|Feedback on Colnago CT1 framesets??????||joselito|
Mar 12, 2002 11:13 AM
|I want to now what you think about this frameset. Owner feedback would be great!!!!|
Mar 12, 2002 11:32 AM
|I haven't had mine all that long--got it together late fall/early winter so I cannot claim any real long rides or great overall mileage. But my impressions thus far are extremely positive. It seems a tremendous combination of a very responsive and nonetheless very comfortable ride. Thus far, I'm real glad I bought it.|
|re: Feedback on Colnago CT1 framesets??????||CT1 Guy|
Mar 12, 2002 12:32 PM
|I've now had mine 8 months - my review is posted on the site - and to be honest, the bike still gives me great pleasure whenever I take it out. I also have an old Alan Carbonio which in its day was known for its softer ride - and believe me it feels harsh in comparison. That's not to say that the CT1 is a noodle - it can jam up the steepest of hills, but all the harshness of the road is lost by the time it reaches the bars and saddle. The roads here in England can be pretty filthy and rough in the winter, strewn with potholes, farm debris etc and the bike just takes it all in its stride.
I'm quite a light rider (140lbs)and feel no discernible flex in the frame, but I can still churn out over 400 watts on the trainer so it should handle all but a pure sprinter. We have some really short, but steep 20-25% greasy roads to contend with in places and the bike manages to get the power down evenly, unlike others whose back wheels are sliding around.
The revelation was in the downhill handling - on one hill its easy to hit 50mph on the straight and then take a big sweeping 180 degree righthander. It's purely down to rider confidence to make it - even motorbikes have crashed here. First time down, I was closing on the bend at well over 50 - I straightened up, lost a little speed and laid it back down again and it took it all in its stride - inspired confidence or what?? I've been stopped for speeding on my bike in the Alps - so do know about going fast downhill.
A few people have commented on the quality of Colnago finishing - I have the clear lacquer finish and the quality of the welding is as good as any litespeed or merlin - only a Seven was better - and it was twice the price. I would say to ignore most of the bad press you read on the CT1 - most probably written by people who never ridden one to comment - all the owners I've talked to reckon its one of the best bikes out there. Buy one at European prices and it'll work out cheaper than most probably any reputable titanium bike about - you won't be disappointed - then again, it is most probably one of the best bikes in the world....
Mar 12, 2002 4:40 PM
|Well, I have to agree with some of the past comments on this bike. I was considering this bike at first with the Vortex and the Seven Axiom in the running. I have no doubt that the CT1 rides well, but the titanium used is ABSOULUTLEY of lower quality than American titanium.
In fact, the 6/4 they use is technically not 6/4 by American standards and a poorer grade at that. The ones that I have seen and that was about 7-9 different frames (CT1) all had little imperfections on the surface of the ti. Not the paint job though, the actual ti had dings and little raised beads in it.
There is a reason why this bike can often be had for $1500 when the comparable LS 6/4 frame goes for $3000. I am not saying it is a bad ride though and it looks nice if you like the paint. The owner of my LBS has one and likes the ride very much, but he is objective about the differences between American and Russian Ti. Read below, this is a primer on titanium that I got from Merlin's old website:
Russia has recently been identified as a possible source of low-cost, high-strength titanium alloys. The appeal seems to be twofold:
First, in theory, Russia's costs of labor and electricity are lower than the West's. However, costs are also lower because those manufacturers offering tubing for sports applications have not invested in up-to-date equipment and processes for optimum quality.
Second, Russian producers reportedly have a more extensive array of high-strength alloys. This, however, is a misunderstanding that arises from Russia's labeling system for its 200 alloys. In fact, many Russian alloys are similar to U.S. alloys, but carry different names or slightly different formulations. For example, Russia's equivalent to 6-4 is called VT-6. The properties of these alloys are nearly identical. And Russia's VT-5 alloy has similar performance specifications to 3-2.5.
In 1993, the Raleigh Cycle Company began distributing a frame featuring tubing manufactured in Salda, Russia (the frame is welded in England). This tubing, called BT01, is a Commercially Pure titanium approximately equivalent to U.S. Grade 4, or Russian grade VT1-1 (64 ksi yield) The yield strength is roughly 70,000 psi, an increase of 40,000 psi over U.S. Grade 1. The tubing is strengthened to this level through oxygen induction (or-oxygen hardening); oxygen content tolerance is 2.6 times higher for Grade 4 than Grade 1. Nitrogen induction is also employed in BT01 to increase yield. Although yield does increase with oxygen induction, ductility is reduced by about 80%; that is, elongation falls from 27% to 6%, creating a much more brittle structure. Fatigue strength is also reduced.
Merlin has worked with a few groups from Russia for the past four years, but so far the quality of their products has been unacceptably low. Raising the quality will require heavy investments in tooling, processing and equipment, which in turn will increase costs, probably to levels equal to or greater than those in the U.S.
Reliable delivery is also problematic, in part due to Russia's political situation. With no assurance of a stable supply or guaranteed shipments, the immediate future for Russian titanium seems questionable at best.
|re: Feedback on Colnago CT1 framesets??????||CT1|
Mar 12, 2002 8:36 PM
|Only had my BSTAY CT1 for a little over a month (1K miles) but it's the best riding frame I've ever been on. I've owned or test ridden just about everything..... well not quite everything but most all major brands.
Build quality and alignment on my CT1 was perfect.
You should check it out for yourself and decide.
Oh, I always get a good chuckle out of the whiner. ;)
Mar 12, 2002 8:40 PM
|you know that commie pinko ti stuff, like, sucks. ;)|
Mar 12, 2002 8:52 PM
|It'll be interesting to see how long it takes for the DS to howl back some more. ??? I doubt he (it??) will be able to hold out for long. Total LOL.
|Why is it that if someone expresses an||Lazywriter|
Mar 12, 2002 9:10 PM
|opinion different than the one you hold about your bike, then that person is a whiner or whatever. Bottom line is that your CT1 is made out of lower grade crappy Russian titanium and you cannot escape that no matter what gaudy guinea paint job they slap on the frame.
I said the frame rides well, but the frames I inspected had so many flaws it was laughable. The bonding that connects the ti to the carbon was oozing out where the 2 materials meet. That is crappy craftmenship. What I posted from Merlin's website was an objective primer on ti and face it, your bike is a hog. What kind of warranty did they give you on that Colnago?? Oh, I thought so. Litespeed is lifetime and has awesome customer service.
My LBS sent back a Colnago for repair and it took over 6 months. No one here can deny that Colnago's customer service blows. I was just trying to give this guy an alternate viewpoint. Stay away from the CT1 it is substandard titanium and I just gave you the documentation to prove it. Not some CT1 owner that is going to justify his purchase.
|Why is it that if someone expresses an||bobobo|
Mar 13, 2002 4:37 AM
|Don't sweat it lazywriter. CT1 got all hot and bothered at me on another thread for asking a legitimate question about the Look framne warranty policy because what I was questioning didn't exactly jive with her view of Look frames. Some guys in here really are experts (not me) and some are condescending pretenders (like CT1) Some people can't deal with that funny little thing known as an opposing view.
Maybe Colnago should have made up their minds whether they wanted to build a ti bike or a carbon fiber bike with the CT1, who knows? And you are right, the russian grade ti that they use in the CT1 and the Ovalmaster is of a lower quality than the quality 3.2 and 6.4 grades grades of ti found in upper end US made ti bikes which helps explain the relatively cheaper prices on those frames compared to quality USA ti frames. When is the last time you ever saw Colnago selling any frame of comparable quality at a discount relative to the competition??????
Just ignore the posts of the pretenders.
Ride on, be happy. :-)
Mar 13, 2002 5:49 AM
|I can believe that the Russian Ti tubes had some surface finish blemishes, but this does not mean that the tubes are "Crappy" as you say. The important thing is the alloy of the metal and who is to say that the Russian alloy is inferior?
It's common in the metal industry to grade the surface finish of net shaped parts like tubing, ground rod stock, ect. Maybe the Russian tubing company does not have the tooling to polish the tubing to the decorative finish desired by certain discriminating US bike companies. But again this does not indicate that these tubes are bad quality per say. Just that some finishing stage was not performed.
Based on responses to this issue in the past, many Colnago buyers are happy to accept some these odd random blemishes and/or don't notice them in the first place. Nothing wrong with that. For the price point of the frame, the CT1 is competive.
Mar 13, 2002 7:20 AM
|I agree with Nessism.
There appear to be a number of American posters that continue to rubbish all non american ti. Sorry, but the good ol' US does not have a monopoly on quality manufacturing. Face it many manufacturers produce good quality ti frames from tubing from eastern europe, china etc. and you cannot accept it. Litespeed/Merlin et all produce good frames using US ti tubing but they are not necessarily superior.
We don't have the same debate over the Al tubes used by the various producers of Al bikes!!
Buy a bike because you like it - enjoy it, and don't bash others for enjoying something different. (ps. check out the link - see both racing frames & public reports - lite article)
Mar 13, 2002 7:28 AM
|I've never been able to understand why people think that frames from Tiawan are bad, or why only Italians can build steel frames (and Americans titanium). Same goes with judging a bike on the basis of how pretty the welds look. Simple snobbery I guess. |
It is true that alloys differ. A frame of commercially pure (CP) titanium has to be made of thicker, heavier tubes to get the same strength as on made of 3/2.5 alloy.
|Beats me, but maybe||djg|
Mar 13, 2002 8:04 AM
|it has something to do with the frequency and stridency of your expression, not to mention the rather spectacular content of your posts. I mean, I can see why some folks get excited by their bikes--perhaps a bit beyond reason--but what's the source of your animosity? A simple negative or contrary opinion doesn't seem to explain your conduct.
By the way, how do you imagine that what you posted from Merlin is an "objective primer" on Ti? What on earth do you mean by "objective" in any case? I'm not a metallurgist, but I have done some real science in my day, and I suspect that it's in the nature of a primer to be something other than objective--even when the primer is responsible and commercially neutral (is yours? selected at random off the Merlin web site?).
I got my first road bike in 1973 and I've owned bikes built in France, England, Italy and the U.S. since then. I don't think any nation has a monopoly on the competent manufacture of bicycle frames. And I certainly don't think there's one nation that has a monopoly on the sound manufacture of metal tubing. Much as I like my CT1, I cannot imagine that it's a good fit for every body type or riding style, much less every aesthetic sense. It seems to me that Colnago has improved its quality control in recent years, and that they've improved it vastly since the early '80s (probably their nadir). But that's almost besides the point. The sorts of surface pits and oozing bonding material you've described are defects I just haven't seen AT ALL, in any Colnagos. I, too, have seen quite a few. I bought mine in England, and the finish looks terrific (and yes, my vision is fine, and yes, that fact has been recently and independently verified). There's a shop just two miles from my house (Bicycle Pro Shop, M Street, Washington DC) that does a very large business in Colnagos, and I've stopped in many times, and I've never seen anything remotely like the problems you've mentioned. Now I suppose it's in the nature of poor quality control that one sees a lots of variance. Maybe your LBS was spectacularly unlucky (somebody should be) and maybe my LBS (and me, via my English supplier) has been spectacularly lucky (somebody should be). But I wonder...
Incidentally, I have no contrary Litespeed or Merlin bashing to offer. So far as I know, they make good bikes too. The most consistently fastidious tig welds I've seen? Seven. Whatever. To each his own.
|Well said (nm)||mickey-mac|
Mar 13, 2002 8:08 AM
|also might have something to do...||gtx|
Mar 13, 2002 9:09 AM
|with the fact that he posts the same silly slander under all sorts of different names. Type "ct1" and "bonding" into the search and you'll see what I mean. Or try "ct1" and "russian" for even more. He claims that CT1 owners are trying to justify their purchase when of course that's exactly what he's doing, too.|
|hang around this site long enough...||agilis ti|
Mar 13, 2002 10:37 AM
|and someone is bound to bash the bike you ride...|
|worse yet, try posting a picture...........................(nm)||Dave Hickey|
Mar 13, 2002 11:01 AM
|You could be right.||djg|
Mar 13, 2002 10:59 AM
|There seemed, at least, a bit of defensiveness in the rant about Litespeed warranties, which was not really to the point. Curiouser and curiouser.
Unless I'm in deep denial, I think I only feel a need to justify my bike purchases to my wife. And I'm pretty sure I know where that feeling comes from. As for others, go figure...
|The original post asked about feedback||Lazywriter|
Mar 13, 2002 5:09 PM
|and that is what I gave. Sorry you cannot accept an opinion divergent from your own but fact remains that the blemishes on the CT1s that I have seen are unacceptable for a $2000 plus frame. The pooled up adhesvie where the carbon and ti meet isn't a figment of my imagination either.
So you all could kiss my A$$ if you don't like what I have to say because it does't change the fact that the bike is of lesser quality than any American ti bike. The craftmenship on the C40 is much better than their ti bikes. I consistently see flawless c40 frames so I don't have a vendetta against Colnago.
Mickey-mac, gtx and the other predictable morons could really kiss my A$$. Ultimately buy what you want, but the fact is that Colnago's warranty and customer service sucks, immensely!!!!
And if yo read my post, you would have seen that the blemishes don't affect ride quality. However, would any of you a$$holes drive a new Porsche off the lot with a couple of dings in the door if you just spent $75000 plus on it????
No, IT IS UNACCEPTABLE, SO WHY WOULD YOU ACCEPT IT ON A BIKE OF THAT CALIBER????
|Actually, if you read my post correctly,||Lazywriter|
Mar 13, 2002 5:30 PM
|I said it was the LBS owner who was "Objective" and called the Merlin material a "primer on ti". You seem to have combined the two.
My animosity only stems from my giving my opinion (i did't exhibit any animosity in my first post on this thread) and then, without fail get attacked for doing so. Now, I tell you all to kiss my A$$ because I could care less for any of you pompous motherFU$%%%.
How about that???? Not looking to win you guys over, just tried to add my experience with this frame. I know what I have seen over and over.
|sounds like "road"bikereview rage...||agilis ti|
Mar 13, 2002 5:48 PM
|is somebody having a bad day.|
|Oh, how witty||Lazywriter|
Mar 13, 2002 5:50 PM
|I am adding you to the Douchebag List.|
|In my bag I have a big dose...||agilis ti|
Mar 13, 2002 6:04 PM
|of lighten up man.|
|He's from Brooklyn||mickey-mac|
Mar 13, 2002 6:50 PM
|While that in itself is not a problem, he seems to think that being a Brooklynite entitles him to express his opinions by insulting others and spouting half-baked ideas. He seems to labor under the misimpression that he is a charming curmudgeon who just speaks what's on his mind. Most of us just find him supremely annoying.|
Mar 13, 2002 7:18 PM
|my old friend, still cannot resist me. Now I haven't addressed you directly until you chimed in this time which is proof that I normally do not intstigated things. However, without fail, you always chime in when I may have a disagreement with someone else.
Now, my being from Brooklyn is not a justification for my poor social skills. What is, is the fact that you are a jerko$$ worthy of an insult. Charming, yes I am. Half baked ideas, well, any idea other than the one you have is a brilliant one. Now go to sleep you pain in the a$$
|A college professor once told me....||agilis ti|
Mar 14, 2002 3:57 AM
|that lazywriters resorted to profanity and poor dialogue because they just didn't know of a well thought out or a profound way of saying the same thing. You my friend have a keen awareness into your sensabilities.|
Mar 14, 2002 10:50 AM
|we cannot all be so witty as to call people "morons" and "a$$holes" and "douchebag[s]" so perhaps you could employ the principle of charity and bear with us.
You keep insisting that people cannot tolerate divergent opinions, yet you fly off the handle when people criticize you, and you seem to do so quite independent of whether the criticism is polite or not. However bad it has gotten on the other side, you seem to be winning the race to the bottom here.
As for opinions: I repeat that I cannot see any of the very visible defects you complain about on my bike and I haven't seen them on any other CT1. Now, I suppose that whether a given bond or weld is neat enough might be a matter of opinion, but if I don't see a hole I don't see it--I'm claiming a matter of fact, not opinion, albeit a fact that's dependent on my (perfectly good) subjective powers of perception.
And no, I wouldn't buy a $75k car with a bunch of dings in it. Or without a bunch of dings in it.
This grows tiresome, but the pedant in me cannot resist one more point: your friend at the LBS is no more an objective standard than is Merlin's web site. He may or may not be impartial, but that's not the same thing.
|I'll try.||Len J|
Mar 14, 2002 6:34 AM
This is not an attack. Honestly.
I have observed this back & forth for many months now and I would like to share my observations with you in the hopes that you can see your part in the escalation that seems to occur every time you post. Notice I didn't sy that it was all caused by you, but I think that you contribute to it.
First of all, let me say that I think you are sincere. The problem (as I see it), comes from your personal attachment to your oponions. You post your oponions & experience, great. But then if someone has a different set of experiences or if someone disagrees with you, you take it personal & quickly respond with anger & defensiveness that eventually reduces to name-calling. IMO this reduces th value of your experiences & oponions. I am not saying that all of this is your fault, I know that there is so much history at this point that people respond to you in ways that "push your buttons" in an attempt to get you angry.
At this point we could argue all day as to weather this started with you or with someone else attacking you. It's kind of like a chinken or egg question, there is no way to determine where the fault lies. The reality is that as long as you respond angrily to "Baiting" reply's to your posts, the same things are going to keep happening. ("If you always do what you have always done, you'll always get what you've always got).
I would suggest that the best thing you could do to change this, is to post your experiences & oponions, knowing that some people will agree, some people will disagree, and some people will attempt to bait you (based on the history)into an angry response. The only thing you have any control over is wether or not & how you respond. If you take the high ground & ignore the baiting, I guarantee that eventually it will go away, it will get bored & go bother someone else. The hard part (It seems to me) is realizing and accepting that, some people will not agree with you. That's OK & is thier choice, It's not personal unless you let it be personal.
Stay oin the high ground, remember, getting down in the mud with the pigs only accomplishes two things, it gets you dirty & it entertains the pigs. It's your choice not thiers as to how you react.
To the rest of you that so incessantly seem to have made it a mission to drive Lazywriter off the board:
You have a choice as to wether to "Push his buttons" or not. I for one, am tired of it. It definatly takes two to tango & you guys are one of the two. Please give it a rest. All of us on this board have things that can be taken advantage of to "push our buttons", we all have issues. I would hope that this board would begin to respect each of our differences. C'mon guys, take the high ground.
End of soap box speech.
|Was not pushing buttons...||agilis ti|
Mar 14, 2002 8:19 AM
|In fact was not in the discussion at al, i merely stated that every bike in here has been bashed at one time on the other, my bike company for instance had the indignity of being bought by litespeed, bash, bash, bash. Put it is all good i love my bike, so i let those comments go for the most part, but to be called names, i will go ahead and purposefully make sure that the offender shows him or herself in a light that is less than flattering. The desired effect for myself is that this person will be tagged as obnoxious and tire of the game. In short, i will cease to do this in concerns to lazy writer, if he should respond i will not and then maybe he can get some sleep at night rather than thinking up his next insult.|
|Actually, if you read your own post correctly,||djg|
Mar 14, 2002 7:49 PM
|Lazywriter, Mar 12-02, 9:10 PM, says "What I posted from Merlin's website was an objective primer on ti..."
Or are you farming this stuff out to cheap Russian internet posters?
Whatever. I gather we're all done here.
|re: Feedback on Colnago CT1 framesets??????||bornin1964|
Mar 14, 2002 6:04 AM
|I've got a CT1 and have put a over 500 hundred hours on it. The bike rides great - it is stiff but absorbs much of the road vibration.
I've got the clear-coat and the workmanship is nearly flawless, the join between the stays and the Ti are clean. I don't know why people with an inferiority complex feel the need to bash - but hey they've probably got small feet too! 8-)