|Wilier Alpe D'huez bike good or bad?||OZ1|
Nov 18, 2002 8:20 PM
|What do you think on this model and on the company
|I noticed recently that Maestro UK has stopped selling them . .||Look381i|
Nov 19, 2002 4:06 AM
|apparently because of quality problems.|
|blah blah blah||Duke249|
Nov 19, 2002 5:46 AM
|The Maestro thing is old news. Personally, that story doesn't hold water and seems like Maestro bad-mouthing Wilier. Wilier has a spectacular reputation in Europe and is as cutting edge as the rest of the major European manufacturers. Any test that I've ever read-Pro Cycling, Cycling Plus, Cycle Sport, Top Velo(France), Le Cycle(France), and La Bicicletta(Italy) have always raved about these bicycles. For whatever reason, they can't break into the U.S. market like the other large Euro-manufacturers. Also, whenever someone asks about them, the breakage issue is always dragged out. Has anyone here ever personally experienced breakage with these? Anyway, Wilier is an excellent company and one of their bicycles would be an excellent choice.|
|Why is Maestro less credible than cycling magazines?||Look381i|
Nov 19, 2002 3:25 PM
|It seem that your conclusion -- that a Wilier bicycle "would be an excellent choice" -- is based upon magazine reviews rather than your own experience with the full line of Wilier. It may indeed be true that the magazines are correct and Maestro is wrong, but why should a prospective buyer believe one over the other or, no offense intended, you over anyone else with an opinion? Are magazines inherently more careful in their assessments than a dealer? Do they have more experience than a dealer with a product line? Are mags the natural recipients of complaints when a frame or component fails? Are mags less likely to comment favorably about the products of current or potential advertisers or business companions? I think the answer to those questions is "no." I can see why both dealers and magazines might want to put their thumbs on the scale when asked about a manufacturer. |
Perhaps you know Maestro to be dishonest. I do not. I have read only good things about their experience, competence and service. If you know something that suggests their opinion about Wilier is insincere or libelous, please share it.
I am not familiar with all the magazines you mention, but limited experience with magazine reviews is that they report on bicycles after a few days of riding, at most, occasionally with more than one rider. Their reviews tend to be descriptive and subjective rather than objectively and scientifically analytical. I find the descriptions helpful but seldom the "evaluations."
|why does Maestro stain the rep of Wilier?||Duke249|
Nov 20, 2002 6:10 AM
|Excellent points. Basically, you're right. I am basing my argument on what these magazine writers have said and am taking that at face value. The way I see it, these are specific people giving specific opinions about a particular product. When I hear that "Maestro stopped selling em because they were breaking" this is a meaningless statement. Unlike the reviews, this is a blanket statement, not giving any specific examples, nor any other information on any particular product. Consider this-would you say that all Trek OCLV's are bad frames because they had problems with the aluminum bottom bracket insert coming loose when they first came out in the mid-90s? Would it be fair to say that Cannondales have horrible ride qualities based on the fact that my old 2.8 frame rode like a jackhammer? The answer for both is obviously no, but in the case of the Wilier, the opposite is happening.|
|Well, he carried the frames up until a year ago or so.||djg|
Nov 20, 2002 6:51 AM
|He reports that he discontinued the line because he had too many problems with frame breakage. That's pretty recent bad news, in my book.
I should say that I've had no personal experience with Wilier, save from having seen a couple over the years.
As for the Maestro report: true, that's just one dealer and there may be more to the story than he has said. And it does not identify specific models as problematic, although perhaps we could ask Mike about that. On the other hand, it's a report from a dealer who was up front and reliable in his dealings with me and a number of others on this site and who deals in a good number of frames if I'm not mistaken. His impressions of reliability may not be systematic or definitive, but I'd take them as cause for concern. The mags, on the other hand, almost never have anything to say about reliability--they get one bike, ride it a short (or very short) time and that's that.
|anyone beyond Maestro have a problem?||Duke249|
Nov 20, 2002 7:33 AM
|So why is it only Maestro coming forward with this information? Why have we never heard of any other problems through any other dealers? Any owners? I'm sure that if someone has had a problem with Wilier, they'd be very open to discuss. I think that its odd when there is only one source saying that this is a bad manufacturer and tarnishing the manufacturer's reputation.|
|Does this mean all Cannondales are bad?||Duke249|
Nov 20, 2002 9:55 AM
|I'm not sure I understand your point.||djg|
Nov 21, 2002 6:40 AM
|Somebody posted a querry about a particular frame marque.
Somebody else posted that a reputable British shop recently discontinued carrying the frame, reporting numerous problems with breakage. Somebody else posted that they had one of the frames break. Somebody else posted that they'd heard of several English shops dropping the line because of problems.
None of this is definitive proof that a given frame from Wilier is likely to be a problem. In fact, none of this is definitive proof that there were ever any materials/design/manufacturing problems at Wilier or that there was or is, in a quality control sense (a statistical picture of failure for all bikes coming off the line), a problem at Wiler (or a problem of a given magnitude). It's all anecdotal and it's the sort of information you get over the net and that you get in response to a post such as we had above. On the other hand, there don't appear to be all that many countervailing reports of how great they are either. So what are you looking for? Should people censor or self-censor anecdotal reports? (Oh sure, mine broke in three places, and so did the replacement, but I wouldn't want to mention that on the internet because it might be misleading if not presented through the filter of a validly collected sample of the range.) Should each post come with a lengthy disclaimer warning about lack of statistical validity and the dangers of the representative heuristic?
It's a fact of commercial life that people thrive on good word of mouth (inherently anecdotal) and wither with bad word of mouth. I've got no interest in panning this brand. I've got no experience with them and I've got no stock in any of their competitors. You are quite right that one frame failure does not demonstrate much of anything. Neither do three frame failures. But if it were me, and I'd heard of problems from numerous sources, I'd want to look into it or just avoid it. The market offers many, many options in road bikes. Is there some particular reason to gravitate toward this particular choice?
|My point is...||Duke249|
Nov 21, 2002 8:26 AM
|Basically, I'm in the same situation as you. I do now have a Wilier nor any other interest beyond trying to understand why they have a tarnished reputation here in the US. All I've been able to figure out is just what you've mentioned. All antecdotal information. For whatever reason this antecdotal info has stuck with Wilier for no apparent reason. Why? That's what I wonder.
I believe that because they have a small presence in the US that folks cannot associate anything with the brand beyond that they heard of a few issues in England. Because that's about all they can remember about the marque, that's the info that gets passed around. Again, by looking at that nasty CAAD7 photo I posted, why don't people start saying that CAAD7's are bad frames? Its because people here know that Cannondales are quality frames, have many different offerings and that the break in this particular photo came about due to extreme circumstances. Why is it assumed then that the Wiliers are just bad frames and didn't have their breakage result from similar circumstances as the Cannondale. My guess is that if you have a high-speed crash on any modern bicycle frame, no matter what the material, it'll be damaged. There seems to be too many assumptions without knowing the circumstances that this brand is bad.
The Wilier name has been sullied here in the US due to people perpetuating a story that they have no first-hand knowledge of. In this case, yes, I do think that people should self-censor antecdotal reports because they are passing information that is harmful on an issue that they have no clue about.
|What a sack of BS.||Eager Beagle|
Nov 21, 2002 9:01 AM
|yes, I do think that people should self-censor antecdotal reports because they are passing information that is harmful on an issue that they have no clue about.
Get off your horse mate. Honest information is honest informaton, whatever it says. No one is advising here, just presenting informtion as they have it, and giving sources as appropriate.
If you don't think you can handle that, then guess what? Don't read the board. Noone was talking to you anyway.
Why don't you ask for your subscription back?
Nov 21, 2002 10:05 AM
|Wow, I'm surprised that you show such emotion. I honestly didn't mean to get you stirred up. I thought that we were having a polite argument about a difference of views on a particular subject. Just because I don't share the same opinion as you doesn't mean that I should stop reading the board. Isn't that what a board like this is for anyway? To discuss one's views?
Also, seeing that this is a public forum of opinion, I do take it that it is open for anyone to discuss. As far as I see, no one was talking to you either. I don't see "What's your opinion of Wilier frames, Eager Beagle?"
Nov 21, 2002 1:50 PM
|So what do you expect when you tell people that they should shut up because they don't know what they are talking about. And you do I suppose? Yeah, right.
Let me make this really simple for you.
Someone posts a question. That invites responses. The poster takes or leaves them as they see fit. No one askes you for your rude censorship input. If you claim that the board is to discuss ones views, then your comments about censorship are clearly BS. Which is it?
If you bothered to actually read/think about my post, your thick rude head would realise that I just supplied some facts, and then opined - clearly opined - that I thought that the Wilier my friend has was a nice bike.
I am really sorry if that's all too much for you, but like I said, if it is, don't read in.
Nov 21, 2002 2:22 PM
|Interesting points. However, I think that you're reading a bit much into my argument and getting yourself quite stirred up. What I'm saying is that it is irresponsible to spread information on a subject that one has very little knowledge of.
Would it be responsible if I were to say that you're a short-tempered facist and that you think that if someone has an opinion that differs from yours then they're evil? No it wouldn't because I don't know you. For all I know, you could be a great person.
Another thing, why are you taking such personal offense to my statements? I never addressed your post, nor considered it during my responses. I never said that you were wrong. Actually, I thought that your original statement was very well put.
Beyond that, I hope that you can understand that people have opinions that are different from yours, that you don't have to attempt to insult those who do, and that you don't let this discussion ruin your day. It isn't ruining mine. Actually, go have a beer and chill.
|Snappy frames||Eager Beagle|
Nov 19, 2002 6:11 AM
|They have a bad reputation in the UK for breakages - many have stopped selling them. Having said that, I don't know what the problem actually was.
There was a review of one in Cycling magazine here a while back. It got a good review, but lost out the Dale Seco on parts for your money.
I know someone with one - don't know the model, but it's in that, to my mind very nice, yellow paint with the red lettering and bar tape combo. Seems like a very nice bike to me.
Nov 19, 2002 6:25 AM
|I think the problems were with the Sestriere model, which is the bike built with starship tubing. I owned one for awhile, and ended up selling it to someoone who was much lighter, and I only weigh 150. I just didn't feel comfortable on an aluminum frame that was that light. This was about a year and a half ago. I think at that time lots of companies were having trouble building with the starship tubing. Something to do with the heat treating.|
|I think it is a Starship tubing thing.||Spunout|
Nov 20, 2002 7:56 AM
|I wouldn't buy a frame with a weight limit, caveat, or limited warranty (2 years).|| |