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Toe overlap, Seven,and Ms. Tolleson(13 posts)

Toe overlap, Seven,and Ms. TollesonSilas_Greenback
Oct 27, 2002 6:03 AM
I had hoped to reach Ms. Tolleson before posting this message so that I could confirm the story that Seven told me when I called on an unrelated matter. Rather unwisely, as I told Rob Vandermark, Seven takes specs from certain bike shops presumed to know what they are doing and builds the frame. Based on my experience, your LBS sends off more measurements than you could believe to Seven and back come specs. Your LBS then sets you up on a bike that comes as close to the specs as the LBS can arrange. Then and only then do you, the buyer and the LBs, sign off on the specs and the frame is built. For me, that worked great. It seems that one or more of these steps got skipped in the Tolleson case. I wrote to Seven to say that they were dumb to risk their reputation in that way and should no longer follow this policy. I will let you know Seven's response. I and my law firm often find that others want to trade on my firm's 150+ years of reputation and integrity, and you have to be extremely careful. A reputation built up over centuries can disappear in a minute. Seven has built thousands of bikes, and this one has dented their reputation. I hope that they skip the shortcut method of building and put everyone through the same hoops. $3,000 is too much to spend for a blunder. I would be curious to have Ms. Tolleson describe the process she went through that led to her disaster. Luckily, she was not seriously hurt.
re: Toe overlap, Seven,and Ms. Tollesonjtolleson
Oct 27, 2002 10:14 AM
aaaaah. Undesired notoriety!

The process works about like this -- your LBS (in this case, Excel Sports ... a great outfit) takes many, many measurements (as a good fitting should), discusses riding styles and preferences, and then shoots the whole deal off to Seven. The folks at Seven then spend time on the phone with the customer (me) discussing fit issues and proposed geometry. There was lots of back and forth between Seven and Excel, I think, which is one of the reasons that the design issue provoked some finger-pointed between the company and the LBS. I didn't give a whole lot of input on it because they had my specs and new what I wanted... that was good enough for me.

So, I can't give a very enlightening description on the original design.

Current plan (I think) will probably include 1 cm more top tube, .5 degree more HTA, .5 degree less STA, a shorter crank set, and a 50 fork. We'll crunch some numbers and see where that leaves us. I spent a couple of hours with the folks at Excel on Friday, and my frame is on its way back to the mother ship.
re: Toe overlap, Seven,and Ms. TollesonSilas_Greenback
Oct 27, 2002 11:16 AM
I am not trying to fix blame, just trying to figure out how this goofy design ended up as your frame. Did Excel set you up on a similar bike to test the specs and have you ride it? Were you part of the give and take between Excel and Seven? I suppose the main thing is that there is a happy ending. Not notoriety; you are the poster child for when good companies screw up somehow. Not quite what you had expected, but then neither was the frame.
re: Toe overlap, Seven,and Ms. TollesonSilas_Greenback
Oct 27, 2002 4:07 PM
Before you sign off on the new specs, get Excel to take some bike off the floor and set it up as closely as they can to your new frame and ride for 10-20 miles. When the specs came back from Seven, I thought they were wackos. Riding a Specialized virtual clone convinced me. Are you sure that the angles are going to change that much? And in particular, are you sure that your head tube angle is going to become five whole degrees steeper? For that matter, a five degree change in seat tube angle is a ton. It would be comparable to going from a time trial bike to a Greg Lemond style geometry. The proof will be in the pudding, but make sure that you get to try the pudding first.
re-read her last postRickC5
Oct 28, 2002 6:03 AM
Those are 1/2 (.5) degree changes, NOT five (5).
re-read her last postSilas_Greenback
Oct 28, 2002 6:06 AM
Yup. I missed the fine print, something a lawyer is not supposed to do.
Hope it works out for you.pmf1
Oct 28, 2002 5:03 AM
There is a female poster (fuzzball) on the velonews site who swears by her Seven. Claims to be a veteran racer who has tried many different frames. Says the Seven made the difference between winning and losing last year. I find that hard to believe, but that's what she says.

Are they still insisting on charging $1200 for modifications? It seems unlikely that a place like Excel would goof up measurements, but I suppose anything is possible. I think I would have sold it on ebay and bought something else.

Keep us updated on what goes on.
0.5 degree more HTA will actually INCREASE overlap!!!elviento
Oct 28, 2002 8:00 AM
A typical frame with a 55cm toptube (probably a size 55-56) will leave no toe overlap, and if the angles remain the same on your frame, 7cm of overlap means a 48cm effective toptube. That's horrendously short! And since small frames typically have steeper seattubes and shallower headtubes, then 7cm of overlap means probably a 47cm toptube. I am not aware of ANY road bike model that has a 48cm or less toptube. The least I have seen is around 51cm.

Is it because you have very short torso for you height, or do you prefer a position with hands stretched out very little? Or was the fitting totally screwed up? I don't get it.

Gee, 3 grand is too much to pay for a frame with bad geometries.
Whoops. My bad. Meant less (nm)jtolleson
Oct 28, 2002 4:09 PM
re: Toe overlap, Seven,and Ms. Tollesongtx
Oct 27, 2002 10:31 AM
Both Seven and Excel screwed up. Seven built a bad frame and Excel let it out of the shop.
missed the original postj-son
Oct 27, 2002 2:27 PM
What happened with jtolleson's 7? Could you re-post the story or post a link to the thread. Just curious about what happened.
10-22j-son
Oct 27, 2002 2:42 PM
I found the thread. What a terrible situation. hopefully 7 will do the right thing.
Read the original thread.SnowBlind
Oct 27, 2002 7:07 PM
Just curious, do the clips overlap even with out your foot in the clip?
Seems to me that would be a defective design, as pedaling through any kind of turn would be dangerous.
As Nader once said "Unsafe at any speed".

When I ordered my custom from the builder, I specifically said "No toe overlap" and I got it, even in a compact frame. Considering Seven's reputation, it is ridiculous that anything more than "it's wrong" is necessary to fix the problem. Somebody let the bean counters get involved.