Jun 12, 2002 6:16 AM
|do they really take the sting out of aluminum frames?|
|re: carbon seatstays||sievers11|
Jun 12, 2002 6:28 AM
|Yep, but I wouldn't say they take the sting out. I haven't experieced AL sting. It is more of a smoothing effect that balances out a bike that has a carbon fork. The feel was similar to the first time I road a bike with a good carbon fork. From my experience the carbon seat stays on AL work very nicely in absorbing vibration effectively numbing the ride. It is kind of like taking a full suspension MTBike and balancing out the travel.
If you are a racer I see advantages here because you don't sacrafice power from the still AL chain stays.
I think that Ti does a better job smoothing out a ride in a touring frame or century bike.
|Carbon seatstays, going the way of the Dodo?||JS|
Jun 12, 2002 7:42 AM
|I've think this "advancement" is on it's way out. Heavier and more expensive, yep that's better.|
|Carbon seatstays, going the way of the Dodo?||sievers11|
Jun 12, 2002 7:53 AM
|I dissagree that is on the way out, I would say it is a fad right now. If it can be kept light and can prove itself in europe then it could have staying power, because I think the technology and theory is sound.
You might be right that it could go, "the way of the Dodo", but has not yet and it is too early to tell difinitively.
There are questions about the weight, can it be brought down? Or what is the life expectancey? I guess in the race world the life of the frame doesn't matter, but to have staying power in the LBS market it does.
|Ever heard of a Prince? Carbon seatstay!||bikerjim|
Jun 12, 2002 8:27 AM
|Carbon seatstays are NOT heavier, most bike makers claim that the carbon REDUCES weight. In addition to seatstays, Columbus now offers a seat/chainstay make-up called a monobox for bike makers to assemble bikes with. I have a Orbea XCLR8R/Carbon and it is a sweet ride. I'd highly recommend it.|
Jun 12, 2002 10:53 AM
|The price to the consumer certainly is higher but, I'm wondering if there might be some cost savings to the manufacturer.
Half or all of the rear triangle comes from the factory pre-assembled and just needs to be epoxied onto the front traingle.
Just thinking outloud...
|I think you're right||pmf1|
Jun 12, 2002 12:03 PM
|Think of how much welding (labor) time you save by sticking a carbon triangle or stay on a frame. These things are all probably made in China fairly cheaply. I'd bet anything it reduces the cost of production.|
|re: carbon seatstays||Tig|
Jun 12, 2002 8:11 AM
|People who claim that CF seat stays are just a fad or don't make a difference usually have never even ridden a bike with them, so their opinions are groundless. Granted, tire size/pressure/design, wheels, and saddle can make any bike's ride more or less comfortable in regards to road vibrations.
My observations after riding a Merckx Fuga for the last few months are that CF seat stays dampen the peaks off of road vibration felt in the seat. This isn't just wishful thinking to justify the bike's purchase. Riding on the same roads year after year, you know how certain rough sections feel. Doing so on many different bikes tells an accurate story about frames, forks, and components.
Any material can be made to provide similar comfort at the seat stays, but usually at the cost of losing rear triangle stiffness. The Fuga launches out of corners like few bikes I've ridden. Aluminum stays are lighter than CF. Steel is heavier, etc. CF can be designed to produce exact performance properties easier than other materials. It is also easy to build around since a CF wishbone stay is prefab. Like CF forks, there are many different designs out there. It is still too early to know which ones are useful and whick are junk.
|what I don't understand||DougSloan|
Jun 12, 2002 8:16 AM
|If carbon stays are good, why not the whole frame?
BTW, I've been riding my C-40 and EV2 back to back the last few months, and I've got to say I can't tell a whole lot of difference in the comfort department. Less buzz on the C40, but not enough less that I'd guess that carbon stays alone on the EV2 would change much.
|what I don't understand||bob_vanderhaus|
Jun 12, 2002 8:55 AM
|I would agree Doug, I think the steel, AL, Carbon comfort debate is well over done. I have ridden my AL TCR on multiple 4-7 hour rides this season, and have never felt comfort an issue. Sure, my steel ride takes some of the buzz off the road. But at the end of the day, I think most AL bikes with a carbon fork are comfy enough to go all day without any problems. I think that a lot of people who don't ride very much, blame their sore hands and ass on the frame material, when in fact they have not logged enough mile for their body to adapt.|
|You must have perfect roads to ride on. I have steel, carbon,||Paul|
Jun 12, 2002 9:25 AM
|and AL. AL is by far the harshest ride, like going from a pickup truck to a Lexus when comparing to an all carbon or steel bike. After awhile, you become complacent to AL, and don't really notice it until you change. One reason they started putting carbon forks/stays on AL is to soften the ride. What I don't get, is why they put carbon stays on a ti bike. Has to be just for change.|
|Far from perfect roads.||bob_vanderhaus|
Jun 12, 2002 9:51 AM
|I think my point was, that although frames do ride differently, I think too many people are hung up on comfort. I can say though that I did have an aluminum bike with a steel fork about 5 years ago that was too, too, rigid and not much fun to ride. But today most AL frames with Carbon forks are much more forgiving than the AL bikes of past. This being said, I agree it is nice to go from my AL and ride my steel bike esp. on rough roads, but the weight and performance on the AL more than make up for the slightly harsher ride. Of course, comfort may be more important factor for other riders, but for me... I have never had the harsh ride effect me in a detrimental way. I just know a lot of people who think they need to buy a ti or carbon frame to get a comfortable bike. A lot of these people are the ones who bought big gel seats because their seat was "uncomfortable," and we know that your ass can get used to just about anything.|
|I agree in general, I've had 3 C-dales, and still like the||Paul|
Jun 12, 2002 11:03 AM
|stiffness, but since I got my Look, the long distance rides over various rode surfaces are more enjoyable, and less tiring. |
I've really been beat-up on AL, carbon fork and all. In general, I'll never buy an AL again unless I trip over a Prince.
|Molds||Me Dot Org|
Jun 12, 2002 11:20 AM
|Carbon fiber molds are pretty expensive from what I hear. You can get a custom bike built with custom geometry and carbon fiber stays. No need to build a custom mold.
I know Calfee will make a custom carbon bike using carbon lugs, but the cost is a lot more than a light steel bike with carbon stays. (Not that I wouldn't mind having a custom Calfee!)
It's a subjective thing, but I like a mix of carbon and steel. Too much carbon feels dead. A little more makes bad roads bearable, and centuries comfortable. Could I live without carbon rear stays? Yes. But after 5k miles (about 9 months) I'm happy with the mix.
Jun 12, 2002 10:33 AM
|Vibration systems are comprised of a spring (frame), a weight (rider + frame), a damper and a force input (road irregularity). On the common double diamond bicycle frame, the rear end is VERY stiff in the vertical direction thus the spring rate is very high. People like to talk about damping when it comes to carbon but without movement (amplitude of the wave), there is nothing to damp.
The bottom line is that since the rear end of the frame only flexes VERY SLIGHTLY in the vertical direction, the damping properties of carbon have only a small effect.
Sure, some sensitive people can feel a difference. But I wouldn't expect any significant difference in comfort.
Regarding weight, the common Columbus Carve and Dedicciai rear carbon stays ARE heavier than a lightweight thinwall rear stay arrangement. Their some newer models of rear stays that are trying to lighten things up some but as of right now, they are not in common useage in the industry.