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carbon stays make much difference?(24 posts)

carbon stays make much difference?mlbd
Jul 7, 2002 11:54 AM
I have a steel ride now and am wanting something lighter and stiffer. I've never ridden an aluminum bike with carbon stays. Do they really make aluminum any less harsh?

Thanks.
re: carbon stays make much difference?legs
Jul 7, 2002 2:02 PM
what makes aluminum 'harsh' of the shape of the tubes and the design of the frame... aluminum frames with small diameter tubes use to be referred to as too noodly...
if you want to ride an example of a stiff but not harsh aluminum frame i suggest you get a test ride on a merckx team sc...
the geom. and low center of gravity make this bike feel dialed in...(to me)
if you want to try a bike that is on the 'harsh' side (not a negative thing).. try the new cannondale caad7...
it may make you feel like a sprint god in a crit..
its the same material (aluminum) but a different feeling ride..
these generalizations about materials are kind of tiring...

it is never just the materials.. it is the design, the tubing, the geometry, and the rider..
there are too many incredible aluminum frames to list here..
principia
felt
fondriest
merckx
cannondale
colnago
de rosa
etc.....
as there are steel and titanium and carbon.. its very individual and subjective...

the carbon rear triangle functions differently on different bikes...ideally you would notice a stiff rear end and some dampening...to balance out the feel of a carbon fork.. different manufacturers succeed or fail at these goals...

I could give you my opinion but that is pointless to anyone but me.. you need to go find out for yourself..

test rides....

for instance i know there are people here that love their CT-1's (titanium with a carbon rear triangle).. and i hate that bike... i can't explain.. but then again i dont like mayo on my sandwiches...its a great bike that i dont like...
so I cant tell you if you think aluminum will feel harsh...
but i can tell you that if you limited yourself to aluminum i'll bet you could find a frame that you like....

broad sweeping generalizations are usually a sign of misinformation.. some old bearded guy on a calfee spent five minutes telling me that my titanium bike has high speed wobble because he heard that titanium wobbles from a friend... he had never ridden a titanium frame...
i just came from a 70 mile ride with thousands of feet of climbs and fast descents...(no wobble).. and this guy is telling me for fact that my frame wobbles...(?)
and so i said.. yeah and carbon gets soft and alum fails without warning... and i laughed at him and rode off... dont believe any hype.....

sorry for rambling....
Legs nailed it (nm)Kerry
Jul 7, 2002 4:57 PM
I'm gonna have to disagree somewhatET
Jul 7, 2002 8:13 PM
I keep seeing this line put forth by respected members of our forum, but sometimes dissent for healthy debate is a good thing.

I'm not denying that aluminum can be made to feel like a noodle, but I see no reason why it follows that for the same level of stiffness that aluminum will be as comfortable as other materials. After all, they're different materials. On the contrary, I think it's more than just uninformed misinformed anecdotes: for the same level of performance, aluminum is in general likely to be harsher, something even more noticeable over rougher road conditions and as the mileage increases.
I'm gonna have to disagree somewhatlegs
Jul 7, 2002 8:49 PM
lets agree to disagree...
most people who say they don't haven't even ridden one yet. -nmTig
Jul 7, 2002 2:49 PM
re: carbon stays make much difference?flying
Jul 7, 2002 2:59 PM
I can let you know what I find in about 2 weeks.
I just bought this Guerciotti with Columbus carve rear & airplane alum frame.
I am also coming off steel.....Colnago MXL.
re: Nice looking frame....cyclejim
Jul 7, 2002 3:07 PM
Where did you pick that up at? Never heard of them but the bike looks very sweet.
re: Nice looking frame....flying
Jul 7, 2002 3:31 PM
Thanks
I got a really great deal on it from
http://www.eurocycleimports.com/

Actually Guerciotti has been around since 1964.
Great Italian Frames.
It is just if you dont sponsor a big team nobody hears your name. Yet this is a great frame of Columbus Airplane with integrated 1 1/8' full carbon fork also columbus & the carbon stays from columbus. At a really great price. I paid $700

http://www.guerciotti.it/

The same guy has a complete steel & carbon bike brand new for 1k on ebay now. EOM16.5 steel no less!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1841151224

Contact the guy selling it if you want a frame at a great price. His name is David Anderson seems he can get Basso too.

Cya,
Mike
re: good dealcyclejim
Jul 7, 2002 8:22 PM
I checked out the web site. Looks like you got a great deal, the G45 is listed at $1299! My buddy is still searching for his frame, do you know if they have more at the price you paid?

thanks
re: good dealflying
Jul 7, 2002 10:33 PM
I dont know you will have to write him.
But I know he has this on ebay now.......
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1841151224

I think it is a killer deal although Im not a shimano fan.
Dedacciai EOM 16.5 tubes with those other components plus a deda fork & carbon stays for 1K
I am tempted to buy it myself just because ;-)
re: good dealcyclejim
Jul 7, 2002 8:57 PM
I checked out the web site. Looks like you got a great deal, the G45 is listed at $1299! My buddy is still searching for his frame, do you know if they have more at the price you paid?

thanks
re: Nice looking frame....cyclejim
Jul 7, 2002 8:16 PM
Where did you pick that up at? Never heard of them but the bike looks very sweet.
Definitely post your impressions!!mlbd
Jul 8, 2002 8:48 AM
I (and perhaps others) would like to hear your impressions. Bicycling did review of carbon stays not too long ago and overall concluded they were a positive thing.

also, thanks for the posting that website. i'm in the market and i like there selections.
re: carbon stays make much difference?Akirasho
Jul 7, 2002 3:27 PM
... I suspect that the use of carbon stays runs along the lines of tube manipulations... and their properties depend on the design and execution.

I recently picked up an Airborne Manhattan Project and had a chance to speak with the folks at Airborne about the use of CF stays on this frame. They report that their intent was to stiffen the rear triangle, and my initial rides support this idea (I've got one other Ti bike that seems a bit more compliant in the rear (insert on joke here) than the MP). I had no plans to purchase this type of hybrid... the deal simply came together.

As far as durability is concerned, the jury is still out... Initial runs of hybrid CF with aluminium proved less than desirable... but much has changed since then (along with stays, we're seeing a resurrgence of lugged Ti/CF frames). True, reports are that the CF stays are replaceable, but if they're proprietary... replacements might not be available when/if yours give out. It'll be up to the warranty policies of the manufacturer. But, I still suspect that there have been advances in materials and bonding techniques... and like virtually any other frame material... there are those occasional crunchs that even the best can't survive.

Ture too, a test ride on the specific frame may be the only real way to judge...



We abide.

Remain In Light.
cranks (pardon the thread drift)AllUpHill
Jul 7, 2002 4:59 PM
Akirasho, tell me how you like the slick-looking cranks there. The three reviews for them on this site are all pretty positive (I assume none of them are your review). Feel noticeably different under foot compared to alu cranks? Have you weighed your pair by any chance, to see if they save anything over "standard" cranks?

I wish they were produced with this subtle red label as on the proto models.
... they suckAkirasho
Jul 7, 2002 5:17 PM
... on the "bang for your bucks" meter... but that doesn't stop me from liking them.

I've not seen, nor have I written a review on this product but aside from the abovementioned suckiness... my experiences have been positive.

I have not noticed any appreciable difference 'tween these and Ultegra or Dura Ace arms, and while I didn't weigh them, they are proported to be slightly less chubby than Dura Ace... and my hand concurs... I've also got a pair of ZIPP cranks, and the FSA's were far easier to install on a splined BB. I had Dura Ace rings and installed them as an additional indulgence. The FSA rings have not been used... yet. The rings install with an included TORX wrench...

From my POV, they are an indulgence... but that's part of the fun of cycling! I was in a shop to pick up tubes and tires... and these suddenly found their way into my cart (I figured I'd find a frame for them... and about two weeks later... viola, er, voila).

The only downside would be in the "Octalink" decals... they were added as an afterthought on mine... and as such, are not under clearcoat. On the plus side, you can snatch 'em off if they offend (perhaps they now clearcoat 'em).

Lastly, there's something "wholesome" about clearcoated carbon fiber weave donchatink???
re: carbon stays make much difference?Carbon fiber fanatik
Jul 7, 2002 5:05 PM
Carbon fiber is awesome period. Of course that's just my humble opinion. Sorry the pic isnt the best. I should have bought krysium elites and spent the other 400 on a decent camera, but you get the idea...
re: carbon stays make much difference?Roadfrog
Jul 7, 2002 8:41 PM
You don't like the HED's?
re: carbon stays make much difference?Carbon fiber fanatik
Jul 8, 2002 1:56 AM
The comment about the krysiums was sarcastic in nature. I love the hed's. They are by far the wisest component purchase I ever made.
re: carbon stays make much difference?Roadfrog
Jul 8, 2002 9:25 AM
Scared me for a bit!
re: carbon stays make much difference?pogmothoin1
Jul 8, 2002 6:09 PM
I recently had lower back surgery and looking to get back into riding. I do not have a lot of disk left between the L3, L4 and L5 -- generally a weak back; however, I love to ride. What type of road bike is the smoothest ride? -- Steel, Carbon, Titanium, etc? Any suggestion on type of bike?
re: carbon stays make much difference?legs
Jul 8, 2002 8:35 PM
there are a lot of ways to look at this..
starting with your pre-surgery ability/conditioning/ and flexiblity.. and following through your rehab and realistic fitness goals..
you ever hear the joke.. doc can i play violin after the surgery (the punch line regarding that the patient didnt know how to play before the surgery)?
how much can your back take?
can other muscle groups help you compensate?
have you lost flexiblity?
how serious are you about rehab (pilates/situps, etc...)

were you a bike rider before the surgery and did that bike fit you well?

the answer could be a s simple as an adjustable stem and as difficult as finding that you can only ride a recumbant or nothing at all...
possible solutions:
raise stem in relation to seat.
tope tube length
slacken seat tube angle
suspension seat post
non-conventional bikes ala softride
larger tires

i guess the answer is in the degree if your injury?

a lot of people like beam bikes like the soft ride..
if you are asking about a specific bike model for your injury.. i think that you need consider more factors than can be covered here...
a lot of the custom frame makers often make bikes with these considerations in mind.. i think there is a bike on the seven website made for a dwarf...
avoid the cliches about what materials are smooth..
steel can be
titanium can be
carbon can be as well as
aluminum (really)

good luck...avoid simple answers to complex problems.. and know that a lot these guys are a phone call away..
tom kellog or craig calfee or parlee and rob at seven.. they are real people and better suited to answer your inquiry than anyone here...
re: alum vs. ti vs. carbonstik__boy
Jul 10, 2002 5:28 AM
commenting on legs post... some facts about alum, ti, and carbon: carbon fiber can in a word "get soft" as it is merely interwoven carbon in a epoxy resin. pretty easy stuff to work with actually, makes you wonder why its so expensive. anyway; when a manufacturer gets a bad mold, or layout, or contamination in the epoxy, bad temps, bad vacuum, anything.... you can get whats called delamination, the different layers of carbon coming apart from one another. the epoxy fails. you WILL get a failure here. but carbon is awesome stuff. aluminum and ti can also "fail"... ANY scratch, or nick in either metal could lead to a stress riser, intergranular corrosion, and eventually, in extreme cases, a failure. i'll still ride though, frame failure be damned!!!!