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Are great riders born or made?(33 posts)

Are great riders born or made?PODIUMBOUNDdotCA
Jun 4, 2002 7:04 AM
This is a truely great question in my opinion. TJeanloz started it in a post further down saying great sprinters are made out of great cyclists. So I would like to continue this.

I would like to start off by showing a great article on a site peleton found. Here it is:
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0219.htm
It discusses how a runner (named Nick... coincidence) began to blame his parents for not having the genetics to go any faster once he began to plateau.

In my humble opinion I feel good riders are born, yes. You either have the genetics or you don't to be a good rider of whatever type from sprinter, to climber, to time trialer, etc. However, to become great you have to take these genetics and use them to make yourself great.

A prime example if this is a very good debate in who is the more talented rider. Lance Armstrong or Jan Ullrich? Many people agree Jan has the edge on Lance. However, if so why has he finished 2nd to Lance 3 years in a row? I feel it is because he gets away with doing minimal ammounts of training just due to the fact he is predominantly made up of slow twitch muscle fibers which at the age of 20-something (low 20's) he won the Tour. However, then he got lazy, bulks up in the winter and gets tormented for it. As for Lance he has always been a good cyclist winning World's in the early 1990's however in my opinion he does have a lot of fast twitch muscle fibers. Hence the reason he pedals at such a high cadence. Not to the point that he's a sprinter but enough that he succeeded at a lot of single day events early in his career where an all out sprint is not good enough to win. However, the cancer made his body waste away and he was turned into a great climber after he found his niche in pedalling at high cadences.

Then I would like to finish this off as saying. Do I believe I am genetically gifted? Yes. I made it to junior worlds in just over a year of training after being out of any sport for close to 3 months. Probably no other rider there can claim that. However, if I'm genetically gifted... I have to work very very hard to unlock it. I have to make myself a great rider.

Cheers,
Nick Corcoran
PodiumBound.ca
I know exactly what you mean.SteveO
Jun 4, 2002 7:20 AM
I'm superior, too.
You know, Nick, you started out your post below asking whetherbill
Jun 4, 2002 7:27 AM
you were a great sprinter -- well, I can't say I ever actually understood what you were asking. It seemed as if you just wanted to make us all understand that you were great shakes. And then when people told you that maybe you weren't, you scolded people for presuming that they knew anything about you. I don't get it.
Now, what are you asking? Saying?
I didn't understand before. I don't understand now. And I'm getting bored with you.
Signing off.
A lot of both,TJeanloz
Jun 4, 2002 7:44 AM
I've known some professionals who got to that level by shear will and determination, and others who just picked up a bike and a few weeks later they were riding for Saturn (well, not exactly, but close).

Do I think that you are genetically gifted? I have no idea. But I can give you a reality check. You went to junior worlds, which you see as a huge accomplishment. I agree, worlds is a big deal. But making the junior world team, from Canada, is not really evidence of cycling greatness. If you were on the Italian, Belgian, German, or French teams, it would give me pause; but Canada is not exactly a cycling superpower. If you were on the Canadian junior hockey team, I'd give you props- but we're talking TRACK cycling.

In all seriousness, how many velodromes are there in Canada? How many Canadian juniors didn't make the national team (i.e. how many people really 'contested' nationals?). I worked with some kids who had WON world championships in disciplines far more popular than yours, and they weren't nearly so arrogant about it.

The best tact, in my mind (which can be a twisted place), is to not tell anybody how good you are. If you are that good, everybody will know. If you are that good, when you walk into a bike shop, people will say under their breath: "that's Nick, he won___", and you'll look like a jackass if you say: "I'm Nick, I won..."

Lastly, I KNOW for a fact that there are posters here whose achievements far eclipse yours. Who are they? That's none of our business, but if they want to share it, they will. Humility dictates that they do not.
Thank you TJ. Well said!!! (nm)Jon Billheimer
Jun 4, 2002 9:01 AM
I agree... and out of respect I feel the need to respondPODIUMBOUNDdotCA
Jun 4, 2002 10:19 AM
TJ I enjoy reading your posts. So I feel a need to reply since I respect everything you say.

>I've known some professionals who got to that level by shear will and determination, and others who just picked up a bike and a few weeks later they were riding for Saturn (well, not exactly, but close).
-I'd liken this to Ullrich vs. Armstrong.

>Do I think that you are genetically gifted? I have no idea.
-Nor do you have any proof to since you've never seen me ride.

>But I can give you a reality check. You went to junior worlds, which you see as a huge accomplishment. I agree, worlds is a big deal. But making the junior world team, from Canada, is not really evidence of cycling greatness.
If you were on the Italian, Belgian, German, or French teams, it would give me pause; but Canada is not exactly a cycling superpower. If you were on the Canadian junior hockey team, I'd give you props- but we're talking TRACK cycling.
-It is a big deal. It was the first time in the history of Junior Worlds that Canada sent a TEAM. This proves Canada is moving towards becoming a better cycling nation and we are establishing great coaches. By the way Canada winning 2 gold medals in hockey whether they were a superpower in the hockey world or not was a milestrone for them. It was the first time we have won OLYMPIC gold in 50 years in a team sport.

>In all seriousness, how many velodromes are there in Canada?
-8... how many are in the United States?

> How many Canadian juniors didn't make the national team (i.e. how many people really 'contested' nationals?).
-A lot. Of course track isn't overly popular in Canada. But the reason it is significant is with the help of our coach Kurt Innes we were the first Junior men in over 10 years to break the 12 second barrier. In Canada that was a huge milestone.

>I worked with some kids who had WON world championships in disciplines far more popular than yours, and they weren't nearly so arrogant about it.
-I'm not intentionally arrogant. You just perceive it as arrogance. Once again if you really critically look at how I try to word what I say I try to avoid that as all costs but what I say will seem arrogant if you don't realize that.

>The best tact, in my mind (which can be a twisted place), is to not tell anybody how good you are. If you are that good, everybody will know. If you are that good, when you walk into a bike shop, people will say under their breath: "that's Nick, he won___", and you'll look like a jackass if you say: "I'm Nick, I won..."
-Agreed. I let my build and my riding introduce me. I got my first job as a spin class instructor yesterday from a women who I had only spoken to briefly on the phone. So I walked in and didn't introduce myself till after the class. I figured by best tact would be to let my riding speak for itself. And it did.

>Lastly, I KNOW for a fact that there are posters here whose achievements far eclipse yours. Who are they? That's none of our business, but if they want to share it, they will. Humility dictates that they do not.
-Understood. However, I enjoy a good debate so I'm willing to cross the line and if I say something that invites flamers. So be it.

Cheers,
Nick Corcoran
PodiumBound.ca
Can I have your autograph?pmf1
Jun 4, 2002 7:54 AM
Anyone know where I can get a maple leaf jersey for him to sign?

Sure you're not some guy in Chicago with the initials RRP?
My exact thoughts fisherman (nm)Paul
Jun 4, 2002 8:17 AM
Would you PLEASE STF up?gregario
Jun 4, 2002 8:04 AM
Let's all agree to ignore his constant Look At ME!! I'm so GREAT! posts.

ARGH.
re: Are great riders born or made?legs
Jun 4, 2002 8:16 AM
I am contacting all of your sponsors and writing them a quick note .. in short I will let them know that I intend never to use any of their products because of their association with you. I will send them links to your posts here. I will let you speak for yourself.

Luck to you in your endeavors.
Legs.... your are a real...bob_vanderhaus
Jun 4, 2002 8:31 AM
dickweed. Just cause the kid is a little bit annoying, gives you no reason to write his sponsors and ruin his chances to ride his bike to the best of his ability. We can write all the honest responses and flames toward Canadian Nick, but don't f$ck with his sponsors. Let me ask you this, are you a sponsored rider yourself? I think if you were, you would realize how hard it is to secure funds, and how important it is to keep them happy. Some of us could never travel and race, without the $$$ flowing in from the names on our jerseys. You can call him names but don't ruin the poor kid.
and while he's at it...gregario
Jun 4, 2002 8:40 AM
he can send to Nick's teammates his comments about how much better he was than them. I think they'd find it interesting reading, But I bet it's obvious to them how inferior they are after being around him.
2 words for you...PODIUMBOUNDdotCA
Jun 4, 2002 10:06 AM
I lied. I thought I wasn't going to respond to any other threads but this one makes me want to tell you to &*^% off. So those are the 2 words. Once again... you've never seen me ride... you've never heard me talk... let alone to my teammates. I'm good to my teammates and have unlimited respect for them. I want them to succeed. Because if I succeed and they aren't there with me, it won't mean even a fraction as much to me. For this reason I will never ever ever say I'm better than anyone else even if I do ever become the best in the world. Which most of you are adamant to shoot down. However, if you look at my wording I may say I'm good but not in relation to a single other person.

By the way I'm becoming a spin class instructor. And when I teach classes or even go into the class theres no need to say a word about what I've done. I let my riding speak for itself. Period. I like to think 1) of myself as humble, 2) that training 20 hours a week helps a lot and 3) *I* feel my genetics are good enough to succeed and that I'm not just doing what I love because I love it. But thinking and being are two completely different things and you people don't believe me to BE any of those things. When you don't even know me... PERIOD.

Cheers,
Nick Corcoran
PodiumBound.ca
I, I, I, me, me, me, mine, mine, mine. nm nm nmRoyGBiv
Jun 4, 2002 10:12 AM
So?PODIUMBOUNDdotCA
Jun 4, 2002 10:22 AM
I'm not going to argue in the third person. I know this guy... who really likes Ksyriums. Who would respect that comment? A lot of people know someone who likes Ksyriums.

Cheers,
Nick Corcoran
PodiumBound.ca
You are digging a deeper hole... Please...bob_vanderhaus
Jun 4, 2002 10:21 AM
Try and be a little more humble and people will like you more. The fact that you are a spin class instructor does nothing to help prove your point. The only spin class I ever went to was taught by a body builder that advised me to "lower my seat," or I was going to hurt my legs. I just looked at him with a puzzled gaze, wondering if the lad even owned his own bicycle.
Spin!mr_spin
Jun 4, 2002 10:23 AM
As if anyone in a spin class cares about your palmares! Are you going to try to make the Spin Instructor Junior World's too? I hear Canada has a good team this year....
I agreeweiwentg
Jun 4, 2002 8:51 AM
what's with the scorched earth policy? my goodness.
Legs.... your are a real...Pygme
Jun 4, 2002 9:22 AM
Vanderhaus, if you call someone else a "dickweed," what does that make you?
Legs.... your are a real...bob_vanderhaus
Jun 4, 2002 10:11 AM
I would agree that calling names is uncalled for unless...
you mess with a man's woman....
or his sponsors...
....for that reason, my opinion stands, anyone who is sissy enough to call someones sponsor without dealing directly with a rider is a "dickweed,".
Legs.... your are a real...legs
Jun 4, 2002 11:01 AM
with sponshorship comes great responsibility..
one becomes an ambassador of our sport...
(yes i have been sponsored....)

when one speaks in a public forum.. one also represents his sponsors... and as you know.. there is a limited amount of sponsorship support out there.. who would you like to see that support go to...? i'd like to see that sponsorship go to someone that has talent (not rare) as well as a positive sense of self...
this is an opportunity for this person to learn how to represent himself... at this time in history our sport needs humilty and commitment and emapthy..
not this voice of insecurity and unbridled need and want.
I would rather someone of character be given opportunity than someone with a blind lack social skills....and such a dimished sense of his impact upon the community of cyclists...
I dont want to look down at my ITM stem and even associate it with this person

this is my right as a consumer, as a cyclist, and as a participant in this board...
name calling seems childish....

nick.. i wish you well.. truley.. and i hope you develop your potential as a communicator with as much effort as you develop as a cyclist.
perhaps the impact of how you express your ideas and then how it affects others will give you an oppportunity to develop the kind of image that a sponsor would be hungry to have....
I think this needs as much work as does your sprint.
Legs.... your are a real...weiwentg
Jun 4, 2002 11:15 AM
all you said is true, including this:

> name calling seems childish....

but calling in to complain to someone's sponsors is a little childish as well.
Thank youPODIUMBOUNDdotCA
Jun 4, 2002 11:18 AM
I agree with all you said. Cycling needs an embassador.

But the more effect you have with some people the more you piss other people off at least unintentionally as well. So theres a fine line between them. I've learned I can't same shit all about anything I've done whether I feel it is a big deal or not because people will freak on me.

If you notice whenever I post on here I put PodiumBound.ca not anything else. That's because I am alone in speaking on here and I do enjoying a good question whether it invites flames or not. My sponsors sponsor me to ride but also represent them properly. And here people view me as not representing them properly so I apologize profusely to them but as someone said... this can be a narcassist board at times.

By the way I'm very upset with ITM whether they have been a great sponsor or not up until the crash. After I emailed them and told them I crashed and they haven't responded to any of the numerous emails I sent them. Then theres Cramerotti who I emailed and told them I broke my fork. They sent me a brand new top of the line fork right away. I respect them so much for this.

Cheers,
Nick Corcoran
PodiumBound.ca
It's really none of your business legs....tronracer
Jun 4, 2002 9:01 AM
So what if he has high self esteem, he thinks he's great, yes he is a bit annoying with his holier than thou attitude. But, give him a break, he is too young to understand how stupid he sounds. Besides, isn't he still recovering from a brain injury?!?!? You've got no right to try and ruin any part of his life for being a bit annoying at most. Who cares what the kid writes down, he's not hurting anyone, are you evil or what legs? Grow a heart.
"Grow a heart."AllisonHayes
Jun 4, 2002 9:15 AM
amen, brother!

"give him a break"

amen, brother!

"isn't he still recovering from a brain injury"

amen, brother!

"You've got no right to try and ruin any part of his life"

amen, brother!

"he's not hurting anyone"

amen, brother!

"are you evil or what?"

amen, brother!

"Grow a heart."

aaammmennnnnn, bbbrrrrrroooo!!!!!

(tronracer, weiweintg & bob vanderhaus all become standup guys, although their voices so far are in the minority; Allison fervently applauds these plaintiff cries!)
*******Huh?********PODIUMBOUNDdotCA
Jun 4, 2002 9:57 AM
Why bring my sponsors into it? When have I ever put anyone down or done anything negatively intentionally? I ask a question which shouldn't be taken negatively by anyone and I intentionally phrase it that way since I don't want to offend people. Then people find a way to take it negatively. What if I took out the whole part about me in the question that started this thread?

By the way I find it amazing how people can tell me going to Junior Worlds is no big deal since I'm from Canada.And completely miss the point I was trying to make... it took me a year to get fast enough that the Canadian Cycling Association felt it was right to send myself and my teammates. Whether my ass got whooped is irrelevant.

Cheers,
Nick Corcoran
PodiumBound.ca

PS I'm waiting to see what negative comments I get for this thread which I know I will. Once again this is probably going to be my last response to this thread.
relax....weiwentg
Jun 4, 2002 10:36 AM
> By the way I find it amazing how people can tell me going to Junior Worlds is no big deal since I'm from Canada

read TJ's thread again carefully. it is a big deal; it's not a big deal if you zoom out. no need to get all upset over it, just ride the bike. and yes, I know I can't even make it to Singapore's Junior Worlds in whatever discipline, not even if I doctor my birth certificate. as a matter of fact, I'm not even sure if we have a junior worlds ... the road cycling scene is not very big.

> What if I took out the whole part about me in the question that started this thread?

you now know the answer to that. just keep riding; eventually the results will speak for themselves. and remember, being a cycling champion need not be the be-all and end-all of your existence. if you don't have the genes to be a world champ, accept that fact and move on. if you do, then go for it, and the results will (as you now know) speak for themselves. if not, you could settle for slaughtering all the 120- and 130- pound climbers (i.e., me) on the flats in the group rides.

> Whether my ass got whooped is irrelevant.

yes, it is; good that your perspective is broad enough to know this.
ThanksPODIUMBOUNDdotCA
Jun 4, 2002 10:43 AM
I read your post and I agree with everything you said and at least in some small way I was thinking along those lines.

Cheers,
Nick Corcoran
PodiumBound.ca
re: Are great riders born or made?Pygme
Jun 4, 2002 8:24 AM
Perhaps you should have titled your post "Are pompous asses made or born"?
"Now is the time on Sprockets ven ve dance."RhodyRider
Jun 4, 2002 8:47 AM
Point being, the above subject line is as irrelevant as this thread and it's originator.
You were doing so good until the last paragraph!ColnagoFE
Jun 4, 2002 10:07 AM
You were trying to share some info and asking for comment...but then WHY DID YOU HAVE TO TURN IT INTO ANOTHER "LOOK HOW GREAT I AM" POST! Use some restraint man. There are very accomplished riders on many of the forums I read that never boast about themselves. SHOW others how great you are through results. If you are so good you shouldn't have to TELL us since we will know.
I figured that out!!PODIUMBOUNDdotCA
Jun 4, 2002 10:20 AM
I was just thinking that. I knew it would have been a good post.... if I hadn't tied myself into it.

Cheers,
Nick Corcoran
PodiumBound.ca
That's it...I'm moving to Canada...biknben
Jun 4, 2002 12:04 PM
"I made it to junior worlds in just over a year of training after being out of any sport for close to 3 months"

Did anyone else show up for qualifying???

If you're as good as you claim, you don't need to keep telling us...we'll find out.