|It's only a matter of time...||Akirasho|
Oct 26, 2002 6:09 PM
|Now that Cannondale is marketing it's disc brake equipped CX bike (with CX geometry)... it won't be long before marketing pressures push the technology onto a road geometry frame... indeed, the same pressures will try to take weight out of the system to make it directly competitive with today's dual pivots...
How long do you think it will take for the BIG THREE to offer said in the US market?
Remain In Light.
Be the bike.
|how light can discs get? nm||collinsc|
Oct 26, 2002 6:20 PM
|I don't think it will because there is no need||spookyload|
Oct 26, 2002 6:28 PM
|Disk brakes are very functional in MTBing because the conditions you participate in demand them. Wet, dirty, and extreme braking are all benefitted from disk brakes. Road bikes don't rely on braking as much to go fast. In mountain biking, good braking makes you faster by staying in control. You can race criteriums, road races, and time trials without ever hardly touching the brakes. My mountain bike goes through a set of v-brake pads every 8 months...I still have the factory pads on my dura ace brakes after two years. Just my 2 cents though.|
|Since when does "need" govern the marketplace?||KEN2|
Oct 27, 2002 5:19 AM
|There are lots of innovations (some might say gimmicks) on road bikes for which there was no real "need." Marketing, not need, drives many of these changes. 7 to 8 to 9 to 10 cogs and threadless headsets come to mind easily.|
|Agreed... if you make it. People will buy.||PODIUMBOUNDdotCA|
Oct 27, 2002 7:01 AM
|I guarantee you if there was an effective design to put disc brakes onto a road bike whether as a complete bike or an aftermarket product people would buy it.
|Doubt you'll see it on the road...||biknben|
Oct 26, 2002 6:42 PM
|I come from a MTB background and doubt you'll see them on a true road bike any time soon. CX has a reputation for racing in horrible conditions. Those canti brakes can't handle the slop. I'm surprised they don't use V-Brakes in CX. I remember the days of Canti brake on my MTB and they sucked. If I rode CX I'd use adapters with V-brake or I'd be looking to get disks.
The driving factors for disks is extreme braking and sloppy conditions. None of which you find on the road. You can very easily lock up road wheels with dual pivot calipers. With disks, you'd be able to do the same with only one finger. No need for that.
|The time will come||chazman|
Oct 26, 2002 7:43 PM
|Disc brakes can be (and are) lighter than canti. It's the wheel that is heavier right now. However, that will change. A disc specific wheel can machine away more of the rim. The only bummer for wheel builders is that the braking stresses require the spoke system to handle a twisting force (since wheel wants to twist about the hub) instead of a straight line push/pull force while rim braking braking (hub wants to push towards the front of the wheel). Disc brakes on road bikes can be very light (can use a composite disc with a ceramic braking surface) and once setup, you will never have to adjust them. Not to mention the fact that you will not have to worry about picking up a pebble in your canti's and scouring your $400 rim.
Rim brakes might be good if you live in Kansas. If you ride anywhere there are real mountains (10+ mile steep descents) you are probably not happy with the power of rim brakes and the damage they do to your wheels.
I am looking forward to it! Sign me up.
|Sorry we aren't all lucky enough to live in "real" mountains||spookyload|
Oct 26, 2002 9:38 PM
|re: It's only a matter of time...||tremblay|
Oct 26, 2002 7:56 PM
|Yeah, I don't think you'll be seeing Shimano or Campy working on road specific disc brakes any time soon. On a 'cross bike, it makes perfect sense, but on a racing bike, ummm, it looks ridiculous, and it's most likely overkill. If I can lock up my dual pivot campy brakes no problem at any speed in most conditions, why would I need the virtues of a disc brake?|
|It makes a lot of sense||rengaracchi|
Oct 26, 2002 11:35 PM
|if you consider tandem bikes. Tandem bikes are heavier and you have two people on a frame. Extra braking power is an important safty concern. In fact, they use drum brake on rear for that now. But, of course, just it is in the case of cars, disk brakes are superior than dram brakes. I would love to have a pair of disk brakes on my tandem. On road bikes? I want ABS.|
|it's all about marketing....||Smoothie|
Oct 27, 2002 5:35 AM
|I read all the replies - all very good technical points that have merit. But let's stop and consider something - marketing is the true driving force in today's consumer market.
If cannondale (or any of the big US three) wants to keep their image of "pushing the envelope" they will put discs on road bikes at some point in time. It will have nothing to do with the technical merits of discs being an overkill, it will be about the marketing image and what sells bikes. Let's remember that most of the cycling world is made up of average consumers. They *might* read a cycling magazine once in a while, but they mostly rely heavily on LBS to steer them towards the right bikes.
Let's try this example: (assume the US big three have been marketing disc brakes and have several models out)
Consumer "A" walks into a LBS and is put in front of a normal road bike and a disc brake road bike. Which one is he going to buy? The shop employee will steer him towards disc, the magazines will be giving rave reviews and shouting "excellent modulation and control" from the roof tops, maybe a couple people in his local group ride have discs and love them - "I never stopped so fast, you should see these puppies in the rain, etc.." Point is the marketing force will have done its job way before our Consumer "A" walks into that LBS to buy a new bike. Even if that fails good o'l consumer habits die hard - Consumer "A" will be thinking "if I buy disc now my bike will last longer since it will already have the latest technology" or "Well sure the normal bike is a better deal, but I'll be the first on my block with Disc brakes!" or even "Well (insert pro name here) rides it, it must be good!"
If you doubt the power of marketing, try and think back to the last time you were building up your frame. When it came time to pick Record 10 or Chorus 10 (or DA and Ultegra if you do shimano) what motivated your final decision...be honest with yourself now.
Just my .02 cents..
|it's all about marketing....||Chainstay|
Oct 27, 2002 11:33 AM
|I agree that it's Marketing, but don't ignore production costs as a big factor. The reason for a lot of the frame innovations is that they allow easier assembly or fewer tube sizes, or fewer production setups. The disc brakes will be heavily marketed if there is a cost advantage. My guess is that that will depend on wheel design and that opens up an opportunity for an integrated system. For example, if you want disc brakes and you have Shimano levers then you need to buy Shimano discs and Shimano wheels.|
|Avid already makes road discs||girchygirchy|
Oct 27, 2002 6:18 AM
|Go to their website and check them out.|
|How do you mount them on a ride frame and fork?||roadiebrodie|
Oct 27, 2002 7:16 AM
|I would do it on my training bike which I ride in the rain alot. But how could I mount them?|
|The time has already come||MRS|
Oct 27, 2002 9:21 AM
|The German cycling magazine "Tour" reviewed a road bike with disc brakes by Czech maker Morati about a year ago, the Ti Pro Race SC 1.3. I can't find it on the Morati website, so they are probably not making them anymore.
I also think disc breaks are not allowed in CX races (another UCI rule about equipment that doesn't make sense to me...)
|You guys are too cynical... CX needs very strong braking||elviento|
Oct 27, 2002 11:05 AM
|performance, so disc isn't really outrageous on a CX bike. But disk simply doesn't make sense on a road bike. Contrary to some people's beliefs, an extra cog or a threadless setup actually improves road cycling.
Threadless setup is lighter, stiffer, little risk of stuck stem, and can easily offer 3-4cm of adjustment with spacers and flipping the stem. The only downside, is that some old folks that can't accept change think it's ugly.
None of the big 3 will come out with a disk equipped pure road bike in the next 2 years. Anybody willing to bet $1000 with me?
|How about this?||aeon|
Oct 27, 2002 5:35 PM
|How about disks for pro climbing bikes? You wouldn't need a very large disk, maybe 100-120 mm, and it would allow you to build much lighter carbon rims, and reduce the ROTATING weight of the bike. Even if you add some to the total weight, you'd lose the most important part and still easily be able to meet the 15lb UCI requirement.
What about in super-aero conditions? A disk allows you to spread the fork legs apart near the tire where the spoke creates an eggbeater effect
|Already here..||Slacker Joe|
Oct 28, 2002 5:18 AM
|In the mtb world, the weight of discs have come down enough that even the weight conscious are taking notice. 2003 will be remembered as the break out year for widesperead acceptance of discs, I think, due to lightweight offereings from Formula and Magura, but especially Shimanos push for their new XTR discs, it appears V's may go the way of cantis even more quickly than anticipated. And with the new XTR, Shimano has again demonstrated that they're interested in pushing technology developed for one discipline (in this case, STI) to another. Once the big S throws their weight behind it, it's only a matter of time. And for the Campy devotees, a rep from the US branch has been quoted as predicting that discs would find their way on road bikes as well.
And one of the big three, Giant, already has a disc'd bike, marketed as a touring bike: The Avid brakes are great, easier than V's to set up and maintain, but notoriously heavy.
|re: ... look for prototypes...||Akirasho|
Oct 28, 2002 1:20 PM
|... to be tested in the Pro peloton...
I suspect that there will be testing, both in the US and abroad... next season (not every rider... not every race).
Shimano worked closely with Grimeca to develop it's MTB discs... I suspect that a lot of R&D yielded many other possibilities (including ultra lightweight rotors built out of the ubiquitous Unobtainium and CF calipers (with in molded bladder reservoirs))... and Wound Up has shown that you can slap cantis on a CF fork... why not a disc?
... did we need 10, 9, 8, 7...
... did we need threadless...
... did we need a derailleur at all...
While the basics of the double diamond go back over a century... we ain't riding our daddy's OCLV (at least not most of us).
Remain In Light.
Be the bike.