|Ahhhh! It is nice to see a Litespeed Vortex take another||Lazywriter|
Jul 9, 2002 2:26 PM
|win. Like I said, race proven bike. Call it bait and flame all you want. But GOD DAMN it is an awesome bike.|
|Call it a spoiler||klay|
Jul 9, 2002 2:37 PM
|Man... is it so hard to type *spoiler* in the subject line?
No, it's not. I guess some folks just like to out of their way to be complete @$$es.
|What the Lotto riders say...||Wayne|
Jul 9, 2002 3:18 PM
|I happened through a friend of a friend of a friend, etc. to have dinner with a guy who races as a top amateur in Holland and is a sports reporter. Good friend of one of the guys on Lotto, so hangs out/rides with them, etc.
He said almost all of them don't like the bikes, esp. the big guys because they're too flexy. Only the climbers and the little guys like them he said and interestingly one of the one's he mentioned as being a fan of the bike was McEwen!
So, different strokes for different folks!
|LOL, The Lotto guys have been winning like||Lazywriter|
Jul 9, 2002 3:30 PM
|crazy on their new rides. Cyclesport even had a blurb about the tear they have been on. Not because of the new bikes, but they aren't slowing them down either. The Vortex may not be all things, but it is not flexy. Friend of a friend of a friend. HAHAHAHA LOLOLOLOLOLOL|
|Well, I can give you the guy's name...||Wayne|
Jul 10, 2002 2:46 AM
|if you want, and you can look him up and take up the issue with him. I'm not trying to enter into some silly polemic on whether or not the price of a Litespeed justifies it's performance, I could care less. Just passing on some info that I received secondhand that I thought some might find interesting.|
|What a local former pro said...||Leroy|
Jul 9, 2002 4:13 PM
|Manager of a local lbs here just came back from 4 or 5 years pro racing in Europe [out of Belgium/Flanders] and he said, in passing, the same thing about ti, that it is too flexy. Wasn't talking about Litespeed, just ti in general. This guy likes steel.
|Ti can be flexy, but the Vortex is not your||Lazywriter|
Jul 9, 2002 4:55 PM
|garden variety ti bike. I weigh more than I would like, but at 190-200 lbs, it is very very stiff ride. Steel is and always will be the metal by which all are judged, but all materials have their advantages and disadvantages. What I don't get is when people criticize Litespeeds for being pricey, but high end aluminum with a much shorter fatigue life and the fact that is a cheaper material and easier to work with, is just as expensive as my Vortex. Lightweight aluminum will get one season with a pro, a Vortex could get at least 3-5 and still be almost like new.|
|I'm just relaying what the guy said...||Wayne|
Jul 10, 2002 2:41 AM
|I've never ridden a Vortex or any Litespeed for that matter and could careless whether it's an "A+" Bike or just an "A" bike. I'm sure relative to all the bikes you could buy it's a great bike but apparently for guys like Tchmil they find it flexy. Don't shoot the messenger!|
|Doesn't matter--S Kelly won plenty on a flexy AL Vitus...(nm)||ColnagoFE|
Jul 10, 2002 5:57 AM
Jul 9, 2002 3:32 PM
|You want a "race proven bike," you gotta acknowledge the C40 as the king. Probably more of them in the div 1 pros than anything else, including last year's world champion. Plus, except for the seat stays, I think it's pretty much been been the same bike for over 10 years. (tjeanloz can tell us for certain) That's "proven."
Nonetheless, I'd bet those guys could do equally as well on any top level bike from any major manufacturer. The make of bike is pretty insignificant.
|I am with Doug..||koala|
Jul 9, 2002 6:36 PM
|The winner would have won on many different bikes.|
|Well, no sh#% Sherlock,||Lazywriter|
Jul 9, 2002 6:56 PM
|Point is that the "lowly, crappy, trite, cliched, poorly made, poor quality controlled" Litespeed was able to cross the line first. Face it McGewen wouldn't of won on a Ross or a Schwinn World Sport. Race proven. All the other snobbish boutique ti riding morons can kiss my a$$. LOL hahahahahahaha|
|Well, no sh#% Sherlock,||koala|
Jul 10, 2002 4:47 AM
|Are you in any way real?|
|Litespeed Vortex: Cycling's proof of PT Barnum's philosophy||Gangsta|
Jul 9, 2002 3:48 PM
|There's a sucker born every minute. Let me guess Lazywrither, you own one.|
|Nah, the sucker's bike is the Trekkie OCLV....||Niwot|
Jul 9, 2002 6:55 PM
|Want proof? Take a look at the current issue of VeloNews.
On page 21, in an article about Floyd Landis, it says, "There, on a crooked pathway in Belgium, Landis destroyed one of several Treks he went through this spring."
No problem for Floyd when that happens, they just hand him another bike and he goes on his way. But guess what, folks? If you're not on the USPS team, and you plunk down your own money for an OCLV, they won't just keep handing you brand new frames every time that happens to you.
|errr, yes they will||texfan|
Jul 9, 2002 6:59 PM
|the joys of a lifetime frame warranty. Maybe not as quick as Floyd, but you can't have everything.|
|Nope -- they'll glue your frame back together||Niwot|
Jul 9, 2002 7:15 PM
|Your "lifetime warranty" doesn't mean you get a brand new frame every time anything happens to it. Trek looks at your frame and, in their sole discretion, decides whether they want to try and repair it. If they want to repair it, they send you back your old frame after applying the glue and a new coat of gloss, or whatever. They are under no obligation to give you a brand new frame, ever. It's entirely up to them.
Plus, your warranty only covers JRA ("just riding around") use. If you crack the frame riding off-road, or it falls off your car rack and breaks, or you crack it up in a crash at your local crit, Trek can void your warranty.
True, *any* bike warranty has the same exclusions. But if Lazywriter's Vortex falls off his car rack, or if he wipes out in a crit, his Ti frame will have nothing more than scratches and will still be bombproof.
Can't say the same about your OCLV. If you baby it, and never race, and never leave the pavement, and never drop it off your car rack, and you're not over 200 pounds, it'll probably last you a very long time. But it is nowhere near as durable as a good Ti or steel frame. And if you buy it with your own money and you don't have a fleet of other bikes in the garage, durability is a very real concern, and you might not want to spend $1500 on a certain frame when a racer cracks up "several" of that same frame in one spring. JMO.
|"they will glue your frame back together". So?||elviento|
Jul 9, 2002 9:07 PM
|"If they want to repair it, they send you back your old frame after applying the glue and a new coat of gloss, or whatever. "
If they do a decent repair job and give you a new paintjob, what's the problem???
"Plus, your warranty only covers JRA ("just riding around") use. "
If that included regorous racing, which I think it does, then that's fine.
"If you crack the frame riding off-road, or it falls off your car rack and breaks, or you crack it up in a crash at your local crit, Trek can void your warranty. "
Why would you ride a road bike offroad? If it falls off your car rack at 70mph or against your garage, or is involved in a crash, then other bikes, Vortex or whatever, will also break, because bikes are not built to withstand such irregular damages. Otherwise, they would be overbuilt.
"True, *any* bike warranty has the same exclusions. But if Lazywriter's Vortex falls off his car rack, or if he wipes out in a crit, his Ti frame will have nothing more than scratches and will still be bombproof. "
Very bold statement. Titanium is a bit more dent proof than say beer can tubing, but I have dented a ti frame with 3al/2.5v 0.9mm tubing in an accident (most ti builders use the same or thinner tubing). At 40% the cost of a Vortex, and 1/3 pounds lighter, an OCLV is a great bike. And their warranty is excellent!
|If gluing your pride and joy is ok with you, then....||Niwot|
Jul 9, 2002 9:58 PM
|... if you're happy, you're happy. But if it was me, and I had spent that much money on a bike that breaks when I hit a pothole, I'd be upset at getting it "fixed" with Elmer's white paste or whatever.
And the pricing is much closer than you think. By comparison: A Trek 5900 (equipped with Dura-Ace) is $4299 right now at your local Trek dealer. A Litespeed Vortex (equipped with Dura-Ace and Dura-Ace wheels) is $4495 right now at Colorado Cyclist. Not that I own either one. But the $4299 Trek 5900 is a lot more than "40% of the cost of a Vortex". And there are many good Ti frames that are priced much less than a Trek 5900 or a Litespeed Vortex.
Also, you are turning a blind eye to the vast difference between the durability of OCLV vs. the greater durability of Ti or steel. Floyd Landis, according to VeloNews, cracked up "several" Trek OCLV frames this spring. We're not talking about losing *one* frame in a horrific crash. Breaking "several" frames in one spring means Floyd was probably cracking about one frame every other week. That doesn't happen with Ti or steel frames.
To be fair, it does happen to other carbon frames -- last year, a VeloNews story mentioned that some "stronger" riders on LOOK-sponsored teams end up riding LOOK Al frames after they break the LOOK carbon frames.
|Let me ask you a couple of questions.||elviento|
Jul 10, 2002 11:49 AM
|1. Have you ever broken a Trek frame by hitting a pothole?
2. Do you know for a fact that Trek frames are repaired with white paste? Or are you just bull***ting?
3. Is it fair to compare LBS prices with mail order prices?
4. Isn't 5500 rather than 5900 the model ridden by most posties, especially Floyd Landis?
5. Do you know the MSRP of a Vortex plus Reynolds fork is $3450 ($3100+350), while OCLV retails $1600?
6. You can pick up a second hand OCLV frameset any time for $700 on ebay (I paid $725 for mine and the deal included BB, King headset, and shipping), what about Vortex?
7. Does it matter to normal folks that some pro rider has broken his bike equipment? Have you noticed that the best riders aren't exactly the ones known to break bike equipment?
8. If, according to you, the OCLV frames break every other week, yet they are so much cheaper than Litespeed, wouldn't Trek be bankrupt by now just from so many unpaid repair jobs? But last time I checked they are doing fine...
I really don't want to start a flame or be attacked, but Litespeed in my own experience has some serious workmanship issues. An Ultimate frame I bought (this is one of the few times I bought a frame brand new from a dealer), and had some a painful experience that I don't even want to talk about it any more.
|Let me ask you a couple of questions.||Niwot|
Jul 10, 2002 3:07 PM
|First off, let me say this -- I don't have an ax to grind. I don't work for Litespeed, I don't have a Vortex to defend (they're pricey, though I'd certainly ride it if someone gave me one for free). But carbon frames are not as durable as Ti or steel. Trek and other mfr's have improved reliability in the past 10 years, but a well-made Ti or steel frame is more durable. There's no getting around that.
As for your questions:
1. I know someone who broke their frame riding it off-road on a dirt path. He said he paid to have it repaired.
2. No, they're not repaired with white paste, that was supposed to be humorous. White paste wouldn't bond well, IMO. (Now I'll probably get flamed by someone who works at Elmer's, but oh well.) They are probably repaired with the same glues and bonding materials used to hold the OCLV frame together in the first place.
3. I think it is fair to compare prices. Whether I spend $1000 at CC or $1000 at my LBS, it's still $1000 out of my bank account. Not advocating mail-order vs. LBS, just saying a dollar is a dollar. By the way, I've seen one Litespeed LBS dealer advertising the same price for the "Team Lotto" Vortex, for what it's worth.
4. Looks to me like the USPS guys are riding 5900s in the TdF and European races, from the photos and TV shots I've seen recently. I have no idea whether they ride one or the other or both for training. And I have no way of comparing the durability of the 5500 frame vs. the supposedly lighter 5900 frame.
5. I find the pricing amusing for both companies. For Trek, it seems like a better deal to buy the frame and fork (I think you're quoting the 5500 frame/fork price and the 5900 price is a few hundred bucks more); they gouge you with the price of the gruppo and kit. IIRC, even tho they charge $1600 for a frame/fork, they charge $3800 for a complete bike. $2200 for the gruppo and kit is way too much. Litespeed, on the other hand, has these very inflated "list prices", but they are constantly offering package deals that give you a better price, or just wait until September and they lop several hundred bucks off the price. And the mail-order places always discount the gruppo/kit price, probably taking a small loss on it, as an incentive for you to buy from them, as opposed to Trek who makes its money with high margins on the gruppo/kit. In addition to the complete Vortex they are offering, CC says you now get a free fork with the purchase of any LS. Don't ask me why they have this yo-yo pricing strategy. Not that it has anything to do with the durability of anyone's bike.
6. I have never seen a pricing survey for bikes on eBay, so I can't say one way or the other what the "used market" is. Even if you could, you would have to verify whether each bike sold was in excellent/very good/good/poor condition to have a reliable pricing survey. I don't see how you could do that.
7. It does matter when pros break their frames, because when the break is not crash-related, a significant number of breaks indicates the frame might not be the most durable. Doesn't matter so much for pros; they can use some ultra-light-weight carbon or Al marvel and get a new one when it breaks, or a new one when they want even if it doesn't break, probably. I'd rather have a frame that I won't break so easily, because I don't want to buy a new one every year. If you buy a new one every year, you won't have to worry about the durability of an OCLV from 1999 or 2000, obviously.
8. The story about Landis breaking "several" OCLV frames this spring is on page 21 of the current VeloNews (with Armstrong on the cover). Read it for yourself. It's not a myth, it's right there in black and white (or whatever color they used on the page).
|Racing voids pretty much every warranty...||TJeanloz|
Jul 10, 2002 4:52 AM
|Almost every warranty (including those on Dura-Ace and Record) have "racing" as an illicit activity that will void the warranty.
Quoting directly from the Shimano warranty:
"This warranty does not cover the following:
Shimano products that have been modified, neglected or poorly maintained, used in competition or for commercial purposes, misused or abused or involved in accidents."
|Yeah, but floyd broke alot of bike's in his career.....||pa rider|
Jul 10, 2002 7:14 AM
|I raced on his first MTB team back in 1993. He broke a few GT Zaskar bikes at that time also when he raced pro for GT. He's a very aggressive rider.
Just my 2 cents.
|You should ride for a while before you broadcast your ignorance.||sprockets2|
Jul 9, 2002 9:48 PM
|re: Ahhhh! It is nice to see a Litespeed Vortex take another||mackgoo|
Jul 9, 2002 4:16 PM
|Ah, yes Litespeeds are nice bikes but, you know, I think it has alot to do with the engine.|
|Thank you, you selfish SOB||Justin Credible|
Jul 9, 2002 4:27 PM
|I had purposefully avoided knowing any results from this year's Tour until the WCP TDF 15 hour DVD to came out, but now you've ruined the surprise.|
|It's great to see a level of continuity...||tirider|
Jul 9, 2002 5:04 PM
|... any moron who thinks his bike is great just because someone else won a race on it probably wouldn't stop and think that posting a picture of the stage finish screws a lot of other people who were going to watch it on delay. Bravo idiot.|
|LOL, this place is dead without me||Lazywriter|
Jul 9, 2002 5:20 PM
|I know it, you know it, we all know it. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA|
|so not cool, baby . . . . . .Nm||Spirito|
Jul 9, 2002 6:19 PM
|Actually McEwen took the stage. Vortex was just along 4 the ride||flying|
Jul 9, 2002 5:06 PM
Jul 9, 2002 5:30 PM
|Ummmm. for all those that are so anal about people posting "spoilers" on this site, maybe you should just not come here for the duration of the tour. Even if all the "regulars" refrain from posting spoilers half the time it's some guy that surfs in all excited cause he just caught it on OLN and wants to share with the world.
This is the only board that gets any real traffic anyway. you want something seen, you post it here whatever the topic.
If it bothers you so damn much, just stay away for 23 days. Seems easier than expecting everyone that pops in to "know the rules". Not fair? Well, neither is dictating what can be posted here.
just tired of going thru this every grand tour. damn OLN!!!!!
|BAN EPIC FOR LIFE!||Justin Credible|
Jul 9, 2002 7:22 PM
|"...maybe you should just not come here for the duration of the tour....just stay away for 23 days."
I'm sure Gregg and Francis would disagree. Are you trying to discourage people from visiting roadbikereview?
|moron - nm||MJ|
Jul 10, 2002 8:05 AM
Jul 10, 2002 7:01 AM
|Putting a "spoiler" alert in a topic header is a pretty simple request. I've also found it to be a pretty standard courtesy on a number of boards I visit (not just cycling). If it needs to be publicized, a simple line like "Please refrain from posting spoilers" can be put at the top of the page or in a forum FAQ that outlines some of the expectations of behavior here (eg. please don't post spoilers, no spam/ads etc...)
You said it yourself, this is not something new ("tired of going through this every grand tour"). Lazy is not some newbie who just popped in.
There is no way I would "dictate" what can be posted here. I would, however, ask for some common courtesy and common sense.
|Of course next year when it is Domo/Lotto||texfan|
Jul 9, 2002 7:01 PM
|I am betting that they won't be riding Litespeed if the Cannibal has anything to say about it. And you know he will.|
|What are you talking about, Merckx has had a very long||Lazywriter|
Jul 9, 2002 7:10 PM
|relationship with Litespeed. THEY MAKE ALL OF HIS BRAND NAME TITANIUM FRAMES. LOL HAHAHAHA|
|Lotto-Domo won't be on Litespeed (link)||Niwot|
Jul 9, 2002 7:27 PM
|Here's a link to the article. It says Lotto-Domo will, in all likelihood, ride Merckx bikes next year. Litespeed's marketing director makes some VERY bitter comments about Eddy Merckx and the Lotto-Domo merger.
Here's an excerpt:
"The development in Belgium is very disappointing for us," commented Litespeed's marketing director Herbert Krabel to Cyclingnews. "We have established such a great relationship with the team and all the riders and the team itself has been successful on their Litespeeds. Thus any development that moves away from this successful model has to be seen as negative.
"To 'merge' the second best team in the World with the 14th best does not create the number one team. The Domo team really has never achieved what Lefevere had promised, despite a budget that was bigger than the proposed Lotto-Domo 2003 budget. Why would anyone trust him now? Lotto-Adecco has really achieved phenomenal success with a small budget and great management. The Domo team also comes with a lot of baggage with Virenque and Vandenbroucke, and Lotto always stood very firm against these issues.
"The Belgian press and public is also not very excited about this proposal, after all how would New Yorkers feel if the Yankees and the Mets 'merged?'"
When it came to Eddy Merckx, Krabel did not pull any punches. "Does Eddy Merckx really care about the sport of cycling as much as he claims? After all, with 25 pro cyclists (mostly from Belgium), four directeurs sportifs, four mechanics, four soigneurs and at least one team doctor (all from Belgium) possibly without a job, how can that be called a 'great development for Belgian cycling?'
"Or does Eddy really have other motives? Without this 'merger' there could be the very real possibility that neither Eddy Merckx bikes or Axel Merckx would be in next year's Tour."
"We have built lots of bikes for Eddy Merckx including the bike on which Lance won the Worlds in Norway, and have had a great relationship with him. However ever since we officially entered the European peloton we got the vibe and heard rumours that he did not appreciate us being in "his backyard" and that the Lotto Team was so successful on those Litespeeds."
Jul 9, 2002 7:48 PM
|Merckx has had such a long history with LS that this is pretty interesting. I am just stirring up trouble with the whole LS debate here, but it is amazing how well Lotto has been doing on these rigs.|
|Sorry to ruin this LoveFest, but it was an Ultimate||Citius|
Jul 10, 2002 2:46 AM
|I think it was some sort of custom Ultimate. It says so on the news section of the Litespeed website, and I heard it on the Eurosport radio feed. It was mentioned in the context that McEwen was "showing off" his new bike.
Whatever it was and however much he did like it, my guess is that he liked it more at the end of the day than at the beginning.
|yes, winning a 174.5-km stage by fractions of a second..||ET|
Jul 10, 2002 7:44 AM
|over dozens of other riders just a hair back more than justifies the $4500 price tag, especially for types on this board.|
|No one needs a $4500 bike especially on this board, but||Lazywriter|
Jul 10, 2002 3:33 PM
|then again, nobody needs a Rolex or a BMW or a 40 inch Plasma TV and so on. You NEED food, water and sleep. Your point is pointless. Buy whatever you want, it is a free country.|
|according to velonews it is a Ghisallo..||legs|
Jul 11, 2002 7:00 AM
|not a vortex..
nothing funnier than a pretender.. except a pretender on the wrong frame.
I hate to say this but nine out ten people i see at the club level on lightspeeds are not the most skilled riders..(i am putting this mildly).. the only group of riders i see with less skills that are over identified with a certain brand are a group i like to call the bearded calfees...
better living through posing...
Jul 11, 2002 7:36 AM
|better living through petty bias...|
Jul 12, 2002 9:24 AM
|better living by my own self-deprication not translating...|| |