking, but I've been researching Pegorettis (specifically the Palosanto). Competitivecyclist.com has a lot of Pegoretti info, and they state that the CCKMP (U2 tubing) has a recommended rider weight limit of 180#.
re: Looking to drop a bundle on a new ride - need adviceBrad S
Nov 25, 2002 7:44 AM
Yes, I have read on Competitive Cyclists website that the Pegoretti CCKMP has a 180# weight limit (and that is probably good advice for them to give out). But they also state that SC61.10a aluminum is alloyed with Scandium! So obviously they don't know everything they think they do. However, I have spoken to them on the phone before and they are nice guys and I wouldn't have a problem buying from them if I knew what I wanted. However, they don't deal w/ Dario directly, they go through GITA on any type of custom deal or any customer questions. I have bought from and spoken at length with Matthew of Tiramisu Imports (UK distributor) about Pegorettis, and Matthew is over at Dario's shop probably about once a month or so, so he is a great source to fill me in on the details.

Dario does not impose a weight limit (within reason of course, no 250 lb dude should ride this frame) on his U2 frame, but at the same time I think anyone over 180 - 190 lbs would probably be more satisfied performance wise with the slightly beefier and slightly more rigid Fina Estampa or Que Nao Se Ve. If I weighed over 200 I would go w/ the oversized Que Nao Se Ve.
Footnote: it's CCKMP (for "cocaine can't kill my pain" I think).djg
Nov 25, 2002 6:30 AM
He plasters his bikes with music (and music lyric) references.
re: Looking to drop a bundle on a new ride - need adviceSpunout
Nov 25, 2002 4:43 AM
Just wondering, if you've only ridden steel in the past, and if you want to replicate the ride of steel...Why not get steel?
re: Looking to drop a bundle on a new ride - need adviceThe Human G-Nome
Nov 25, 2002 9:07 AM
because i've decided to enter the dark, deranged world of the weight weenie. i will still own steel bikes, but i'm looking to add to my stable.
more on ScandiumThe Human G-Nome
Nov 25, 2002 10:58 AM
this week'd Cycling Weekly (U.K.) also makes several references to Deda SC 6110 being scandium.
Scandium is basically ALColnagoFE
Nov 25, 2002 1:35 PM
with scandium as an additive to stiffen it. I think it's a bit disingenous of the industry to treat it as a separate metal. I mean do they call 3.25 TI vanadium or AL even though it does have AL and Vanadium in it? It has pretty much the same chars as good AL does.