|Fighting in sports... let alone cycling.||PODIUMBOUNDdotCA|
Jun 11, 2002 10:13 AM
|So anyway I'm commenting on this video:
Fighting is bad enough in hockey... cycling doesn't need it. Especially in the pro's. People look up to professional athletes especially kids so its stupid. At least if we staged a ton of fights we could get the WWF crowd! O O O have roller derby but on track bikes! That'd be fricking awesome! K maybe not but at least we'd get people more interested in our sport.
My 2 cents,
Jun 11, 2002 10:21 AM
|Does fighting belong, per se? I don't know. But fighting results from grown men caring very much about what they're doing. And that belongs. I want pros to care enough about winning a race that they go to blows when they feel it's necessary. I think the passion that sometimes has a brawl as the result has every place in sport, and to not allow it would be a loss for the fans.|
Jun 11, 2002 10:44 AM
|Passion drives men and women to extremes, but fighting results more from frustration. People (and nations) strike out when they see no other way to accomplish their goal. By fighting, I mean coming to blows, not bumping shoulders and pushing off during a sprint or in the paint. Those are better termed "fouls" and can be seen as part of the sport. Fighting, throwing water bottles, running people into the barriers, etc. has little to do with passion.|
Jun 11, 2002 11:13 AM
|physical confrontation is the result of an inability to cope, coupled with the inability to maintain self control; It has nothing to do with passion.
The majority of exceptional athletes throughout the century have never resorted to assault, despite their passion for the sport.
Fighting doesnt belong in sports, with the exception of boxing and the acceptation of hockey.
|Exception of hockey||PODIUMBOUNDdotCA|
Jun 11, 2002 1:13 PM
|I disagree. No sport should have fighting. The only reason its allowed in hockey is because the fans to some degree like it. Does this mean WWF is a sport? They need athletic ability, a lot of training and precision. Along with a lot of precision.
My 2 cents,
|Exception of hockey||SLB|
Jun 11, 2002 2:34 PM
|I completely disagree about hockey. Fighting most definitely belongs in hockey. Attempts to clean it up by bettman and the stupid "instigator" penalty have only led to more thuggery.
What the casual hockey viewers do not understand is that hockey, like baseball, has a set of "unwritten" rules. If you break those rules, you will pay. It's the players policing themselves. You do not run star players or take cheap shots without expecting retribution.
no one ever took a run at wayne gretzky because a) respect b) fear that marty mcsorley would make sure it didn't happen again.
Another misconception is that everyone fights, when in fact there are only a few enforcers on each team. Enforcers fighting non-fighters is another violation of the unwritten rules. (unless the non-fighter broke the code)
Occasionally there is true bad blood in fights. But most fights are mutually agreed upon to fire up a lifeless team(s). Or if the game is a blowout, for a little respect.
Now with this stupid instigator penalty, goons like Tie Domi are free to take shots because they know no one will come after them for fear of a penalty. but i digress, it's just one of my pet peeves to see the nhl is such a sad state.
|Exception of hockey||Me Dot Org|
Jun 12, 2002 8:05 AM
|"hockey, like baseball, has a set of "unwritten" rules."
Major League Baseball used to have an "unwritten" rule that no blacks could play. Jackie Robinson dared to violate that rule and was intentionally spiked, thrown at, and called every name in the book. And yet somehow baseball moved past that rule.
If you look at Olympic Hockey, there is nowhere near the amount of fighting. "Unwritten Rules" are like "Jailhouse Justice", they exist because those in charge don't do anything about it.
Jun 11, 2002 11:13 AM
|I don't think people should be going to blows when they don't accomplish their goals- but when somebody pulls a dirty shenanigan that prevents you from reaching your goals, the fists come out.
I think it's a legitimate response to being ridden into the barriers, physically held back, or otherwise illegally impeded from a victory that you really care about winning.
|Good, maybe somebody will beat some sense...||Wayne|
Jun 11, 2002 11:43 AM
|into you. The only time violence is justified is when it is in self-defense. Not that it necessarily matters as to whether it's right or wrong to assault someone because they've done something you strongly disapprove of but that's also pretty much what the law in most states. You have other recourses than assaulting someone to address someone doing some stupid stuff in a race.|
|I think he's saying that it's understandable||weiwentg|
Jun 11, 2002 11:54 AM
|not that it's acceptable.|
|I think he's saying that it's understandable||Wayne|
Jun 11, 2002 12:04 PM
|it's neither. Getting angry is understandable, but as the other poster pointed out, striking out at someone is reflective of an inability to deal/cope with that anger. Think about the possible outcomes of striking someone, are any of them positive? Do you think the guy you hit is really going to think next time I'm in a race I better not touch this guy he might pop me! If anything it would probably make the guy MORE likely to do something to you. Not that I want to put words in his mouth but calling something a "legitimate" response makes me think acceptable.|
|it is understandable||weiwentg|
Jun 11, 2002 4:25 PM
|there could be several factors.
for one, the attacker could have been raised in a culture of honor. this was the reason Cipo struck that Spanish guy who insulted him (on cyclingnews somewhere, forgot details) - the Spanish rider used a phrase that transliterated to 'son of a whore'. he did not mean it in that sense, but Cipo's sense of honor was attacked. there is also a culture of honor in the American South.
next, either or both of them could have had an abusive childhood. children learn from modeling, and if their parents are abusive and aggressive, chances are the child will be the same. s/he can turn out differently, fortunately. but here I describe generalities.
next, for various biological or social reasons, the person could have an impulse control disorder. there's intermittent explosive disorder, which involves people flying off the handle randomly, usually at trivial insults. and there's borderline personality disorder, where people behave very impulsively. this can involve them hitting others.
people can be conditioned by the prevalence of violence in the media and in their environment to think that violence is normative: ie, it is not necessarily acceptable, but it is something that is done.
and lastly, those two guys already had an adrenalin rush from riding. their attacking each other could have been facilitated by that.
different cultures, and different people within each culture, deal with anger differently. I'm not saying that their way is necessarily right, but perhaps those two racers did deal with their anger in a way that was not inappropriate for their culture. you are right to say that physical violence is not legitimate in the greater American culture. but it could have been acceptable in their culture, and even in American subcultures such as hockey and boxing.
|weiwentg, you surprise me...||spankdoggie|
Jun 11, 2002 11:25 PM
|I am new here, ... I disagree with a couple of your points, but all in all your post on the different cultures, although not educational for me personally, was about right on the money, generally speaking. I think your post helped some people realize the parameters...
Maybe this is a friendly place.
|Maybe you didn't read my post,||TJeanloz|
Jun 11, 2002 12:07 PM
|But I'll asume you did, because you responded to it. My point being that for grown men to go to blows over something, it needs to be something they feel pretty strongly about. And I want professional bike racers to care enough about what they're doing that there are some extreme cases. This is sport. Tempers flare. People are already physically worn down.
I'm not saying it's right, but I do like it that they care enough to take it to that extreme. Do I think fighting is something that should be taken lightly? No.
I'd be absolutely opposed to a fight following a Cat 3 criterium- but in the Tour de France, where your career is on the line? What would you do if somebody pushed you off a cliff? Held your jersey on a climb? Etc. Etc. And the judges didn't see it- so you have no way to do anything through the official channel. I wouldn't want to watch a race where the riders said: "You held my jersey, and prevented me from getting into the lead group, but it doesn't really matter, we're all friends." That's not the way things go, generally.
|Some people just need their ass kicked.||JS|
Jun 11, 2002 2:11 PM
|Fisticuffs is underrated as a form of retribution. Example: some rich guy hits your car but denies it, there are no witnesses, he's got better lawyers so you'll never win in court, sounds like time to beat his ass. It takes money and power out of the equation, now you just gotta get away with out him finding out who you are.|
Jun 11, 2002 4:36 PM
|I must say the area I ride in now has been quite enjoyable as far as motorists go. However, this has not been true everywhere I lived and cycled and I'll admit to inviting more than one semi-evolved motorist to step out of their truck or car. Unfortunately, I was never taken up on that offer but if I'd had the opportunity to loosen one of those fools' jaws it would have made my day and made the other guy a better person too.
At least a better person around cyclists which is all that really matters.
|Look at the peleton riding away...||hayaku|
Jun 11, 2002 11:25 PM
|Do you think those cyclists give a S!#T about winning the race? If they did, they'd save it until afterwards. Even in Boxing, does "fighting" ever put you in a better position to win the event? I can't see how it does, playing the game (eg.Boxing, not brawling) is what will help you win.
This world is a diplomatic one, has Al Qaeda done anything to improve their situation by using violence?
Fighting is an indicator of passion but not an accurate one.
|You are absolutely correct||Lowend|
Jun 11, 2002 12:04 PM
|Fighting does not belong in any sport.|
|no problem with fighting in sports.||aet|
Jun 11, 2002 1:26 PM
|especially contact sports. it is true that people resort to it when they feel there is no other way to cope but sometimes there is no other way to cope. for example, in hoops, their is no better way to make a referee call the game straight then to start a fight.|
|This is definitely not the sweet science||grandemamou|
Jun 11, 2002 1:51 PM
|This video proves one thing. Never fight in cycling shoes!!! Maybe I am not taking this seriously enough but watching these guys shuffle around to try and get leverage is pretty funny.|
|re: You call that "Fighting"...||jrm|
Jun 11, 2002 2:43 PM
|Best one i saw was 2 DH racers @ Am Cup about 2 years a go.|
|re: You call that "Fighting"...||spankdoggie|
Jun 11, 2002 11:06 PM
|They look like two girls...
Thanks podiumbound for the entertainment.