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Seven or Litespeed(44 posts)

Seven or LitespeedRyan
Mar 25, 2002 12:01 PM
During the winter I have been researching which bike to buy for this year. I had finally decided on a Litespeed Tuscany. However it was brought to my attention that I could purchase a Seven Alaris for only a few hundred dollars more.

Taking into considering all of components will be the same, what will be the primary differences in the way the frames ride/feel?

Questions that come to mind include; how will the straight-gauge Ti found on the Seven perform compared to the manipulated tubes of the Litespeed? Can I get the same performance out of straight-gauge Ti?

I am 5'11" 190 lbs (12-13% B.F) if anyone feels this is important. The primary use of the bike will be long weekend rides 75km to 100km and shorter 30km to 40km rides during the week. Some group rides, some solo.

Any thoughts or knowledge would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Ryan
re: Seven or Litespeedpmf1
Mar 25, 2002 12:17 PM
I'm not going to join the fray of LS bashing, Seven praising, or recommending which bike is better because I have one or the other.

However, the fact that LS bikes can be found heavily discounted should enter your decision making process. If you are willing to ride last years, or the year befores model of LS, then you can save a lot of money. In the case of a Tuscany, I don't think the bike has changed much except for the decals in the last two years. The other models have changed and some not for the better. I prefer bikes w/o integrated headsets or carbon stays myself. Shop around mail order places and I bet you find a Tuscany for $800 less than the Seven. Places to try that come to mind are labicicletta.com, bicycledoctor.net, racycles.com, look in Velonews. Colorado Cyclist has retail prices. As for the Seven, there is only one place to go for that.

You should have started shopping around 3 months ago.
Straight gage TiNessism
Mar 25, 2002 12:33 PM
Don't let straight gage Ti worry you, it will be stiffer than butted. Considering you weigh 190 lbs, stiffness should be taken into consideration.

Frankly speaking considering your weight again, you really should try to ride a couple of Ti frames to see if you like them. Many of the Ti frames on the market are built to take advantage of the "lighter is better" mentality these days. The downside is that many of these Ti frames are flexy.

Good luck with your search.

Ed
Straight gage Tijtolleson
Mar 25, 2002 1:43 PM
straight gauge ti stiffer than butted? No. The Tuscany will be stiffer and more responsive than the Alaris, the entry level offering from Seven's ti line. For 190 lb. rider, I would not recommend the Alaris, just like I wouldn't recommend the LS Arenberg.

PS -- you'll be able to get the Tuscany for well below MSRP; just shop around. If you decide to go Seven, I think you'd have to go for the Axiom.
butted TIColnagoFE
Mar 25, 2002 2:55 PM
From what I've read the only thing butting does to TI is save weight at the same stiffness. Ride quality isn't really affected.
butted TIjtolleson
Mar 25, 2002 3:43 PM
Yes and no. It includes a variation in thickness (thicker nearing joints, thinner in the middle), so it can and often is stiffer than straight gauge ti. But also bikes like the Tuscany have a 6/4 BB.
Butted Ti infoNessism
Mar 25, 2002 5:41 PM
To make a butted Ti tube the following is done:

- Take standard straight gauge tube - usually .9 mm thick
- Reduce the thickness in the middle of tube through machining - Seven/Merlin use a lathe (or similar) to cut the outside of the tube

Since material is removed from the tube, the tube is made more flexable (but lighter). I suppose some company could use a thicker tube to begin with and then cut it down to reduce the weight but this is generally not the case.

And the material the bottom bracket shell is made out of is of no importance as far as frame stiffness is concern. The bottom bracket shells are cut from 6/4 for added durability.
Not exactly,TJeanloz
Mar 26, 2002 10:10 AM
Butting in the bike industry is done by one of two processes (that I am aware of). Merlin and Seven use a mandrel to cut the INSIDE of the tube. The O.D. is not changed.

Another tact is to use an acid bath to reduce the areas of the tube that you want to have reduced. I believe this is the method used by TST.
Link for youNessism
Mar 26, 2002 10:55 AM
Please check the Sevencycles.com site for information about how they feel external butting is superior to internal butting.

http://www.sevencycles.com/Main.html

I don't think this link will take you directly to the page in question but go to the "technology" tab and then to "tube butting". It is my understanding that Seven learned the external turning process from Merlin who uses it on the Extralight tubes.

And yes, it's my understanding that TST does use the chemical milling method to butt their tubes.
Link for youTJeanloz
Mar 26, 2002 11:05 AM
They're the only ones I've seen externally butt tubes. Merlin uses the internal method. They also left out one reason for externally butting tubes- it's cheaper.
Imagine that ...pmf1
Mar 26, 2002 11:17 AM
Probably can't fit the acid bath or mandrell in that little cute garage workshop where they are built by happy, caring bike-elves.

I love their testimonial on why 6/4 titanium is bad frame material.

I don't get the fascination people have for Seven bikes.
I think they learned it from Merlin...TJeanloz
Mar 26, 2002 11:35 AM
There's a tact that a lot of these small companies take to bad-mouth processes or materials that they aren't technologically capable of utilizing. We saw it earlier this week with Chris King and headsets, it comes up time and time again with ti manufacturers. You get diatribes against 6/4 or CP or 3/2.5, when it really comes down to sales schtick.
Agree and a questionNessism
Mar 26, 2002 12:00 PM
Speaking of "I think they learned it from Merlin", it's my understanding that Seven is using a similar tube butting process to that which Merlin developed. I clearly remember reading in an old magazine about how Merlin tubes are not really butted but are machined on the outside creating a "butt like" profile. I suspose the magazine could be wrong - and thus I am wrong.

From a technology standpoint, I can't figure out how a tube could be machine cut on the inside. The ridigity (or lack there of) of a boring bar would not allow this to occur.

Question:
Could you please share the source of your information regarding how Merlin makes their butted tubes. Thanks and sorry if my information is wrong.

Ed
Agree and a questionTJeanloz
Mar 26, 2002 12:06 PM
They are machined on the inside with a mandrel.

I saw it with my own eyes when I visited the factory (40 Smith Place, Cambridge MA). I presume, but do not know, whether they continue to use this process in the Otulwah facility.
The "new" Merlin,TJeanloz
Mar 26, 2002 12:13 PM
Apparently, Merlin is currently externally butting:

http://www.merlinbike.com/english/technology/butting_tubes.html
Nice link, reminds me of an old expression...Nessism
Mar 26, 2002 12:45 PM
...if you can dazzle them with brillance, baffle them with bull$hit.

Actually, there is some interesting information there. It's just buried under the propaganda.
FYINessism
Mar 25, 2002 7:24 PM
Cut and paste from Seven site regarding the Alaris:

"This great, all-around frame is especially well suited for larger riders and pedal mashers, since Seven can create an ultra-stiff tube set."

Some general purpose info regarding Ti frames.
To judge overall frame stiffness check the following:
- Frame weight
- Tube diameters
- Tubing manipulation such as ovalizing and butting

Most common tube sizes used these days are 1-3/8" down tube, 1-1/4" top and seat tube, 3/4" chainstays, and 5/8" seat stays. In order to make a stiffer frame, a 1-1/2" downtube along with 7/8" chainstays can be used. Tube shaping can also be used to stiffen the frame- ovalizing.

Most tubing used to make frames starts out as .9-1.0 mm straight gauge and is not bike specific. Thinning the tube by butting takes away material. Taking away material makes the tube more flexable.

Standard Ti frames such as LS Classic/Tuscany using straight gauge tubing (diameters as listed above) weigh approximately 3.2-3.3 lbs. for a midsized frame. In order to make a lighter frame than this, the tubes need to be thinned and/or smaller diameter tubes must be used. Both of these options make for a more flexable frame.

The ideal situation for a light and stiff frame calls for larger than standard butted tubes along with oversize rear stays. But even at that, I seriously doubt a 2.8 lbs. butted Ti frame will be as stiff as the standard 3.2 lb straight gauge frame.

Ed
Aren't Seven's also butted?Steve_O
Mar 25, 2002 12:54 PM
I don't want stir the pot but I think Seven butts their tubes. This is from their website.

http://www.sevencycles.com/Technology.html
Using proprietary processes that do not affect the tubing's grain structure or internal surface, Seven creates externally butted titanium tubing that maintains its fatigue strength and ductility. These processes allow for every possible permutation of tube diameter and wall thickness, in addition to an optimum strength-to-weight ratio, and create no surface defects or scratches.

With that said, I agree with the above posts that the Litespeed provides more bang for the $ then the Seven.
Not the Alarisjtolleson
Mar 25, 2002 3:43 PM
But yes to Axiom and Odonata.
re: Seven or Litespeedeschelon
Mar 25, 2002 1:39 PM
I'm not going to say anything about Seven but I can definitly say something about Litespeed Tuscany.

I'm 5'6" at 180 lbs...no I am not a fat guy, I was a guy who weighed 140 lbs 5 years ago and then got into body-building. Anyway, I road aluminum bikes for years and finally got a ti bike this year. The bike is plenty stiff for my weight and power. The bike is extremely comfortable when it comes to road shock...at times the bike only seems "flexy" because I'm used to aluminum bikes harsh ride and unforgiving properties. The Tuscany definitely is a twitchy race machine. The Tuscany is no NASCAR steed, rather it is a nimble Formular Cart rocket.
re: Seven or Litespeedsprockets2
Mar 25, 2002 2:45 PM
I have a similar riding preference-long weekend rides-and I also am a big guy-over 200 lbs. I had the benefit of being able to ride all of the Ti bikes that I had narrowed it down to-which it sounds like you have not-and that helped me a lot. You better ride the bikes first, if you can.

I had narrowed it down to some of the racier Ti bikes but riding them set me straight. I had thought the LS Classic would be a big sled, but as it turns out it is quick handling and just right for my non-crit -but-still-high-energy riding style and longish ride preferences. I liked it better than the Tuscany, but that is my style, I don't prefer a tight fast bike, as I already have one in steel.

I decided against a Seven in part because the 7 wasn't as stiff-not that I really focus on that, but you could tell the LS was puttin' it to road more efficiently. Also, for me, riding the LS Classic just suited me better than the 7, in a sort of intangible way unrelated to stiffness of BB. The 7 mystique is just that. I saw nothing special in it, and as I just said the proof was in the riding, the Classic was the one for me.
Seven and Litespeed have differentLazywriter
Mar 25, 2002 3:30 PM
purposes. I agree with Sporckets and will say again that when I test rode the Seven Axiom, it rode identical to my LS Classic. Nothing remarkable about the ride quality which was great, but if you need flat out performance, speed and handling, a Litespeed Vortex, Ultimate and even the Tuscany will be a better ride.
The Seven is known to be a more cushy/comfortable ride. Seven owners have admitted this and the customization thing is not necessary. Just like I bet 99.9% of people here dont have custom shoes made. Seven's attention to detail is good but their business model dictates their "attention to the customer" because they don't build bikes to stock LBS. They build bikes as they are ordered to cut down on costs, labor needs etc. All this bullsh%$ that they idealistically want to remain small and ma and pa because they want to "keep it real" makes me laugh. If they started to proliferate like LS did, I doubt they would refuse to produce bikes if the deamnd grew. That is not how a successful business is run. If Seven starts to sell a lot of bikes, you will see how miraculously their image and aura will change and people will move onto the next, more obscure brand and tout them as the best thing as the ballpoint pen.
I fell for the Seven mystique and test rode it twice because I wanted so much to really want one, but the ride was no better than a midlevel LS. Now, the Vortex was absolutely on a different performance level than the Axiom. Not on a quality level as they are both high end bike, but strictly performance, it felt an immediate difference.
The Tuscany is the best value in the LS line and I have heard from several people that LS will steer people away from the Vortex to the Tuscany if they feel that the Vortex isn't necessary for what kinda riding they do. LBS wont steer you that way, but the people at LS will. The Tuscany is said to give you 90% of the Vortex's performance and although being cheaper than the Classic, it costs more to produce. This is due to the tube shaping. So if you get the Seven, go for the Axiom at minimum, or wait to find a deal on the Tuscany because they have huge sales.
I got my 2002 Vortex for about a grand less with Speedplay x2s than the MSRP. So shop around.
There you go, generalizing...MikeC
Mar 25, 2002 5:06 PM
We all know you love your Vortex, and I've said a gazillion times that I have a very good friend who rides one. It's a great bike, and I'd never bash it.
BUT, Sevens are NOT for people who want "cushy/comfortable" rides. They're for people who want CUSTOM rides. Not just custom fits, but custom RIDES.
My "cushy" Odonata is absolutely as stiff as my buddy's Vortex, but half a pound lighter, and it fits me to perfection. Why? Because that's how I asked Seven to make it for me!
I grant you that by the time many people are ready to buy a Seven, they've moved into the time of their lives when they're ready for a little more comfort, so that's what they order. But it's not an inherent, integral characteristic of a Seven.
There you go, generalizing...Lazywriter
Mar 25, 2002 5:35 PM
I told you of my experience with my test rides of the Axiom and the Vortex. And I challenge you on the Odonata being as stiff as the Vortex when it has a 200 lb rider weight limit. Don't tell me that doesn't account for some limitations in stiffness.
Seven made your bike for you because that is all they do as a company. They make their bikes to order. If I wanted an Axiom as stff as my Vortex, the weight would increase to do it. You act like I didn't correspond with Seven on this. I spoke with and had several email contacts with Tyler Levine over at Seven and got the answers to my questions.
I was able to get answers by asking question to avoid the usual "sales pitch" and the last thing I led onto make them believe was that I was interested in was another bike than theirs. I wanted the Axiom and got info based on my eventual ordering of one and I TEST RODE it and found it to be not worthy of the hype. IT RODE LIKE MY LITESPEED CLASSIC. No better no worse.
The one I rode was "tuned" for stiffness on their scale of 1-14 on the stiffer side. I was not impressed by it. I wanted something stiffer in the bb than my Classic and the Seven didn't give me that. If I wanted it, I would need to go with heavier tubes and for that I may as well buy a Habanero cheap shi%$ bike.
Forgive me for disrespecting your coveted Odonata, but it or any bike for that matter can't be all things to all people. Plus how many Odonata's do you see in the Peleton. NONE. Not that this makes the Vortex a "better" bike, but my point is that Seven doesn't cater to or attract people who need a pure breed racing bike. The Odonata and the Axiom are very nice rides, but face it, their appeal to a lot of people is their obscurity rather than all out balls to the wall performance. The LS Ultimate is faster than any Seven despite the weight penalty.
I admit that I was a little apprehensive buying a Vortex at first when I knew I could get any custom bike for the most part for close to the same $ or cheaper, but one ride showed me the truth and the superiority of the ride (in performance terms) than the Seven I rode. Sorry, but that is my experience.
Darn it.MikeC
Mar 25, 2002 6:19 PM
I should have known I was wrong. I mistakenly thought that having ridden a Vortex for at least 500 miles would have given me some basis for comparison.
I do find it interesting that the "Ultimate is faster than any Seven." Is it faster than the Trek 5900, too? How about the 5500? Are the Pinarellos intrinsically slower than the Treks (maybe that's Jan's problem!), and how much slower are they than the Vortex? Is it just the Sevens that are inherently slow? Hmmm. Why doesn't EVERY pro just do the smart thing and ride the fastest frame instead of just basing their decision on the prettiest paint job?!!!
There is variance of about 3lb between pro team bikes, compact and traditional tt frames, steep and laid back seat angles, and all kinds of variations in materials. If one frame was clearly "fast" and another "slow," don't you think we'd see a lot more uniformity?
Why are you soLazywriter
Mar 25, 2002 6:50 PM
dense. When I say faster, you know what I mean. Responsiveness when you stand on the pedals. BB stiffness and geometry all play a role and the Ultimate happens to be that bike. For short blasts of acceleration, an Ultimate would prove faster for the same rider. Stop being silly and tell me why your Odonata has a 200 lb limit. It turns into a noodle at 201lbs ???
LS vs. 7 ... it really brings the morons outpmf1
Mar 26, 2002 5:53 AM
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah WHO CARES, ITS JUST A FRIGGIN BIKE blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Changing your screen name...tirider
Mar 25, 2002 9:20 PM
... doesn't hide your identity from those of us who recognize your misguided and rude diatribes in defense of Litespeeds. You have promulgated more misinformation here regarding bicycles with your ridiculous generalizations than I care to respond to. Only the fool feels the need to defend one brand (and might I say with such hostility) at the expense of others. Ask your therapist what the root origin is of this ongoing behavior. I'd recommend that you schedule a few appointments to resolve your issues.
Dear TiriderLazywriter
Mar 25, 2002 10:41 PM
you could ramble on all you want with your rhetoric and half a$$ analysis of me. I assure you that you don't have any idea of my inner workings.
I offered my opinion on the Seven as I experienced it and GOD forbide there is a healthy disagreement. Misinformation, hmmmmm what does that mean. I know of what I speak and don't speak of what I don't. I really do learn a lot from others here, but when others ask about Ti bikes, I have an informed opinion to offer.
Lighten up, mind your own business and stop with the silliness. I am the first to say that the new Seven Axiom in the photogallery is a beautiful bike. But it doesn't ride like a stiffer more race oriented machine. Case closed. For anyone considering any of these bikes, ride for yourself and see.
Tirider, not for nothing, butLazywriter
Mar 25, 2002 10:54 PM
you are one to talk about defending a brand. A simple search on your name shows a consistent support for the "benefits" of a custom frame and I know you ride the Axiom.
HERE ME NOW, THE AXIOM IS NOT AS STIFF OR AS FAST AS STIFFER LITESPEED FRAMES. The Seven is a great bike as far as the individualized attention and craftsmenship, but it is not a pure bred race bike.
All the custom 7s I see have setups so similar to mine which isnt custom. Hmmmm. Not too much seatpost showing and a 100-110mm stem with a comparable amount of spacers. Hmmmm. USPS and Lotto (the later riding Vortex) are riding stock bikes. Hmmmmmm Get off your high horse you arrogant SOB. Keep your comments to yourself. Ahhhhhhhhh I feel better now Dr. Ellis, that Rational Emotive Therapy really works. By the way, I have my degrees in the field.
Ti brings out the BS crowdsticky
Mar 26, 2002 7:03 AM
You sad fools. Everytime someone says Ti Bike everyone starts bashing everyone else. This is stiffer than that, your Ti isn't as good as mine, American Ti is better than anything in the world blah blah blah.. My bike is russian Ti - its light & stiff and I don't care what you Yanks think.
The same with carbon forks - this is a noodle, only an Ouzo pro is any good etc.etc.etc. What crap I get more flex from my bars than my forks.

Wake up - most bike frames in the 2.5 - 4 lb range (with the same wheels) won't make us go any faster or slower. Its a personal preference thing. Do you prefer the feel of one bike make or frame material to another. My Alu frame feels faster than my TI frame - the geometry is identical. Its because of the road buzz/vibration on the Alu bike giving me a sensation of speed. Like doing 60 in a sports car or so in a luxury car - speed is the same but the sports car feels different. I still prefer my Ti bike and if I do go any faster its because I prefer the Ti bike so I ride harder.

Enjoy bikes - enjoy riding - buy what makes you happy.
My last wordMikeC
Mar 26, 2002 8:39 AM
I pretty much agree with Sticky.
All I tried to say is that a custom bike is more than custom sizing. I asked for a stiff, aggressive bike, and I got one. At my weight (160lb) my bike gives up no flex in comparison to the Vortex, and I can deliver a pretty fair amount of power. It's ridiculous to say that a given frame is "faster" within reasonable geometry criteria unless one is a complete noodle...that's why there's so much variation in Division 1 machinery.
On fools and dogma...tirider
Mar 26, 2002 8:28 PM
... perhaps a few examples of your childish vituperative rants will refresh your memory as to why yet again you are becoming painfully annoying to those of us lacking your many "degrees".
Example 1tirider
Mar 26, 2002 8:31 PM
I said it was the LBS owner who was "Objective" and called the Merlin material a "primer on ti". You seem to have combined the two.
My animosity only stems from my giving my opinion (i did't exhibit any animosity in my first post on this thread) and then, without fail get attacked for doing so. Now, I tell you all to kiss my A$$ because I could care less for any of you pompous motherFU$%%%.
How about that???? Not looking to win you guys over, just tried to add my experience with this frame. I know what I have seen over and over.
You saved this stuff?djg
Mar 27, 2002 8:36 AM
Actually, this quote was pulled from a response to one of my posts. Curiously, lazywriter's correction about his own text was incorrect. First, I assumed I had made a mistake in parsing a perhaps unclear text. Later, I went back and checked. He had, in fact, called the Merlin "primer" "objective." Go figure. Doesn't really matter--I'm letting this nonsense go.
Example 2tirider
Mar 26, 2002 8:36 PM
I am adding you to the Douchebag List.
Example 3tirider
Mar 26, 2002 8:39 PM
and that is what I gave. Sorry you cannot accept an opinion divergent from your own but fact remains that the blemishes on the CT1s that I have seen are unacceptable for a $2000 plus frame. The pooled up adhesvie where the carbon and ti meet isn't a figment of my imagination either.
So you all could kiss my A$$ if you don't like what I have to say because it does't change the fact that the bike is of lesser quality than any American ti bike. The craftmenship on the C40 is much better than their ti bikes. I consistently see flawless c40 frames so I don't have a vendetta against Colnago.
Mickey-mac, gtx and the other predictable morons could really kiss my A$$. Ultimately buy what you want, but the fact is that Colnago's warranty and customer service sucks, immensely!!!!
And if yo read my post, you would have seen that the blemishes don't affect ride quality. However, would any of you a$$holes drive a new Porsche off the lot with a couple of dings in the door if you just spent $75000 plus on it????
No, IT IS UNACCEPTABLE, SO WHY WOULD YOU ACCEPT IT ON A BIKE OF THAT CALIBER????
Lazyrider
Example 4tirider
Mar 26, 2002 8:42 PM
I am posting under your name. You have to realize that any time someone says LITESPEED, they accuse you of flaming, baiting or whatever because everyone has a bug up their a$$ about Litespeed.
Anyway, I have had the Classic for several years and it is an awesome bike. The Vortex for $500 more is a good deal and I would go for that. It will give you almost the same comfort and be a little more aggressive. I may get one myself soon, but it is hard to justify when the Classic rides so damn well.
The 2001 don't have the integrated headsets that many people complain about and I think the traditional headsets are better, although the new Vortex head tube looks awesome.
Anticipate responses from DogSH%^, Mickey-Macdouche and GTFUXXX. I make no apologies for being such a prick as these idiots adore me and wait, search and yearn for my acknowledgement. Whatever you do, don't post your bike in the photo gallery if you don't want DOGSH$# to tell you it is an unimagiantive, dull gray bike with no soul. If it isn't some gaudy frame with chrome and paint, it is not worthy.
Mick-macdouchebag is probably doing a grammatical/text analysis right at this moment to see if you and me are the same writer. Once he is done washing his hands 50 times before bed, he'll be up all night dissecting this post and searching on my name to see how many indents I have used 6 months ago in my posts.
Please don't be afraid of my ranting here, but I couldn't resist as these retards are too predictable. So, I say hello to my fans, DogSH$# and my favorite, Mickey-macdirtysmellydouchebag. I also predict some fairy will report this post and have it pulled, but I hope the gestapo get a chance to read it before they do.
Stay Stoked DUUUUUUUUUDDDDEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sincerely
Lazyrider
Example 5tirider
Mar 26, 2002 8:44 PM
here I am!!!! Sorry fellas, once again you guys are off base. Jumping to too many conclusions on circumstantial evidence. Mickey-macdirtysmellydouchebag should know better than that. Isn't he an attorney? No wonder I can't stand him. I get a kick out of how clever you idiots "think" you guys are and I assure you that you couldn't match wits with me. I may speak with a lot of vulgarity and seem rather "unpolished", but I am not stupid. You guys on the other hand keep reinforcing your stupidity by incessantly falsely fingering me as someone else. Why waste the energy on me if I am such a troll???? I thought you guys ignore trolls and they go away. But like Michael Corleone says in that god-awful Godfather III, "once I think I am out, they pull me back in". Stop talking about me, its rude!!!!
Take care
Lazyrider <^> {º­º} <^>
Example 6tirider
Mar 26, 2002 8:47 PM
name mentioned??? My new word is co(ksucker which you both are. You co(ksuckers instigate and then all the other retards chime in when I respond with vulgarity. I also noticed someone accussed me of posting on an earlier post regarding some cognitive crap which wasn't me. I have been quiet as of late, but it is obvious you jerkoffs enjoy my company as you keep bringing me up. So go fu(k yourself Dogsh$% and HELP or is that Mickey Macdouche????.
Might I suggest...tirider
Mar 26, 2002 8:51 PM
your next "degree" be in common courtesy or spelling.
Might I suggest...Lazywriter
Mar 26, 2002 9:19 PM
you kiss my A$$. Honestly, do you really think your posts make any difference to the fact that you are a total tool?
Spelling isn't a priority here for me, I save that for more important stuff. Typos aren't indicative of stupidity, you're ramblings are you douchebag. You have a fine bike there in that Seven. Very well made. You missed my point and check out Bicycling Mag this month. The Vortex was the editor's choice. Rave reviews as was the 7 page article in last year's Cyclesport.
You are a arrogant, pompous blowhard. If you want to believe you have a superior prodict because they made it to your measurments, then good for you. But I was trying to tell this guy that he need not go for that hype and at least test the Tuscany. You have a nice bike, but it is a Lincoln Continental, not a Porsche if you know what I mean.
No love loss here, you must be a hoot at parties.
The more you write...tirider
Mar 27, 2002 6:33 PM
... the more you prove my point. Typographical errors are not in and of themselves indicative of stupidity, but combined with your (not you're) written skills, open hostility, profanity, name calling and juvenile defensiveness of one particular brand of bike, they lend themselves to our overall impression of you. And yes I am a hoot at parties, making fun of people like you.
also consider Moots Mootivator/Serotta Peloton Ti nmgtx
Mar 25, 2002 9:20 PM