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So, what's SO BAD about airborne???(33 posts)

So, what's SO BAD about airborne???bigdeal
Jul 24, 2002 1:23 PM
It seems to me there's always someone making a joke or simply bashing airborne bikes. I recently started looking to upgrade from steel (LeMond Zurich) to Ti, with Litespeed (aka Overpriced, Name-Brand-Oriented) and Airborne (aka Affordable) in mind. Seeing all the jokes on the board though, I have to wonder if there is some REAL reason the brand is dealt such a hard hand? Or is this simply the case of "I'd rather pay twice as much for Nike shoes which cost double what Brooks or Asics would cost, and receive a product (Nike) of lesser quality"?
It seems to me that the geometry is simular, and the material has the same purity classification. What's the story?
re: So, what's SO BAD about airborne???TJeanloz
Jul 24, 2002 1:37 PM
With bicycles in general, and titanium bicycles in particular, it's sometimes hard to seperate the marketing from everything else.

The issue is really that Airborne has marketed itself as comparable with Litespeed, Seven, Serotta and Moots, at a much lower price, when it isn't quite the same. While Airborne makes fine bikes, and quite competitive at their price points, they just don't compare with more expensive ti. The finishing, which is really what you're paying a lot for, isn't there with Airborne. The ride quality is comparable to what you'd see in a similarly priced bike, but not as good as top-shelf ti.

The company has also committed a few faux pas (what is the plural of faux pas?) that have knocked them down. Being owned by Huffy doesn't help, and encouraging customers to post glorious messages on internet message boards tends to backfire.

Airborne makes a good bike for the money, and is certainly a value leader, but they try and sell bikes just because they're ti, and presume that all ti is created equally, which it certainly is not.
Standard commercial practiceelviento
Jul 24, 2002 2:25 PM
KIA/Hyundai commercials compare themselves to Honda and Toyota "same AC, air bag, power window..., but longer warranty, 1000s cheaper", etc. Exactly the same logic.

I must admit they were smart enough not to compare to Porche, BMW, etc.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhh! And we were doing so well. . .js5280
Jul 24, 2002 2:23 PM
It's been pretty quiet around here as far as Airborne bashing. There's nothing BAD about Airborne bikes. They're good quality, excellent performance, bikes. Now, that aren't quite a great a value as they used to be. I bought mine 2 years ago, Zepplin Ultegra Triple w/ some upgrades for under $2k. Now it's starting about $2400 and at that point, there are many other Ti competitors. Douglas and Macalau come immediately to mind. You can also find Litespeeds on discount at this price point.

Here's what the Airborne naysayers always come up with. .

1) Airborne is owned ultimately by Huffy. So what? Big deal. Daimler-Chrysler makes Dodge Neons and Mercedes. Is my SL500 a piece of crap now?

2) It's welded in China thus the welding must be crap and you're a pinko-commie. Well, if the welding was crap I'm sure you're see at least some people complaining about it either here or through the grapevine if it were a rampant problem. I've seen and heard about Litespeeds cracking up, but still that doesn't make them crap. As for supporting a communist-county with human rights violations. Well, history can't be changed but most rational people can conclude that including countries in the global economy tends to improve conditions for it's people and lessens human-rights abuses.

3) The leap of faith. A while back you could only get an Airborne on-line so you wouldn't get a chance to ride one before hand. Some people won't do that. Now you can find Airbornes to test ride at a LBS. Also, you had rely on measurements to fit you to the right frame. Airborne is very good at this process and if you're a fairly standard size rider, their rules should work well for you. You can also return the bike if it doesn't fit as expected. Also going to an LBS doesn't guarantee you'll get a good fit either.

4) It's not as good as Litespeed or other chi-chi Ti frame in quality, performance, etc. They're probably right, Airborne has to keep costs down some how. The question really though is "Is the extra you pay worth it to you?" For 99% of us, the difference isn't going to magically make us one of Lance's lieutenants and difference will be paid by our new cycling contract or podium winnings. We just want a good, comfortable, quality bike for everyday riding. Pretty much any of the Airborne's are just that. Great riding Ti bikes with excellent quality and at a competitive price.

BTW I've never had anyone heckles the bike that has actually seen one. Most people come up and say, "Wow, those are really nice bikes." Plus You don't see many of them which is plus in my book. I never understood why some people get so worked up about Airbornes, fortunately those people are very, very few (and only seem to be on the internet) and probably need a fancy, expensive bike to make up for their own insecurities, not the added performance their hundreds or thousands more they might have paid extra.

So moral of the story, if you want others to think you have the best bike out there, don't get an Airborne. If you want to know you got a really great bike for the money, I'm sure you'd be more than happy with Airborne's products.
re: So, what's SO BAD about airborne???jtolleson
Jul 24, 2002 2:31 PM
You can get Airborne-like quality handmade in the US from Sampson or Dean (and others no doubt) so I simply have never understood Airborne's appeal. Or the Excel Sports Macalu (Litespeed built) is another option.

Nothing necessarily bad about Airborne that I know of, but I think there are other good options in affordable ti.

I think the generalization of Litespeed as "Overpriced Name-Brand-Oriented" doesn't really hold water. They've become ubiquitous and thus get bashed in their own way. And with Seven, Serotta, and Merlin's high-end options around, it is hard to trash Litespeed as a poseur bike (IMO). Besides that I don't believe in the concept of poseur bike.

Anyway, buy what you please and enjoy.
Have a look here too for a good deal on a ti road framespookyload
Jul 24, 2002 2:39 PM
I found it from the back pages of velo news. $599 is pretty tough to beat for a 3/2 ti road frame. From what I could gather from their sales rep it is the same frame that was sold as the Mongoose Pro frames.
Maybe it's time to stop using material as the #1 criteriumelviento
Jul 24, 2002 4:27 PM
for judging bikes. Yes they are all made of titanium, so what?

There are plenty of $3000 steel bikes around, but my first bike was also made of steel at $25. Should I consider both the same level bikes? Obviously not. Same thing with aluminum: $2500 Italian frames v. $80 Taiwan aluminum frames.

Then why should we talk about titanium bikes as if they are all in one narrow bracket? 10 year ago, maybe. but now? It rides a bit different from other materials, but there is no magic to it, as marketers would like you to believe. It's just another material for building bikes. It's said that titanium takes more labor to make. Yes it does take a bit more labor, but much less than you'd expect. Marketers say that so a spacer can be sold for $50 and a stem for $300. The titanium tubeset for a frame can be below $100, slightly more with butted/shaped tubing. I have polished a ti frame in 1.5 hours and it was beautifully done -- $15 dollars worth of labor.
Have to agree. . .js5280
Jul 24, 2002 7:33 PM
at $2500 you're getting into highly crafted aluminum and steel frames that can be as forgiving and light (or whatever characteristics you're looking for) as Ti along with top/near top of the line Campy or Shimano components. If Ti were the ultimate uber-material, I don't think we'd see Litespeed making new Al frames. So really the Ti benefit is going to be durability and low maintenance. Elviento point is excellent. Have to admit, Ti lust did play a part in my choice of a Airborne but I still have no regrets.
Have to agree. . .EricBH
Jul 25, 2002 3:59 AM
I agree mostly but, I don't think Litespeed is making AL frames because they think it is as good as Ti. I think it gives people an entry level price into the Litespeed brand.
Oh, boySteveS
Jul 24, 2002 6:45 PM
Man, its been ever so long since I have had an opportunity to jump into one of these discussions.

The real "problem" with Airborne is that they have been very successful in selling bikes, gotten excellent reviews, and at least initially, were a "threat" to local bike shops. If it were otherwise, especially with unhappy customers, you wouldn't even need to ask this question, the company would have failed. Success galls any number of internet "experts."

Airborne did not encourage people to post "glowing" reviews, just the truth..for a water bottle. Draw your own conclusion.

Got a chance to see my first Moots tonight, it looked great. Filthy but very nice. Did it send me into spasms of bike lust based on finish say, over my Carpe Diem? No, but the Moots looked very nice.

Watched a local critierium tonight and it appeared that every third bike was a Colnago, great bike with a great history. Still, I wouldn't want a bike that is so common. Lots of Litespeeds too. (Oh, yeah, I challenged some of these guys a couple of years ago to sell me a Tuscany to test against my Zeppelin; the Tuscany was probably double the price of the Z at that time...they didn't want to take the challenge. Maybe it was because I doubted any real superiority for double the price and refused to accept their internet posts as law. I still feel the same)

Did you see the review of high end titanium bikes on OLN a couple of weeks ago? Lennard Zinn (very tall reviewer) complained of a speed wobble on a tall Seven. Brand name and expense doesn't guarantee customer satisfaction. Airborne, however, does guarantee the customer's satisfaction or full money back. Dealers of competing brands hate that.

So, I have two Airbornes and am very happy.(and so are thousands of customers now) At the same time, I am encouraging a friend to get a custom Spectrum titanium frame so I am not glued at the hip to any brand. Ain't it fun?
I ammend earlier statements,TJeanloz
Jul 25, 2002 4:30 AM
You are, of course, correct in that Airborne did not encourage glowing reviews, they only encouraged people to post reviews, good or bad (even if the compensation was just a water bottle- that's still encouragement).

I believe I was the one who offered to sell you a Tuscany to compete with your Airborne, and you came back with all kinds of caveats and see-sawing- I think it was more like you wanted me to give the frame to you (but it was so long ago, I don't remember the details). I would still be happy to sell you a Tuscany, equipped identically to your Zeppelin, so that you can test the two side-by-side.

Lennard's reviews really drive me nuts, because he happens to sell bikes of his own brand, that he designed (very well, I might add) to ride well for tall riders. He's a terrible person to have reviewing a bike, because nobody makes a bike big enough for him, and he's about the only person who I would trust to design a bike for somebody 6'7" tall. So he can always critique a bike for having a 'bad design' because so few bikes are designed for riders as tall as he is. I assure you, there is no Airborne that would fit him, so he would have to get his money back.

I'm not saying that Airborne is a bad bike, I don't think I ever have (but I could be wrong). I don't think the Airborne, or the internet for that matter, was ever a 'threat' to local bike shops. We were certainly never worried about them. When they went to a dealer model, we considered bringing them in, as a lower cost alternative to Litespeed, offering some of the benefits of ti at a lower price point. The margin just wasn't there for it to make sense- but I would have liked to have them on the floor, so that I could have made direct comparisons to Litespeeds.

Look at it this way: If you boil down the Zeppelin's selling features; shaped tubes, 3/2.5 ti, etc. you get effectively something along the lines of an Arenburg or Tuscany. Selling Litespeeds, you had to learn to make the argument about why the Vortex or Palmares was better than the Arenburg or Tuscany. Differentiating among titanium bikes had to be done, and Airborne was pretty easy to establish as the low end, admittedly based more on finish quality than anything else. But finish quality is important to most (surely not all) people.

I have ridden a Litespeed, Merlin and Airborne side-by-side, and I preferred the Litespeed, and then the Merlin, but can't really be objective, as those were both my personal bikes, and the Airborne was not (so it wasn't really as perfectly comfortable for me).

I would be happy to sell you a Litespeed so that you can compare for yourself.
The dealSteveS
Jul 25, 2002 7:48 AM
The deal I offerred a year or two ago was to buy the Tuscany at the retail price, whatever it was, however, the caveat was and is that I get the exact same satisfaction guarantee that I received from Airborne. That is, there is no reason to buy a Litespeed or any other frame if in my opinion, I don't find that it is indeed superior to my Zeppelin, even more so when the retail price of the Litespeed was at that time double the price of the Airborne. I would be happy to use my own wheels in a side by side comparison.

The whole concept was this: if the high end bikes were so much better than the bargain Airborne, then it had to be obvious in riding, not just finish. (the new Airborne "high lust" finish is quite nice by the way) If the Litespeed wasn't superior in the view of the purchaser(me), then it would be a waste of $2,000-$3,000 when one is quite happy with bike A. So, I buy, I ride, I test side by side; if bike L. impresses me greatly, I keep it. If Bike L. doesn't seem any real enhancement over Bike A., I return Bike L. for a full refund. This is the same deal that Airborne offers to each and every purchaser, a 10 day trial. I would think that Litespeed should have the same faith in their product. For me, it is a no lose deal...if I get a better bike (based on my opinion only), so be it, if not, the bike gets picked up by UPS and I get my money back.

Just match the specifics of the Airborne 10 day satisfaction guarantee and we are cool, otherwise, if I were inclined, I could just drive a half mile down the street to the local Litespeed dealer. Obviously thus far, I haven't been so inclined to drop $3K locally after having ridden Ibis and Merlin titanium bikes and being very disappointed at their hyped "superiority."

Zinn, well he admits he is quite tall and the frames aren't a perfect fit. Still, a speed wobble is a fairly serious ding and I think Phinney mentioned chain rub on the Seven. See, it, the intrinsic quality of the bike, is in the opinion of the reviewer, not an absolute across the board based on decals or welds. Imagine someone dropping $5K on a high end titanium bike and having no satisfaction guarantee, just a "like it or lump it" opinion from the seller. Bad deal.
You're right, that was it,TJeanloz
Jul 25, 2002 8:48 AM
The satisfaction was the trouble with the deal, now I remember it. Because of the business model, its was simply not feasible for me to offer such a guarantee to somebody sight unseen. I did offer that assurance to everybody who came into the shop, but it's not something that I think is do-able via mail-order.

The other issue is that it was up to you to decide what was "real enhancement"; and some people (like my girlfriend) can't tell the difference between a Ferrari and a Hyundai, so I have no assurance that you will be discerning enough to notice, or put any value on, a difference.

As for Zinn, speed wobble will occur on any very large bike, except for a custom Zinn, which has been designed explicitly to address the issue. And the idea that Davis Phinney, one of the greatest sprinters of his generation, would get some chain rub with a stock Seven seems perfectly reasonable- I assure you, he'll get chain rub in an Airborne or 99% of other bikes.
Jul 25, 2002 10:35 AM
I certainly hope that you aren't calling an Airborne a Hyundai and a Litespeed a Ferrari.

And if your girlfriend can't tell the difference between those two cars, I am concerned for her........and you as well.

Jul 25, 2002 10:52 AM
Hyndai has a better warranty and customer service. And will reach 100,000 miles with fewer repairs.
A more realistic comparison would be Infiniti vs Lexus.
Each has its own following.
Nothing, really...seyboro
Jul 24, 2002 7:22 PM
Went down the Piggly Wiggly the other day and bought some cereal.
Didn't get Kellogs; tasted O.K., though.
I guess.
Well, maybe the raisins were a little smaller and the flakes a little soggier and it didn't have a toy on the inside.
Tasted O.K., though, didn't it?!
I'm gonna get my Kellogs next time.
Same thing with Litespeeds and Airbornes.
Airborne is a price point bike.Juanmoretime
Jul 25, 2002 1:45 AM
I don't own a Airborne, I've seen them up close and it appears to be a very nice frame for the money. I ride a Litespeed and the finish is more refined and the welds look much better than the Airborne. That does not make it a better riding bike. The fit is the most important element of the whole equation. So for over triple the cost of an Airborne, what did I get? For all I know I just have a nicer looking, harder material (6.4) for the drop outs and bottom bracket shell, if that really makes a difference, I don't really know and possibly and once or two lighter bike, big deal. The Litespeed fits into my budget and it fits me, if it didn't I would hesitate to buy and ride an Airborne, provided it fit me properly, of course.
The blatant spamming by Airborne??Alexx
Jul 25, 2002 4:51 AM
Every time a new model comes out, suddenly there are 20 people that nobody knows, claiming that the latest Airborne product is the greatest thing since the pneumatic tire. Then, they fill the review section with suspiciously similar reviews, in order to skew the results so that they look to be nearly perfect. Also, Airborne has publicly attempted to skew the results in the review section here by giving away free merchandise for reviews.

Some of us recognize that Airborne is trying to horswaggle us with their propaganda, and use this forum (as well as others) to point out the truth. Of course, some Airborne-blowhard will always take exception to this, claiming that no such thing is happening, and that it is mere coincedence that these things happen. Yeah, right.

Also, the fact that Huffy owns Airborne may have something to do with it.............

In all honesty, I've actually rode an Airborne once. The workmanship was adequate, but the welds were mediocre. The bike weighed more than any titanium bike should, and, in the end, you could buy a similar steel bike for less, and end up with a lighter bike! (I fail to see the advantage to Airborne bikes in particular, or in titanium in general, especially when there is no weight reduction.)

You can do better, even if the other bike manufacturer doesn't have a snazzy website.
The blatant spamming by Airborne??PeugeotSuccess
Jul 25, 2002 5:55 AM
Does anyone take the results in the review section seriously? It seems to me once the price of a bike gets over $2000, the review is sure to be 5 out of 5! Are bikes over that price great regardless of material, or are we reluctant to rate lower after spending that kind of cash on a bicycle? I'm looking for a bike in that price range, I'm sure I will rate it 5 out of 5! I guess Trek, Litespeed, Seven, etc are not allowed to spam in this group or on the reviews? So much for the results.
a word about Airborne's reviews on this sitegregg
Jul 25, 2002 7:03 AM
Just wanted to clarify that Airborne let me know "before-hand" that they wanted to run a newsletter campaign to get Airborne riders to write reviews on our site. I reviewed their offer and approved it. They were offering free water bottles to owner's that came to our site and wrote a review. After discussion with my collegues here, I determined that there is nothing wrong with this, as long as Airborne did not try to "sway" the reviews in any manner (which they didn't).

In short, we appreciate Airborne recognizing what a valuable resource RoadbikeREVIEW is. If Trek or Specialized or Litespeed wanted to do the same thing, we would allow them the same access.

thanks Gregg!Tifosiman
Jul 25, 2002 7:37 AM

Thanks for the clarification of the facts here.

thanks Gregg!firstrax
Jul 25, 2002 10:37 AM
Anyone who spends advertising dollars here cant be all that bad.

An elated Zeppelin owner.
re: So, what's SO BAD about airborne???otiebob
Jul 25, 2002 5:56 AM
Enough conspiracy theories on Airborne - they just don't hold water. The truth is simply that most people who buy them like the product and the company's customer service. The CEO regularly interacts with customers and Airborne's efforts to please the customer go well beyond point of purchase. Regardless, the oft-criticized water bottle giveaway was for ALL reviews - positive AND negative.

As for weight, I think the Zeppelin is an average weight frame, some are lighter, others aren't, but that's not really the main selling point for it. The ride qualities and longevity of the product are paramount. If super-light weight is your main goal, why buy Ti (except for the flexy/pricey LS Ghisallo)anyways? Scandium and CF are often lighter but in the case of the former, they don't last long, and in the case of the latter, they may not have the ride qualities you're looking for.

Ultimately, the poster who mentioned Macalu, Dean, and Sampson makes a good point. All of these frames are comparable to the Airborne Zep and make for a fair comparison. If you don't want a bike manufactured in China, don't buy one. If you want a well-made, lifetime guaranteed bike that rides well and has outstanding customer service, consider Airborne. I assure you, I wasn't forced to drink any purple kool-aid, chant any special mantras, or any other brainwashing techniques in purchasing the bike. I like the bike and I like how the company has treated me - period.

Go ride one before attempting to make an informed opinion.

Went to the Target the other day...Uncle Tim
Jul 25, 2002 6:56 AM
...and looked at their line of bikes. All of them were Made In China and had really nasty welds. But they were dirt cheap.

Went to a LBS the other day. Looked at their average bikes aimed at kids and ride up and down the street casual riders. All were stamped with Made in China or Made in Taiwan. Nasty welds everywhere. But they were all priced real low.

Went to a big department-style sorting goods store and saw some of the new aluminum Lightspeeds that are stamped with Made in Taiwan. Had some nasty welds that really made me wonder what Litespeed is thinking. Nothing like the quality of the Ti Litespeeds. But the Made in Taiwan bikes had flashy paint and low sticker prices.

So along comes Airborne and it Made in China quality products. They, like so many other bicycle manufacturers, see a way to undercut the quality manufacturers by selling an inferior product at a slightly lower price. The cheapskates that they appeal to ("I can get more bang for the buck!") fall for this ploy, saving a few bucks while strutting about saying "I have a Ti bike, too".

Yeah, they saved a few bucks. And they have a titanium frame. But they still have an Airborne. Made in China.
bingo (nm)Jekyll
Jul 25, 2002 7:16 AM
false premiseDougSloan
Jul 25, 2002 7:35 AM
..."by selling an inferior product" -- you made sense until you said this, without any substantiation.

false premiseSteveS
Jul 25, 2002 7:53 AM
Correct assesment, Doug. This is typical of some of the "expert" internet posters.

I can test my Airborne against my Spectrum daily, the latter being much,much more expensive than the former. And the result? Both are outstanding rides, whether made in China or Pennsylvania by one of the top master builders in the U.S.
Went to the Target the other day...otiebob
Jul 25, 2002 10:50 AM
Clearly you didn't pay attention in Logic 101. Just because SOME frames made in China or Taiwan are poorly made does not allow you to ASSume that ALL Chinese/Taiwanese frames are poorly made. The food at Denny's and McDonald's is poor quality cuisine, therefore ALL American restaurants have shitty food?!?!? Not valid.

As for this "cheapskate," rather than "strutting about" with my Airborne, I simply ride the hell out of it and leave the expert opinions on quality of welds and national products to welders and economists.

Sounds to me like you have a problem with things made in China and Taiwan but you don't substantiate your claims of inferior quality very well and thus, you are talking out of your all-American arse.

Proof is in the pudding - see ya on the roads...
Probably nothing.djg
Jul 25, 2002 7:24 AM
People who have them generally seem to like them. There's one that's often in the bike rack I use at the office and it looks fine--not the prettiest construction and finishing I've seen, but absolutely fine.

I do think that your question regarding geometry, while sensible, may imply more similarity of ride than is necessary. First, similar geometry is not identical and small differences can matter. Of course, any fool can reverse engineer a bike's geometry, if that's all he's shooting for, and it's worth noting that there is no single geometry that describes all high-end (whatever that is) bikes. There's also rather a lot to do with the ride that, although it has a geometric component, isn't really what folks talk about when they talk about "geometry" (I'm thinking, e.g., of tube shaping). That actually raises a point for which Airborne has received some ridicule: on the Zepplin model at least, it appears that some of the tube shaping might charitably be described as decorative (it doesn't all really seem to make sense). On the other hand, the general word on the Airborne ride is that it's pretty comfortable and stable--a bit on the flexy side for some tastes, but certainly not bad and maybe quite good for many people's wants/needs.

My opinion on the bottom line is that Airborne probably offers a decent frame at a decent price, although maybe not as decent a price as a few years ago. Also, their build kits are a bit on the expensive side, erasing some of the "bargain" factor. Can you get something different elsewhere? Yes. Can spending more money actually buy something other than a name? Yes, absolutely. But is an Airborne a real road bike? Sure it is.
Jul 25, 2002 7:32 AM
I think the only complaints about Airborne are the fact that they are made in China and they are cheaper than most other Ti bikes. People who spend $3,000 on a Ti frame sure as hell don't want others thinking they are foolish by spending about $2,200 more than they should have, so they bash Airborne.

I had an Airborne Lucky Strike mountain bike. It was wonderful. It weighed under 21 pounds. I sold it to a guy who has raced it very well for 2 seasons now.

I partly bought the Airborne because I, at the time, did not want a bike with a Litespeed, Merlin, or Seven logo on it. Sort of anti-snobbery. Some others might think the same. I realize that sounds weird coming from a guy with a C40, but that's how I felt at the time.

For the money, Airborne's are fantastic bikes. Further, if you don't have a good LBS that would work with you in parting the bike, the Airborne website makes it easy to get more or less what you want and not have to search all over for parts or buy a bike with parts you don't want and then spend extra money swapping things out.

So, IMO, nothing is wrong with Airbornes (except I don't like sloping top tubes on road bikes or seat stays that don't join the seat tube at the same place as the top tube, but that's just me).

the geometry of Airbornes is kinda funky though (nm)ColnagoFE
Jul 25, 2002 8:03 AM
they're actually pretty nice bikes for the $....julio
Jul 25, 2002 11:18 PM
My father owns an Airborne, he bought it (Zeppellin) with Ultegra and a Rolf wheelset for $1400, he talked with the CEO on the phone and got a deal on a "demo bike", but it was in good as new condition. I think that's a good deal. While I really prefer buying stuff that's made in the USA too, Airborne's quality is not bad. I've been welding since I was 16 and have worked in machine shops and I think their manufacturing quality is just fine. Their finish (I think it's bead blasted) that everyone is complaining about isn't bad either, though blasting can be used to hide poor workmanship. I haven't heard anyone bashing the Dean Rada bike Jenson is selling and it is just a mass produced straight gauge Ti bike.. If you can afford a Merlin go for it, but if you can't and want a nice Ti bike try an Airborne, you may be surprised. Every time I visit my Dad I take his Zeppellin around the block a few times, it's just a fun bike to ride. You do remember that this is supposed to fun, don't you?
and another thing..julio
Jul 25, 2002 11:39 PM
When my Dad first got his Zeppellin he kept getting flat tires, he called Airborne and they thought that something was wrong with the tire casings and sent him a new pair of Axial Pros (back when they sold for $40 each)the same day. Fixed the problem with virtually no down time, and they were making up for Michellin's mistakes, that's pretty good service...