|Sorrow for the lost. Condolence for the survivors.||rwbadley|
Sep 11, 2002 4:43 AM
|please keep it to the non-cycling....well, I responded||ishmael|
Sep 11, 2002 5:50 AM
|to be honest I'm sick to death of hearing about it. We could talk about the more than equivalent number who died from US misfires in Afghanistan or the thousands dying each day all over the world from lack of water and food. Just as much a tragedy if not more so because it isnt a group of extremests responsible but a large part of the world. And who is responsible or able to solve these problem? And who never brings it up?
There were about 3 thousand killed last year in the trade center, a drop in the bucket compared to other attrocities around the world, but they are all on the backburner if even under concideration. Me me me me, us us us, the US is the best at caring about itself. Just a thought-maybe fundamentally behind the attack and hatred is the fact that we have everything and they have nothing and we feel its justified. I know its not as simple as lending a hand or sending a buck in some cases(in some cases it is), its more complicated, and in that complication we either give up or worse decide it's their own fault. Our government will quickly take jump on the opportunity to be world leader against terrorism( and maybe gettting a bit of control in the mid-east to bit) but ask us to be the big guy who helps out on other issues and you wont get nearly the response. And we all jump on the bandwagon. And its all an excuse for Bush to go to war with Iraq.
And any flamers, dont try the softie route telling me about how you know someone who died or the like, this isnt personal. I dont want to have to say I'm sorry for not giving trade center deaths first priority.
|100% inappropriate. nm||JS Haiku Shop|
Sep 11, 2002 6:06 AM
|Ishmael go jump in a lake... You're an insensitive SOB!!!||spyderman|
Sep 11, 2002 9:14 PM
|Today is a day of remembering the INNOCENT lives ripped from their families.
Do you realize how many children lost a parent in the most senseless attack on civilians in this country's?
Perhaps if someone senselessly murdered your Father/Mother, Son/Daughter, or Brother/Sister you might begin to even grasp what 3000+ families are going through right now.
You're a PRICK!
Do me a favor
|Ishmael go jump in a lake... You're an insensitive SOB!!!||ishmael|
Sep 12, 2002 5:53 AM
|youre right, its a day of rememberance and I'm not being as respectfull as I should. If I knew I was speaking to someone who was hurt by the event I wouldnt bring it up at all because when it comes to a personal level its not my business. But for all you know maybe some of the victims agree with me, maybe some feel that there has been to much media attention given to them. Just because news anchor joe smoe says its a day the families are grieving doesnt mean its so, maybe they want us to move on so they can. I have no idea what the victims truely feel and neither does 99.999 percent of the nation. Must we try to be on a personal level with an event that for most of us is wholey impersonal. We manage to be very impersonal with every other tragedy.|
|We are not perfect. The world is not a perfect place.||spyderman|
Sep 14, 2002 12:31 AM
|We affect change in many countries where our interests are best served. This can be easily criticized. We can not afford to be the world police, yet we still do more than any other nation on this planet. We stand by our friends.
The attack on the WTC, Pentagon, and Shanksville was the first real American tragedy that captured the worlds attention. Pre 9-1-1, when earthquakes, floods, and other American tragedies have occured when have other countries come to our aid??? NEVER.
Just because someone wasn't directly affected by the tragedy doesn't mean they can't feel the great enormity of the loss that affected over 3000+ innocent families that day. Should we all mourn the same as the families, no. Yet there is still a tremendous sense of loss that has affected this nation and the world as well. It will take many years/generations before this country will heal form the events that took place on 09.11.01.
I know you said you've moved on... and that's great for you. Considering how insensitive your comments were, I'd hope you'd keep moving on until you're in another country. Perhaps a third world country that doesn't have the opportunity that this one affords you.
No matter how inappropriate your comments were, you're still entitled to your opinion. That's what makes this country so great!
All-in-all, this country does try to do the best and I am damn proud to be an American!
|agree w/you, but post on the non-cycling discussions. nm||weiwentg|
Sep 11, 2002 6:25 AM
|They don't hate us because we have everything...||Quack|
Sep 11, 2002 6:43 AM
|they hate us because every time their enemies launch missiles into their back yard, the last thing they see before it hits is Made In USA in big letters on the missile. We arm and financially support the people that are fighting with them. End of story. Every one of them would give their left nut to live in America if they could, they love our freedom, our lifestyles, our clothing, but hate us because we back their enemies.|
|you know, I agree with ish here....||collinsc|
Sep 11, 2002 6:43 AM
|Nearly everyone will pause today and think of the WTC one year ago, but as far as worldly tragedies and the destruction of "innocent" (now theres an argument i wont touch) life, the WTC attacks do pale in comparison to the renegade destruction of poverty, famine, disease, not to mention hundreds of militant factions ravaging neighboring homelands (of impoverished, famished and diseased) daily.
We will all remember 9/11/01 today with sadness, but I think I will spend more time thinking about why I can justify a $4000 bicycle when half the world cant afford a bowl of rice and sleeps in the dirt.
|Good perspective (nm)||rtyszko|
Sep 11, 2002 8:12 AM
|Completely, absolutely insensitive||PaulCL|
Sep 11, 2002 6:47 AM
|You have a right to your opinions, I even agree, to some extent,with part of your post. But to post that comment on this day, as a reply to a thread of condolence to those who lost their lives is insensitive and callous.|
|Ismael, maybe you should...||Captain Morgan|
Sep 11, 2002 6:58 AM
|be spending a little less time riding a bike and reading posts on internet boards and donate some of your time to help feed and water the needy of this world. Heck, your bike probably costs more than most people in the middle east make in a year. You could easily sell your bike and donate the funds to charitable causes. Hypocrite.|
Sep 11, 2002 5:46 PM
|the hypocracy I see is a nation mourning and feeling we need to be sensitive for our own while at the same time ignoreing the rest of the world.|
Sep 11, 2002 6:53 PM
|Just answer the dang question: If you are so worried about the rest of the world, what are you doing about it?|
Sep 12, 2002 6:13 AM
|Im not doing much, if anything, other than giving my respect to the "others" by reminding people of all the other problems going on. For .001 percent of this country this may be a day of rememberance of loved ones, and if I knew one of them I would maybe try to concole them if I thought it was appropriate. But I dont know any of them, and I dont know if they want any more condolences form strangers, and there are other things going on NOW, not last year.|
|Not the softie route, but...||NJRoad|
Sep 11, 2002 7:36 AM
|many of those countries who's populations are suffering are doing so because of the countries leadership has sapped what resources the country has and then blames Western culture for their problems.|
|please keep it to the non-cycling....well, I responded||Pygme|
Sep 11, 2002 8:20 AM
|>to be honest I'm sick to death of hearing about it.
Actually, no you are not. You are alive. But others would have liked to change that..
>We could talk about the more than equivalent number who died from US misfires in Afghanistan
"thousands?"--Doubtfull. But you are right, they are deaths from "misfires." Surely, you are not so ignorant that you cant see the differnce between deliberately killing innocent men/women/and children and accidentally killing people even though every measure was taken to avoid it.
>or the thousands dying each day all over the world from lack of water and food.
Put your money where you mouth is. When was the last time to did something about this?
>Just as much a tragedy if not more so because it isnt a >group of extremests responsible but a large part of the >world. And who is responsible or able to solve these >problem? And who never brings it up?
I give up. What did that mean?
>There were about 3 thousand killed last year in the trade >center, a drop in the bucket compared to other >attrocities around the world, but they are all on the >backburner if even under concideration. Me me me me, us >us us, the US is the best at caring about itself.
Drop in the bucket, eh? That sure is insulting to those who had that drop in the bucket. Children without parents. Parents losing children. Firefighters and police officers saving others at there peril. Military members in the pentagon. A class of schoolchildren on flight 93. If you can take back anything you said, you could at least take this back.
>Just a thought-maybe fundamentally behind the attack and >hatred is the fact that we have everything and they have >nothing and we feel its justified.
Why is this? Because they have "leaders" who keep their people repressed and ignorant so that they can retain power. As a result, they can not advance technogically, emotionally, financially, intelligentlly.
>I know its not as simple as lending a hand or sending a >buck in some cases(in some cases it is), its more >complicated, and in that complication we either give up >or worse decide it's their own fault. Our government will >quickly take jump on the opportunity to be world leader >against terrorism( and maybe gettting a bit of control in >the mid-east to bit) but ask us to be the big guy who >helps out on other issues and you wont get nearly the >response. And we all jump on the bandwagon. And its all >an excuse for Bush to go to war with Iraq.
It is thoughts like this that I can not understand. When Iraq invaded another country again, you and yours will be yelling we cant invade! They have nuclear weapons.
>And any flamers, dont try the softie route telling me >about how you know someone who died or the like, this >isnt personal. I dont want to have to say I'm sorry for >not giving trade center deaths first priority.
I am not a flamer, but I completely disagree with everything you say. I also wonder if you have ever done anything to make this world a better place to live. Or to quote you, get away from the "ME ME ME" attitude.
|as i read yesterday||ishmael|
Sep 11, 2002 9:17 AM
|There were over three thousand killed by US missfire according to Philadelphia city paper published last week. And saying we were"taking every measure to avoid civilian casualties" is rhetoric that doesnt work with me or the real world. Those casualties exist regardless of how you sweep them.
I would discuss more but I'm late.
Look, I'm only trying to point out how there are other things going on in the world which are just as awfull if not worse but they dont affect us so we dont bother. I'm not meaning to belittle any attrocity but when looking at things like this you need to keep some distance and perspective. I could say we need to help the homeless dogs or what about orphaned kids and I could go on all day but when we are being selective(which the US and its citizens are) choices have to be made and comparitively I think we are giving to much attention to 9 11.
|as i read yesterday||Pygme|
Sep 11, 2002 10:28 AM
|My only regret about the whole thing: I regret that it was not YOU who had to make the choice stay and get burned to death or leap 1,000 feet to your death. Hopefully, for your sake, an angel would have delivered you before you had to make that choice.
What I said was not "rhetoric." It is a fact. YOU have presented nothing BUT rhetoric.
You STILL have not pointed out how YOU are making the world a better place for all the people you are so "concerned" about.
|as i read yesterday||ishmael|
Sep 11, 2002 5:36 PM
|I havent met an angel yet, the only ones doing saving on this planet are humans, but anyway. The one and only thing I'm doing to make the world a better place for these people im so "concerned" about is pointing them out. I'm hopeing we can start directing some of our sympathy and resources to them instead of something that happend a year ago. The "them" being people who are still alive but not for long. Victims of other atrocities. You must agree that there are others happending while we speak. I wont go so far as to say we are responsible directly or even indirectly(although I believe it and it isnt a streach). But wouldnt you agree that we could solve alot of the problems. What problems? Any, I dont care. The point being that there is a lot going on in the world and America, the great power, is needed but instead is sitting on its ass. It's always sitting on its ass looking out for number one but its just moments like now when its so blatent and disgustingly popular. I'm not going to belittle the atrocities that will happend tonight, tomorrow, and the whole of last year by hypeing up one event that happend a year ago. A lot has happend around the world since then, atrocities I'm more concerned about, things our country could fix lickity split if the energy were put to it. If you'd like I could compile a list. I dont think the problems on my list would be to hard to handle, we are quite a powerful and rich country. But we are a democracy and it seems the people in charge arent interested. Wouldnt it be nice if our tax dollars went to world hunger. Maybe we could set a precedent. OO but the money doesnt go to those who need it, it gets taken by the local war lords. Oo well I guess it's impossible.|
|Ishmael, they just want to confuse the issue. ignore it. nm||weiwentg|
Sep 12, 2002 4:57 AM
|You're misinformed ishmael and a tad askew.||Sintesi|
Sep 12, 2002 5:24 AM
|America has saved countless millions from starvation and disease through doantions of food and medicine. Our institutions educate the world. Can you put a price on the goodness of a quality education in an American University or college? How does that help the people of the world? Be honest. Our country has taught millions of people how to feed themselves and has invested trillions in the economies of underprivileged nations. USA has a very strong record of benefitting the world as in THE strongest record. Weigh the good and the bad and compare it to other nations of the world past and present. If you're being honest and thorough you'll see there's less hipocracy than you like to believe. Our money is where our mouths are. If you don't like something get involved like so many of your ancestors and fellow citizens have and continue to do. We're the good guys, not the perfect guys, but definitely the good guys. It's okay to say it too.|
|yes we are the good guys sometimes||ishmael|
Sep 12, 2002 6:36 AM
|I still feel we distance ourselves too much from the rest of the world and dont help as much as we should and this 9.11 rememberance is a reminder of this. I know we do help, but I dont think its enough, not nearly enough compared to how lavishly we live and what we are capable of. I'm a hypocrite because I do it too, but I dont want to make excuses or give reasons for not doing more. I dont want to weigh the good and bad of past and present and see us as coming up on top, although that is an encouraging example of human progress, I want it done and over with. It's a tired argument. Where's Jesus when you need him? He's good at this speach.|
Sep 12, 2002 6:53 AM
|A family grieves hardest for their own. It's natural. Germany (as most other countries) isn't going apeshit over 9/11 although I'm sure a lot of them feel bad. I think we need to get involved more as well but we've done plenty of good. We don't have too much to be ashamed of in that department.|
|hope I didnt piss too many off on here, especially anyone in mourning.||ishmael|
Sep 12, 2002 7:33 AM
|I think I've come off pretty badly on this thread, it's easy to be obnoxious on the internet. If I have a point I'm trying to make I can get a bit carried away. Anyway, about "that department", it seems I'll be doing 25 hours of community service for the crime of drinking a beer in the park after hours so I'm getting involved whether I want to or not. I dont think I'll find anyone starving to death around me but I am allowed to find the charity/service I choose. They say once you start you cant quit, it's the feel good drug.|
Sep 12, 2002 6:20 AM
|The poor African from Malawi that donates $5 to the victims but the Good ol USA drops bombs worth $billions.....|
|You make one good point...it's a lot more complicated||hrs|
Sep 11, 2002 11:53 AM
|than what can be dealt with in a short internet discussion.
You have a right to your point of view, and a right to express that point of view freely. I will keep this short and address only a couple of issues. You state that the US is best at caring for itself, well that is the job of the US government...to look after the country's interests. If you don't feel what it does is sufficient, then step up to the plate:join the Peace Corps (or other aid organization) and give part of your life to helping others (if you already have, I commend you), increase personal donations to causes/organizations which support things you feel need attention, lobby your Senators and Congressmen for what you feel is important. The events of Sept. 11, 2001 were tragic and I feel sorrow for those who lost loved ones. The larger impact is that the country is full of people for whom this was a horrible shocking slap in the face (when sadly most of the world has been living with terrorism for a long time). Fighting terrorism is as noble a cause as any, but it's not a simple fight, and has many fronts: political, military, and economic (to name a few).
|re: Sorrow for the lost. Condolence for the survivors.||fbg111|
Sep 11, 2002 8:07 AM
|Well America is no angel, but neither are we responsible for all the ills of the world, and it bugs me to hear so many one-sided, "it's all America's fault" opinions. Americans are some of the most generous, compassionate, and idealistic people in the world, and certainly didn't deserve 9/11. While I don't trust our government and media any further than I can throw them, I trust the rationalizations of those who would destroy our society even less. Whatever America's faults and transgressions, it is a society where, theoretically at least, justice is achieved peacefully through the rule of law and the democratic process. Many of our detractors are of societies still based on the rule of might, not right, and their anti-American political machinations are disingenious and transparent, at best.|
|True too. (nm)||rtyszko|
Sep 11, 2002 8:14 AM
|and a final word on this from Mr Mandela||african|
Sep 11, 2002 8:45 AM
|US threatens world peace, says Mandela
One of the world's most respected statesmen, Nelson Mandela, has condemned United States intervention in the Middle East as "a threat to world peace".
In an interview with the US magazine, Newsweek published on Wednesday, the former South African president repeated his call for President George Bush not to launch attacks on Iraq.
Mandela on the US
Bush motivated by arms sales and oil
Dick Cheney a 'dinosaur'
US responsible for Iran's Islamic revolution
US action led to Taleban
He said that Mr Bush was trying to please the American arms and oil industries.
And Mr Mandela, 84, called some of Mr Bush's senior advisors, including Vice President Dick Cheney "dinosaurs".
He said that the United States' backing for a coup by the Shah of Iran in 1953 had led to that country's Islamic revolution in 1979.
On Afghanistan, Mr Mandela said that US support for the mujahideen (including Osama Bin Laden) against the Soviet Union and its refusal to work with the United Nations after the Soviet withdrawal led to the Taleban taking power.
"If you look at those matters, you will come to the conclusion that the attitude of the United States of America is a threat to world peace," he said.
Mr Mandela said that the US was clearly afraid of losing a vote in the United Nations Security Council.
Israel has weapons of mass destruction. Nobody mentions that
"It is clearly a decision that is motivated by George W Bush's desire to please the arms and oil industries in the United States of America," he said.
He said that no evidence had been presented to support the claim that Iraq possesses weapons of mass destruction, while former UN weapons inspector in Baghdad Scott Ritter has said there is no such evidence.
"But what we know is that Israel has weapons of mass destruction. Nobody mentions that," he said.
The former South African leader made it clear that the only member of the Bush team he respects is Colin Powell.
He called Mr Cheney a "dinosaur" and an "arch-conservative" who does not want Mr Bush "to belong to the modern age."
Mr Mandela recalled that Mr Cheney had been opposed to his release from prison.
|Mr Mandela transcends S.A. and apartheid. A true hero! (nm)||Spunout|
Sep 11, 2002 9:03 AM
|Mr Mandela transcends S.A. and apartheid. A true hero! (nm)||african|
Sep 11, 2002 9:24 AM
|I have not met him but he walked right past me one day. I could have reached out and touched him. Anyway, he is a nice ol geezer and he has some interesting points of view.|
|Another extremely wise man, Bishop Tutu...||spyderman|
Sep 11, 2002 9:25 PM
|Mr Mandela...A true criminal.||Matno|
Sep 11, 2002 4:14 PM
|Nelson Mandela was not imprisoned because he believed blacks and whites should be equal. He was imprisoned because he was the head of the African National Congress, a hard-line communist organization that, with Soviet backing, organized and funded countless acts of terrorism throughout South Africa. The ANC made the "tire necklace" famous by putting them on hundreds if not thousands of innocent people, both black and white, purely for the purpose of destabilizing the gov't. (If you're not familiar with the "necklace," it's a car tire filled with gasoline, put around a person's neck while his or her hands were tied, then lit on fire). Some hero. He sure speaks well. Amazing that people actually believe his lies.|
|I don't think so.||weiwentg|
Sep 11, 2002 4:36 PM
|The apartheid system in South Africa incarcerated Nelson Mandela for more than 27 years, and was directly responsible for the deaths of more than 2 million people in the Southern Africa region and South Africa. The United States government supported the apartheid regime and branded Nelson Mandela a terrorist. This same leadership once trained and supported bin Laden as a freedom fighter. When South Africa attained majority rule, Mandela established the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, headed by Archbishop Desmond Tutu, to investigate crimes committed by the apartheid regime. The tragic bombing of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon brought to the forefront the challenges of how to end terrorism and wanton murders. The Mandela methodology of "Truth and Reconciliation" offers an example of healing and a way of isolating those who carry out criminal acts.
In this moment of collective mourning, let us remember all of those who lost their lives through these acts. As we continue to mourn, let the spirit of healing prevail over the spirit of revenge and massive military build-up so that the forces of peace and justice internationally can prevail over the forces of warfare. Warfare in this moment of the biotech century will open up untold consequences. The reorganization of the priorities of humanity must be at the top of our agenda in this moment.
Horace G. Campbell, professor of African American studies and political
science, Maxwell School and College of Arts and Sciences
|I don't think so.||weiwentg|
Sep 11, 2002 4:46 PM
...And what is his program? What's terrorism and who's a terrorist? Back in the 1980's when the U.S. was supporting Saddam Hussein and bin Laden, it considered Nelson Mandela to be a pro-communist terrorist. Dick Cheney, as Senator, even voted against a resolution demanding Mandela's freedom from prison. It's too easy to call people or countries "terrorist" simply to promote a political agenda. Cuba, for example, is on the State Department's list of countries that support terrorism. True, Fidel Castro has supported revolutionary struggles throughout Latin America (as have members of the Roman Catholic hierarchy). But Castro has never attacked the United States or American civilians. His opponents, living safely in Florida, have carried out acts of sabotage and assassination in Cuba. They've even shot mortar rounds at the U.N. building and in 1976 blew up a Cubana airliner killing 73 people...
this is why I no longer post on non-cycling discussions. too many people can't accept the facts. Matno, what you said about Mandela, I can (and many have, including some Americans) say about the US government regarding the embargo against Iraq, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Latin America, etc. what you say, and what your government said about Mandela, isn't even a case of the pot calling the kettle black. it's more like the pot calling the plate black.
the world, including much of the Muslim world, does have sympathy for your loss. that sympathy, thanks to your president and his advisers, and the policy they have set, has run out. I should make it clear that the average American citizen should not be held accountable for the policies of his/her government, as that government mainly represents the interests of the rich, anyway. but because of that government, the average American citizen is, in many places, seen in a bad light.
|Mr Mandela...A true criminal.||Barton|
Sep 12, 2002 3:57 AM
|Let's not forget his ex-wife Winnie the "necklace queen". She has a few murders under her belt as well.|
Sep 12, 2002 5:51 AM
|You know as a South African Who grew up in the country and left 6 years ago. I have to say some of you have great points but some are way off base.
I like to say you can comment and pass judgement on a country once you have been there and lived there. Go there one day they have the largest timed bike ride in the world.
|South Africa||Jomo Kenyatta|
Sep 12, 2002 6:15 AM
|I understand South Africa is a beautiful place. I imagine the biking would be quite stunning. I have several friends who live or have lived in South Africa (including my mother for a time). I'm curious as to which points you feel are accurate and which are way off base?|
Sep 12, 2002 6:29 AM
|Jomo. My guess is that you are from East Africa? Yes SA is a beautiful country and I feel very lucky and blessed to have grown up there (26 years). You can consider me a friend who has lived there too.
Honestly, there are so many points here I can't go back to read them all and reply (politically savy hey!) but the figure of 2 million dead due to Apartheid sounds wrong by a long shot. Also the necklace by tyre was a terrible act, I have seen the results and have seen people living and then die from it. But to my knowledge it was a black on black crime, not many white people were necklaced if any.
For those reading this, I served in the army in SA and was lucky to miss the Angola war which involved Cuban soldiers fighting South African soldiers, yes American money and politics was involved. It is an interesting war and makes for good reading.
Sep 13, 2002 3:53 AM
|I am sure that SA is a place of great beauty. They also have the worst AIDS epidemic in the world (millions infected), and a government that refuses to acknowledge and deal with it. A great shame.|
|and a final word on this from Mr Mandela||Pygme|
Sep 11, 2002 9:09 AM
|While I respect Mr Manella, and have empathy for what he endured, I in no way agree with him and his foolishness.
US threatens world peace, says Mandela
>He said that the United States' backing for a coup by the >Shah of Iran in 1953 had led to that country's Islamic >revolution in 1979.
Actually, it postponed the revolution for 26 years.
>On Afghanistan, Mr Mandela said that US support for the >mujahideen (including Osama Bin Laden) against the Soviet >Union and its refusal to work with the United Nations >after the Soviet withdrawal led to the Taleban taking >power.
This is so bugus. Why did USSR invade Afghanistan? Do you even know? It is obvious that Mandella does not. USSR invaded in order to secure a warm water port because all those nothern waterways they have created more problems than good. Afghanistan has not waterways you say? Correct, Afghanistan was a waypoint on the USSR's march throuhg Pakistan to get a waarm water port.
As far a Osama, he is the power hungry war monger looking for an enemy to justify his actions. When the USSR was gone, he turned his attention to the US. At the time, it was the correct thing to do. Kind like the parents who feed, clothe, and love their child only to find out he grew up to be Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy.
Anyone how is remotely familliar with the United Nations knows that more often than not, their goals and wanted are completely opposed to the best interest of the US.
>"If you look at those matters, you will come to the >conclusion that the attitude of the United States of >America is a threat to world peace," he said.
That is funny. Especially since divestment is what led Mandella to be freed in the first place.
>Israel has weapons of mass destruction. Nobody mentions >that
It is a save bet that Israel is not going to use their MOWD's.
>"It is clearly a decision that is motivated by George W >Bush's desire to please the arms and oil industries in >the United States of America," he said.
Please. That is such a tired old argument. One that is nothing but opinion based little in fact.
>He said that no evidence had been presented to support >the claim that Iraq possesses weapons of mass >destruction, while former UN weapons inspector in Baghdad >Scott Ritter has said there is no such evidence.
Did you know that Scott Ritter in 1998, after being expelled from Iraq, testified before the UN security council that Iraq was less than 6 months away from reconstituing thier WOMD capability? And I bet you did not know this. Prior to changing his tune last month, he spoke before an Iraqi business council who gave him $400,000. Hmmmmmm.
"But what we know is that Israel has weapons of mass destruction. Nobody mentions that," he said.
>The former South African leader made it clear that the >only member of the Bush team he respects is Colin Powell.
I guess they have to stick together, huh?
He called Mr Cheney a "dinosaur" and an "arch-conservative" who does not want Mr Bush "to belong to the modern age."
>Mr Mandela recalled that Mr Cheney had been opposed to >his release from prison.
I sure would like to hear more about this.
Sep 11, 2002 9:16 AM
|I agree and disagree with some of what you say. I see some humour in there that did bring a chuckle to my cubicle. Those are Mandela's words not mine. I try to keep my beliefs to myslef. Thanks for posting. Have a good day. Cheers.|
Sep 12, 2002 8:02 AM
|Scott Ritter, who spent 7 years as a U.N weapons inspector in Iraq, calls the current U.S. portrayal of Iraq a ``tragic joke'', saying it is not backed up by the facts.|
|Senile retiree. Irrelevant musings.||Sintesi|
Sep 11, 2002 9:35 AM
|The guy thinks this is a race issue and Colin Powell is the only one to trust presumably because he's black. Great. Take a seat Nelson.|
|Senile retiree. Irrelevant musings.||Pygme|
Sep 11, 2002 10:30 AM
|Besides, "african" and "outwest" are the same.|
|Senile retiree. Irrelevant musings.||Pygme|
Sep 11, 2002 10:31 AM
|Funny how an 84 year old man,frail from 20 years in prison, can call someone else a "dinosoar."|
|27 years and you are off the subject nm||african|
Sep 11, 2002 10:49 AM
|I don't think so.........||african|
Sep 11, 2002 10:57 AM
|I understand that you might think so. But my guess is that Mr Mandela knows a bit more than you and I despite his age.|
Sep 11, 2002 11:27 AM
|Other things happening in the world that are worse? 3k lives a "drop in the bucket."
The ignorance of your remarks is this: Wherever you live, the news, the discussion, the popular culture and discourse pertains to the community where you are. If these attacks were in France or Britain, those countries' news programmes would be obsessed with this, as we are in the USA.
This is entirely appropriate and normal. It doesn't mean we don't care about the rest of the world, or that we're shamed by your self-righteous pseudo-insights into America's self absorption.
Your remarks are neither original nor persuasive. Tired of hearing about it? Turn off the TV and donate your bike to UNICEF.
|If you find what he said insightful...||Sintesi|
Sep 11, 2002 12:09 PM
|more power to ya. Good luck.|
Sep 11, 2002 1:36 PM
|I find it all interesting, including what you have to say. It is great to get the opinions and well just interesting to hear/read them.
cheers and regards to all on this day...
|If you find that "interesting"....||Sintesi|
Sep 12, 2002 5:05 AM
|Just kidding. ; )
Thx for the post. Although we should probably do this stuff in the Non-cycling forum, yah?
Sep 11, 2002 3:03 PM
|Yours, that is.
Read up on African history and you will find a level of civilization in basic spiritual ways superior to the "West." All the European-Americans can come up with to describe this consciousness is "soul." It is caring, respect for your fellow man, community spirit, the white man has yet to learn. Colin Powell brought this quality to his Generalship and now to the Bush cabinet. It is not surprising that his views are at odds with those of Bush and Cheney, two white men who would feel at home with the imperialists of the 19th Century.
Race has nothing to do with it, only the fact that Africa was the birthplace of man, and remained isolated from warring peoples who developed high technology to win desperate and dishonorable battles with their enemies.
|Getting a little carried away aren't you Fred? nm||Sintesi|
Sep 12, 2002 5:00 AM
Sep 11, 2002 2:36 PM
|Mr. Mandela will be remembered by historians as a hero of the 20th Century, and a role model for all future political leaders. He is one of the few statesmen of principle in the world. All you quote he has said is accurate, and easy to understand to all except Americans.
This war fever our so called political leaders are lathering up over invading Iraq is the latest chapter in the arrogance that will ultimately do the US in, unless our leaders start to respect the rest of the world, and work as a member of the community of nations.
|link to Mandela interview, worth reading......||african|
Sep 11, 2002 11:22 AM
|When I first found RBR about a year ago...||rwbadley|
Sep 11, 2002 11:39 AM
|I spent some time watching the forum to try to get a feel for the flow of discussion. During this period, just after 9-11, someone posted a topic as to the whereabouts of one of the regular posters. It was surmised that he had perished in the event, as he had been known to work in the Towers.
I find the 'family' of RBR posters to be tight knit, with a great diversity I still find amazing, thrilling, and amusing. There are differences of opinion, but that is normal for any assembly of individuals. I have felt compelled to be involved for the last year or so, and I thank all of you for that.
I apologize for posting this topic on the General board.
Wait, I don't apologize. If this had not been posted, the wide array of response would not have been heard.
Is that not what keeps us coming back?
Love you all
|word. nm||JS Haiku Shop|
Sep 11, 2002 11:42 AM
Sep 11, 2002 1:34 PM
|I love you all. Posers, roadies and all.|
|wtc attacks one year later seem surreal.||stik__boy|
Sep 11, 2002 5:20 PM
|my 2 cents is this. instead of pointing out 10,000 different opinions..... do what YOU can to make america, and the world a better place to live. conserve water, it is probably our most precious natural resource. join a group to "adopt a highway" and help clean it up. ride your bike to work. maybe you, as an individual wont make a noticable difference..... but if we all do these things the world will remain a beautiful place to live. the world will still hate us, for their limitless reasons; but dont hate the world.|| |