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Need help with legal issue(22 posts)

Need help with legal issuePODIUMBOUNDdotCA
Aug 8, 2002 10:11 AM
So I have a question. I am team manager of a team (PodiumBound.CA). As such I began looking into how much it would cost to make t-shirts. This led me to deal with a guy I knew from riding a couple years ago.

So we had some correspondence going back and forth discussing roughly how much it would cost and the possibility of getting them for Nationals in the second week of July. As such he tried calling me the day before he went on vacation on my cell phone to okay the artwork/film (used in t-shirt printing) to try to get it for the due date I was considering which is a $275 charge. But I was not available so he called my house and talked to my mom explaining the situation in such a way she misunderstood that the t-shirts would be $275 for 48. So she okayed it and we are now on the hook for that charge.

Now my question is am I legally obligated to pay for a service which I did not okay irregardless if it was my mom? (I'm 19 which makes me of age in all of Canada) He wants to be paid out the time for the artist to do the artwork but since I did not okay it am I wrong for saying neither myself or my team are on the hook for it.

Thanks,
Nick
PodiumBound.ca
re: Need help with legal issuejtolleson
Aug 8, 2002 10:26 AM
Forget the legal angle. Do the right thing (yikes! That sounds like Dr. Laura).

He believed in good faith and got your approval (or reasonably thought that he did), and presumably did the work relying on that. Don't you think he's entitled to be paid?

At least try to cut a deal with him. The error here, it seems to me, wasn't his so he should not be penalized for it.
I agree totally. (nm)OffTheBack
Aug 8, 2002 10:28 AM
Forgetting the whole legal anglePODIUMBOUNDdotCA
Aug 8, 2002 10:39 AM
My problem is completely 100% he went to my mom for approval and went off this. And as such the TEAM is on the hook for this money. I understand too that he was under somewhat of a deadline that I gave him as well. But this deadline had to be okayed by my team since total cost would be $1000. Our team bank account has nothing in it.

Thanks,
Nick
re: Need help with legal issuerob45
Aug 8, 2002 10:30 AM
sounds like the guy was acting in good faith and was trying to get something done to meet your deadline. Since your mom gave him permission, there might be some interpretation that she was acting as an agent on your behalf, though I'm not a lawyer. Doesn't sound like he was ripping you off. I'd try to make some kind of amiable deal with him. He could probably take you to small claims court otherwise.
What the hell was your mom thinking?...eschelon
Aug 8, 2002 10:40 AM
And what the hell was the t-shirt dude thinking? Sounds like to me no one was thinking...and this whole "do the right thing" bullshit has got to go. This is business and that guy should have known better than to talk to some person on the phone who had nothing to do with the whole transaction. Screw him. You are in no way obligated to complete this transaction because you never authorized it...and your mother doesn't count as a representative of your interests. If this guy wants to get paid by you, he should've held off until you got back with him...otherwise, he needs to come to an agreement with you on this whole matter...until then, don't get bullied into thinking he's got you by the balls...because it's you that has his balls in your hands.
What the hell was your mom thinking?...a revisionamflyer
Aug 8, 2002 1:35 PM
And what was the t-shirt dude thinking? Sounds like to me no one was thinking...and this whole "do the right thing" idea has got to go. Trust in Jesus. This is business and that guy should have known better than to talk to some person on the phone who had nothing to do with the whole transaction. Forget him. I am secure in my masculinity. You are in no way obligated to complete this transaction because you never authorized it...and your mother doesn't count as a representative of your interests. Save the whales. If this guy wants to get paid by you, he should've held off until you got back with him. I love each and every one of you. Otherwise, he needs to come to an agreement with you on this whole matter...until then, don't get bullied into thinking he's got you in a bad situation...because it's you that has him in a bad situation.
Technically, you probably are not legally obligated unless youbill
Aug 8, 2002 11:30 AM
gave the guy reason to think that your mother had the authority to make that kind of a commitment (which she apparently didn't understand, anyway). It's called apparent agency, so that if, for example, you had told the guy to call your mom about other things, he reasonably could believe that your mom was authorized. Maybe.
Another theory is that you should pay because you have benefited from the work performed. Did the guy get the stuff to you when you otherwise would not have had it? If so, there are several legal theories that could make you obligated to pay, such as your having ratified the deal and some other legal beagle latin phrases that are designed to convince you that I truly am a dork beyond all recognition.
Now, think about this. If you're not on the hook, then who is? Two choices. The guy or your mom. Need more facts to say. Was the guy an idiot for taking your mom's word? If not, then the loss should fall on your mom, who placed herself at risk by agreeing to the deal.
For $275, if the guy came through and is not just ripping you off, do the friggin right thing and pay up or at least split it with him.
Bill's Rightsidley
Aug 8, 2002 2:09 PM
The argument you are cotemplating is called "foisting:" that someone forced service or goods on you without you having an opportunity to reject.

I doubt that, in your capacity as team manager, your mom would have objective apparent authority to bind you or your team.

But, as I have learned, contracts law has little to do with sound business practice. They guy was clearly trying to help you out and it's $275 Canadian - that aint a lot.
Sounds like he was.....Len J
Aug 8, 2002 11:39 AM
damned if he did & damnded if he didn't. He sounds like he was trying to do the right thing to meet your deadline and had to decide to either accept your mothers OK or not meet the deadline. I suspect you would hav been pissed either way.

I agree with mostly everyone else, do the right thing. Forget who is legally bound, talk to him & try to both realize that you are both culpable and split the difference. If you like his work, if you don't work it out, he'll (rightfully) never do business with you again.

Len
re: Need help with legal issuefbg111
Aug 8, 2002 11:57 AM
Is that $275 per T-shirt, or $275 total for all 48 T-shirts? Sounds like it was the former, but your mom thought it was the latter.

If the former, then that's rediculous. The guy may have been trying to take advantage of your absence by getting your mom to sign off on a huge charge she wasn't aware of.

If the latter, then I'd say at ~$6 per T-shirt, you got a good deal, in time for the race, and just accept it.
CostPODIUMBOUNDdotCA
Aug 8, 2002 12:15 PM
The cost was a one time $275 for the artwork for all the t-shirts and the film used to print them. Because the t-shirts are the same page as our team website (www.podiumbound.ca) it needs to be put on in a bunch of different colors which the films are used for. So this is a one time fee that once we've paid we'll never have to pay again. But its spread out on top of the cost of printing the t-shirts which is around $15 each.

Thanks,
Nick
PodiumBound.ca
re: Costfbg111
Aug 8, 2002 4:41 PM
ic. I've had bad experience making T-shirts before, and given your guy's taking the initiative to get them to you in time for your race, I'd say that was pretty cool of him, even if he did screw up by going to your mom. Sounds like his intentions were in the right place. If I were in your situation I would probably explain to him what happened and try to work out way to pay him off over time or split the cost or something. Good customer service is nothing to take for granted, but you gotta make sure he knows he inadvertently put you in a bad spot.
re: Need help with legal issuemr_spin
Aug 8, 2002 12:55 PM
If I understand correctly, the $275 is a setup charge, and the T-shirts are extra.

The guy should not have accepted the approval of your mom. That was stupid. Your mom was not acting as your agent, so technically, you are not obligated to pay.

But...if you plan on getting T-shirts made from this guy or any other guy, you are going to have to pay the same setup charge. So the $275 this isn't really an issue unless you had decided BEFOREHAND not to have any T-shirts made, or to go with someone else. If you changed your mind afterwards and think you've found a way out of the deal, that's unethical in my book.

If you still want the T-shirts, call this guy up and bitch about how your mom had no right to approve anything. Maybe because of his blunder, he'll give you a better deal on the shirts.
What was mom thinking?jtolleson
Aug 8, 2002 2:25 PM
Someone here screwed up, that's clear. Was it your mom? I mean, we're all assuming she had no authority to bind you or your team... but what was she thinking to hear the terms of the deal and say "OK" ?? And is it so unreasonable for him to have assumed that she must have discussed it with you and that all was copacetic?

And it would appear you were on a tight deadline, which he knew, so he thought he got the go ahead from someone in the "know" at YOUR home, and then jumped. Now he gets stiffed on the deal? Well, that doesn't seem too fair.

Interesting to see that some folks here want to cling to the hypertechnical and consider doing the right thing to be "BS," but to me this isn't even a close call.
The mom has nothing to do with the issue.Spoke Wrench
Aug 8, 2002 2:23 PM
The issue is: Did you want the t-shirts?

If you had been home when the guy called, you would have been in the same position of having to make an on the spot decision to either pay the price or not get the shirts.

Welcome to the adult world. Things don't go the way we want them to go all of the time. Truth is, most of the time we have to make decisions with an important piece of data that we wish we had missing. Don't you wish that you had the luxury of talking with your team mates before making that commitment? Get used to it because that's the way it is most of the time. Like I say, Welcome to the adult world.

Am I correct in assuming that you and your team got the t-shirts on time and wore them to your event? If that's the case, pay the man. Somebody goes out on a limb to give you extra quick service when he can't get a hold of you personally and you sound like you want to stiff the guy on some technicality. I think that's pretty low.
We never got the t-shirts... the charge was just for the artworkPODIUMBOUNDdotCA
Aug 8, 2002 3:22 PM
The $275 is for the artwork and film (used in the printing of the shirts which has not been made yet). So basically I got the artwork and the guy said your now on the hook for $275 but we can change the artwork before we print the t-shirts for you.

Thanks for you help and everyone elses,
Nick
PodiumBound.ca
re: Need help with legal issuegwendolynofthemountain
Aug 8, 2002 2:52 PM
I think the boy and his mom have some issues to work out. Who's business dealings are these? If the mom is talking to the shirt guy, she probably has some investment, personal or otherwise in this deal. Sounds to be like mother and son did not communicate effectively and now shirtguy has to lose his because of that. Why did she say anthing and why did the guy even speak with her, beyond, have your son call me ASAP.

Pay for the shirts. sheesh poor shirtguy. then again...
re: Need help with legal issuegwendolynofthemountain
Aug 8, 2002 2:56 PM
P.S. "irregardless" is not a word.
OMG that is one of my linguistic pet peevesjtolleson
Aug 8, 2002 3:13 PM
I go on another board where a guy uses it all the time, except he spells it "irreguardless" (which must be defined as "without consideration of advice given by the national guard."

Methinks.
Unfortunately...Mel Erickson
Aug 9, 2002 7:46 AM
it is a word. Here's what Merriam-Webster has to say about it.

Main Entry: ir·re·gard·less
Pronunciation: "ir-i-'gärd-l&s
Function: adverb
Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
Date: circa 1912
nonstandard : REGARDLESS
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.
split the $275 with your mom, perhaps???weiwentg
Aug 8, 2002 4:42 PM
I don't know how that'll work out, but you could ask; it sounds like it was partly her mistake. also, what does the rest of the team have to say?
do the right thing. your artist may have been mistaken, but it doesn't sound like he was foisting anything on you. ask him for a discount, perhaps?
hope it works out.