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current frame makers have no class .........(20 posts)

current frame makers have no class .........Spirito
Jun 17, 2002 12:20 AM
remember when you bought a frame and it came boxed with a jersey, cap, stem, seat post, spare set of decals, bottle and outer chainring.

you would open it and wait a month before unpacking it to build such was its beauty and professionalism. what do get today - a 1 800 #, a brochure and a bumper stickersticker if your lucky. and then they send you an email with a fill in the blank name that has been sent a thousand times before thanking you for choosing their product just to make you feel special. no class at all... where is the progress in that?

cheapskates and pennypinchers i call them.....
and they offer 37 different colors...and they all suck....Spirito
Jun 17, 2002 12:35 AM
whereas way back when they offered you 3 or 4 options if that ....and they all looked hot !!

where did them black and all chrome Gios' go. they look so hot and i never seen one....major drool and total lust factor.

there isnt a bad apple as they all look perfect and smart on their own. have a look at a bianchi, colnago, pinarallo, deRosa etc etc etc catalogue now....if they offer any options now its a case of cross off the ugly ones and choose the remaining one - what a shame, what a waste. where is the passion and beauty?

and as for custom color palate's ....dont make me laugh. they still take 3 months to get to you and when you see them you ask yourself why?

boycott blandness and mediocrity - stop spending large coin for something that really isnt classic and will look stupid in 3 years from now.

is there something im missing or dont understand about today's high end frames? what are you paying for - artistry, quality and design where is it?

just say no ;-)

have a nice week.
and they offer 37 different colors...and they all suck....I Love Shimano
Jun 17, 2002 12:47 AM
I don't remember anything.hayaku
Jun 17, 2002 3:30 AM
I have only been cycling for just over a year.

But! In Feburary of this year I had a chance to buy a Gios Ceramical frame. (Do you know this one) Only a couple of years old and cheap. My wonderful bike shop said thad I could take it with no deposit. "Just pay when you can"

The unfortunate thing is that in cycling, often you learn things a little too late... I passed on the frame because... well I don't really know why now, but it's gone. I know what a mistake I made, youthful ingnorance. Now I sit in front of my computer thinking about it, heart broken, twisted up inside with regret. I bitter old man.

Well half a man without the frame;p

A team mate is riding it atleast. I'm more than a little jelous, but good for him!
re: current frame makers have no class .........tarwheel
Jun 17, 2002 4:17 AM
You can still buy all the Gios paraphenalia from, but they don't give it away when you buy a frame. I even had to buy my Gios water bottles.

I understand your point, though, and it's not about Gios. The kit you show here looks like good marketing, which you don't see much of anymore. Now they just try to convince everyone they need new stuff that isn't needed or just plain sucks -- like integrated headsets, threadless stems, carbon stays ... don't get me started.

Hey, you can still get free Toosie Rolls if you order some shorts or a jersey from Voler (
let me tell ya about excel....Spirito
Jun 17, 2002 9:31 AM
that they offer you the same price on their steel fork ($150) whether you buy a frame or not i found so boring i decided not to order a frame and fork.

is it just me but when you are buying a frame and there is only one steel fork you would use with it should it be your choice you would think they would say "yeah, its $10 off if you buy both" at least. or throw in a roll of bar tape or a bottle.

they are the sole importer's of Gios and they're acting like it as well. i have never had bad to say of them but $800 is nothing to sneeze at for me and this fixed attitude made me feel that they didn't care for my small coin. no gios for spirito.

in their defense ...tarwheel
Jun 17, 2002 12:17 PM
Excel previously sold the Compact Pro for $700 including the steel fork. Since many buyers apparently wanted carbon forks, they started selling the frame for $550 without the fork. So, look at it this way, you can buy the frame for $150 less than previously -- without a fork. If you want a steel fork, the total price is the same as always ($700). If you want a carbon fork, then Excel or the buyer isn't stuck with an extra steel fork they don't need or want, and you can choose to buy a Gios carbon fork or another brand. I don't see a problem with that. For comparison, the Tommasini Sintesi sold by coloradocyclist only comes with the steel fork. If you want a carbon fork, you have to pay extra for that but there is no discount or deduction for the steel fork that comes with the frame. Finally, you can't buy many lugged steel frames of the quality of the Gios for Excel's price.
Gee, I dunno.djg
Jun 18, 2002 2:13 PM
Don't buy the frame if you don't want it. Don't buy the frame if you cannot afford it. But don't buy the frame because there's no free bar tape when you spring for a fork as well? Or no 10 dollar discount? That's where you loose me. Is it worth what they're charging or not? Of course, you're the consumer and you can take your money where you want for whatever reason you want, but it seems to me that excel is offering a nice frameset at what, in today's market, is a pretty good price.

Are they acting like "they are the sole importer's [sic] of Gios"? Well, I guess they are the sole importer of Gios and they act however they act. But their markup on Gios can hardly be compared to, say, that of certain other importers of Italian frames. I haven't done all that much business with excel, but I've found their attitude--at least their apparent attitude--to be pretty good when I've done so.
maybe just Gios?DougSloan
Jun 17, 2002 5:23 AM
When I bought my Peugeot PX10 and Bianchi Rekord 748 in 1976 and 1980, I don't recall getting anything extra, except touch up paint with the Bianchi (celeste, of course).

maybe just Gios?DaveL
Jun 17, 2002 11:17 AM
I bought a px10 in about 1973 for about $300+; It had tubular tires and wire-tied spokes on the front wheel. That was it - no extras. I still do not expect any. The bike was the reward. Terrific bike, gone but not forgotten. It's still the measure when I ride something else. I think I'm trying to recapture how it felt to ride it way back when. My euphoric/sentimental memory has probably glossed over any faults the bike may have had. Ain't the brain great?
Jun 17, 2002 6:11 AM
What a great one could come close today!
I've only been riding sincegrandemamou
Jun 17, 2002 6:53 AM
1984 and never remember getting anything other than frame and fork. That is a cool package though.

Last year I ordered a Bianchi EV2 and all I got was a frame and fork. A couple of weeks later I bought a set of bottles and cages from Bianchi usa, retail about 40 bucks. I got a set of key chains, stickers and a poster. I couldn't figure out the economics of that one.
it's better than having no profits!mr_spin
Jun 17, 2002 7:02 AM
Can you imagine what they would have to charge to give away all that stuff? And how did they know what size jersey, stem, etc.?

It's also possible that all frames currently DO come with that stuff, but it's "intercepted" by the middleman. I rented a video a few years ago that indicated that it came with a coupon for a free pizza. Naturally, the coupon wasn't there. They had dozens of copies of this video. Who got all the pizza, I asked the guy behind the counter. I have no idea, he said, hinting at the real answer with a huge smile on his face.
think of it this way....Spirito
Jun 17, 2002 9:50 AM
that they already sell their frames for reasonable money and that at least 20-30% of that price goes towards advertising and sponsorship to attract further sales makes you think what for.

if that was given, what i would think naturally, directly to the customer in the form of jersey, bottle , stem, seat-post , cap etc etc i am sure they would have people clammering for their product. that big frame manufacturers lament how buyers have lost loyalty and allegiance to a frame name - duh! they are solely responsible and have shot themsleves in the foot. $600 of your $2000 frame was spent on trying to woo other buyers - who's loyal to that.

it would cost them fxxx-all to order the extra parts in bulk as component manufacturers also profit by having more of their goods made available and ridden. i would garantee that those buyers would buy again and would think purely about the maker's "direct marketing" to the people who actually buy their stuff.

whereas now its like buying a its like buying a new computer without any software offered - no dice. sure the computer costs a bit more but its cheaper for the buyer as the manufacturer can buy in bulk under licence.

could you imagine if mavic sold their open pro's for $25. we'd all ride them...but as they feel its important to spend millions in advertising and sponsorship they charge us $60 and guess what happens ... we start questioning them and their loyalties. i couldn't care who rides them and if they used some volkswagen late's sixties style advertsing and just showed a product and said this is a good rim at a fair price, we offer a gaurantee their profits would be the same and the loyalty from customers to them would increase.

but maybe im missing something....

Not really........Len J
Jun 17, 2002 10:02 AM
in concept you may be right but in practice it's a little more complicated.

To use your Mavic example, Mavic believes, and their financials seem to back them up, that they can make more money selling fewer units at higher prices and advertising the way they do, then selling more units at a lower per unit price with no advertising. The problem with low unit pricing is that anyone can match it & you haven't sold any more units, so all you give up is price (which translates into profit), it becomes a zero sum game. The only way to win is differentiation which creates (if done properly) more demand at higher prices). You can differentiate on either capability or perception or both. Mavic trys to do it on both.

The other fallacy is that everyone buys solely on price, if that were true, we would all be riding on cheap steel bikes with med end components & there wouldn't be a RBR.

well, it seems price is the only thing that matters....rufus
Jun 17, 2002 10:15 AM
over at the mtb boards. so many posts about how their lbs is ripping them off cause they can buy something cheaper at supergo.
re: current frame makers have no class .........Pygme
Jun 17, 2002 7:22 AM
The Cinelli Starlight I just ordered didnt even come with a freaking cable guide!
Amen but...mmquest
Jun 17, 2002 9:37 AM
I have to agree with mr_spin that it is all about economics. Frame builders could send frames with all of those accessories, but I think that most people would buy frames that came without the accessories and were therefore cheaper. Again, overall I agree, but frame makers are in business and, as such, they sell what people will buy.
read my above post....NmSpirito
Jun 17, 2002 9:51 AM
Jun 18, 2002 2:58 PM
All the "classy" ones went out of business or got with the program.

I trust that you bought one of the first Dura Ace 25th anniversary kits? Afterall, price doesn't matter to you does it?

Is there something you can't complain about?