|Is the '03 Vortex similar to the '01 Palmares?||Fez|
Nov 6, 2002 8:59 AM
|Just wondering what Litespeed has been doing for the past few years. The 2 top bikes were the Palmares and Vortex. I guess the Palmares was slightly heavier of the 2, but it got the boot when they introduced the compact Ghisallo.
Some pro teams used to ride the Palmares, but since Litespeed canned it, we saw pros ride the Vortex. Apparently the Vortex wasn't stiff enough, so they add an ovalized downtube this year. So doesn't this new Vortex look a lot like the '01 Palmares?
They should have given the Ghisallo the boot, but I guess they just wanted to say they can make a sub 2 lb frame.
Nov 6, 2002 9:30 AM
|Litespeed makes some great products but their marketing department is a little inconsistant. They keep changing the product and not always for the better.
The changes to the Vortex are good ones in my opinion but I wish they would bring back the Liege...or just add a nice stiff downtube to the Tuscany. I would like to see a reasonably priced Ti frame that has lots of stiffness without the crit geometery of the Ultimate. Just my $.02
Nov 6, 2002 9:35 AM
|didn't that evolve into the Palmares for 2000 and 01? Besides the small changes, I think the main difference between them is the Liege was 3/2.5 and 6/4 and the Palmares was nearly all 6/4|
Nov 6, 2002 10:20 AM
|I do believe the Liege evolved into the Palmares and in the process the frame became more expensive. There is really no logical reason to go all 6/4 except to drive up the price more, and save that last few grams for the weight weenies. I say bring back a reasonably priced 3/2.5 Liege type frame for people that want stiffness without the high price.
|Where are you people getting the idea that the Vortex||Lazywriter|
Nov 6, 2002 3:52 PM
|is flexy? I posted this heading under the last Vortex discussion. I am not saying it is the stiffest bike on the road and thankfully it is not. However, I am 180-210lbs depending upon the time of the year and the Vortex is stiffer than my Fondriest with a bladed downtube which is steel (the lower weight end I look like I have a disease so in general I am a large guy).
My 2002 Vortex is ovalized in the BB but the downtube is not oversized which I aesthetically prefer. The new 2003 version "meets" tubes at the headtube which looks sloppy in my opinion. Only some of the Lotto riders prefered this design but LS followed suit and used it as a prototype.
I test rode one at my LBS out of curiosity and didn't find it to ride different. But I guess someone else would percieve a bigger difference. I am very sensitive to ti ride quality because of my time spent over the years on my LS Classic. The Vortex is considerably stiffer than my Classic although I found the Classic to be responsive. The Vortex and 6-4 in general has a less springy feel to it. The Tuscany included which IS NOT stiffer than the Vortex.
You guys have theories that the 6-4 is not stiffer than 3-25, but it rides and feels different. Less forgiving and springy for sure. Is the Vortex like oversized aluminum? No but is it a stiff bike, absolutely with or without the oversized downtube. The new Vortex is lighter than the Palmares and the Liege so I doubt it will be stiffer. The benefit of the 6-4 is to get a stiff or stiffer frame at less weight even if you are only looking at 1/3 or 1/2 pound.
I test rode the Seven Axiom several times and the Ghisallo. The Seven rode very much like my Classic but was less stiff than the Vortex. I know they can make the Seven stiff as I want it but at a weight penalty. Hence the beauty of 6-4. As far as the shaping of tubes, I see merit in how it can change thte stiffness of a tube while keeping wall thickness smaller. The Ghisallo was very flexy but rideable if you are a smooth spinner less than 170lbs.
If you are in the market for a Vortex, track down a 2002 with the understated black decals. It is stiff enough for most professionals and every non pro on this board.
|The difference you feel is geometery related||Nessism|
Nov 6, 2002 4:44 PM
|The Vortex's steep head angle and shorter chainstays decrease the compliance of the frame. The Vortex also has a relatively large diameter top tube which will further add to the firm ride.
While the short chainstays do increase the bottom bracket stiffness somewhat, a more important frame specification that determines BB stiffness is the downtube size, which is fairly small on the Vortex.
|The difference you feel is geometery related||Lazywriter|
Nov 6, 2002 5:09 PM
|Which frame are you referring to. I find the Vortex to be stiffer than the Classic, the Axiom, Tuscany and my Fondriest. My Vortex weighs 3 lbs for the frame and is stiffer than my 3.5lb Classic and the even heavier Forndriest.
The ride difference is noticed immediately. Much stiffer than all those frames, but to be honest, I like the ride of the Classic, Axiom and Tuscany better in many ways. The Vortex is a more twitchy less comfortable ride.