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breaking haiku vow; most troubling knee problem...hep mah!(31 posts)

breaking haiku vow; most troubling knee problem...hep mah!Js Haiku Shop
Mar 11, 2002 6:05 AM
ok, so last sunday (3/3) i went for a hilly 30 on the SS and decided not to stand up at all. by the end of the ride, my right knee was hurtin' something fierce, even soft-pedaling with the right leg. in fact, it seemed to hurt a bit less if i was going uphill (?) and putting some [umph] behind it. knee hurt after getting off the bike, but only when in use: walking, driving, fidgeting. i RICE'd it for a few days, then just RC (rest and compression) for the remainder of the week.

saturday (3/9) i got on the bike (with gears) for a short and easy 30 with some friends, but let them go up the hills while i took my sweet time, being careful, and pulled back up on the flats. the knee was a little tight and strange feeling for the first 25, but no worries. between 25 and 30 it became painful, and at 32--pedaling into the driveway at home--i was using one leg only. yesterday and today it's not been sore at all, but a little tight, and does complain if moved the wrong way.

the pain: it's a more general/dull sensation at first, and on the front and outside of the right knee, while going through the pedaling motion. it stops when i stop pedaling. again, it didn't hurt until 25 miles in on saturday.

the origin: i'm thinking i twisted it wrong, then aggravated it pushing hard on the SS. this could be wrong, but...i've not had any problems over about 800 SS miles since 1/1/02, and i pushed pretty hard on some of those rides.

the treatment: ace bandage covering entire knee, taking it easy, nightly immersion in hot water, no riding or running.

the problem: i have a century in two weeks (3/23). though i'm not concerned about being off the bike between now and then (losing form), i am a bit worried about not being healed completely, then blowing it on the century, which is a rolling affair. of course, i'm also at the top form for the last 18 months RIGHT NOW, so i'm going stir crazy, so that's a problem, too.

the question: have any of you experienced this? what is this knee problem i'm having? just a temporary strain? and, am i going about this the right way? what else could i do to maximize recovery? should i be riding short, easy trainer sessions? hmmm?

TIA
similar problems for me...different , but ive learned some thingsishmael
Mar 11, 2002 7:00 AM
ive had problems in the back of one knee, and still do, but its gotten better i think from strengthening apposing muscle groups....im sure you have something different, my problem is the back, but you say it feels tight and thats how mine feels...also mine mostly hurts doing other things besides riding (unless im doing alot of miles)...try doing a couple reps of all the different leg exercises at a gym, it has helped me....your problem sounds as if it wont be agrivated by it atleast..and it might help you to isolate the problem, ive found that is the hardest thing with a knee problem unless you get a cat scan or something...ive had different docs tell me different things, it seems to me atleast that the best person to figure out what is wrong is the person with the knee problem...listen for ticks and pops or pain when you sit on your heals and such...good luck, try another sport and see if it agrivates it, you might be out for a bit..
No heatgregdogg62
Mar 11, 2002 7:13 AM
I would recommend seeing a Doctor, but I do know that the last thing you should be doing is immersing it in hot water. When in doubt always ice. Heat will draw more blood to an injured area and cause swelling. You don't want that. I have had a problem with my knee for the last year(runners knee) and after every ride or run I ice it. This is what I was told to do after seeing seeing an orthopedist and a physical therapist. It helps alot. I ended up doing more harm this last year to my knee by training, when I should have been resting. Resting is a hard thing to do, especially when you have set goals for yourself, but in the end it will have you back to normal quicker.
No heatnetso
Mar 11, 2002 7:56 AM
Heat feels good, but as you say it causes circulation to increase in the area. This makes the problem worse. Always ICE. 20 minutes on 20 minutes off.
check out this siteharper
Mar 11, 2002 7:25 AM
Check out the site below, it provides lots of good info, plus will link you out to other quality sites. Good luck.

Is this a hazard with single speeds?tarwheel
Mar 11, 2002 7:43 AM
Sorry, can't offer you any suggestions, but I'm just curious if this isn't an "occupational Risk" with riding a SS? It seems like you've got no alternative but to grind up the hills with a SS, which is the worst thing for knees. On flat terrain, I can understand the appeal of a SS, but I want some gears if I'm riding any hills. That's why I ride a 10-speed with a 13-29 cassette, because it's very hilly where I ride. My knees have nevered bothered me. I'm not gloating or trying to rub salt in the wound, but I'm just wondering if the SS craze isn't a little misplaced for people who ride in hilly terrain.
ss or gears, i'd have been mashing up hills either way...Js Haiku Shop
Mar 11, 2002 7:57 AM
that's what i went out to do on sunday. perhaps it's a process problem and not a tool problem, but i don't know. then again, i've done hill work, including repeats and intervals, on the rolling terrain 'round here with zero problems. even taken the SS to our "big hill" for repeats on the 1/2 mile climb. could barely turn the cranks, but went home with sore legs, not sore knees...
might be a good time to learn the fine art of spinning ....tarwheel
Mar 11, 2002 8:02 AM
BTW, pedaling with one foot at a time is one of the best ways to increase your spinning speed.
sound like ITBSSteve Davis
Mar 11, 2002 7:48 AM
Pain on the outside of your knee sounds like ilio tibial band syndrome to me. In addition to RICE, I treated similar problems with Advil, and lots of stretching. Good luck.

http://www.howtostretch.com/iliotibi.htm
Does it...Kristin
Mar 11, 2002 8:37 AM
...transition fairly quickly from a dull pain to a stabbing pain? Thats how I experienced my ITBS. I would feel just a dull ache in the knee for about 3-5 miles, then it would feel like little pin pricks on the down stroke, then it would feel like someone was sticking a 22 gauage needle into the bone and twisting it around.

I've been told that ITBS can cause pain anywhere along the IT Band. There is an indicator on the image below of where the pain typically occurs. Mine hurt lower than that; right where the IT Band attaches to the Tibia.

Here are 2 Links on ITBS:
http://www.csuchico.edu/phed/atc/Projects/ITband/ITBFS.html#Anatomy
http://www.sover.net/~sstryker/itbs.html
Does it...Js Haiku Shop
Mar 11, 2002 11:02 AM
more or less, yes--dull to sharp. thanks for the links!!!
From one with a bum knee to anotherAhimsa
Mar 11, 2002 9:18 AM
My right knee went bad on me a few years ago (though I'm a fairly young guy) when I upped my riding alot. I'm quite certain that
I was aggravating an old injury (was a furniture mover briefly) since it seems only to be in my right knee and there was no real coresponding injury episode on the bike.

My 2 cents:

Get an MRI

Get some glucosomine chondroitin tabs

The MRI is really the BEST way for a doc to get a clear picture of what's happening in there. It would help you immensely to treat the problem if you and your doc know exactly what is wrong. Be insistent about it. CT scans are great, but I have been told by rad techs that they do not show ligaments and soft tissue injuries as well. FWIW.

The gc tabs are great stuff. I took them for awhile when my knee was bad (two bottles worth) and had much quicker recovery. It does take time to take effect. Is it merely placebo effect? Who knows? Who cares? It worked. That's enough for me.

I may start a course just as a precaution this spring.

Good luck. Do not self diagnose. Do not take knee problems lightly if you want to stay on the bike.

Cheers!

A.
About glucosomine chondroitintempeteKerouak
Mar 11, 2002 9:40 AM
I would really like to know who's bee using it and why.

I was told wonders about it. But here's my story:

I lost weight by running last fall and at the beginning of winter. Doing so I increased the mileage and took Glucosamine Sulfate in PREVENION.

I posted here in January about a sudden sharp pain at the hip. I saw two sports specialists. Turned out I have a (mostly resolved now) trochanterian bursitis. Stopped running and the gluco supplement, kept riding my bike, started stretching. Now I feel fine.

Of course rest and attention probably solve my problem but, my subconscious is telling me this has to do with it.

Like you said about the placebo effect, I have the opposite conviction! My problem appeared after taking it. I've never really taken any supplements in my life before, but I have run a lot. Still, I was fat and out of shape, and the mileage probably has to do with tha pain, like the rest had to do with the cure more than glucosamine...

Puzzled!
Placebo effect in dogsscottfree
Mar 11, 2002 10:04 AM
Dogs don't know placebo, and my mastiff with a bum hip (confirmed by radiograph as dysplasia) began walking normally and pain free about 6 weeks after starting a regimen of glucosamine/chondroitin/Ester C. Vet says he has seen many, many dogs who shouldn't be walking at all, according to X-rays, respond that way. I have long felt that glucosamine was good for my poor knees, but secretly wondered if the effect was in fact placebo. After seeing what it does for my dog, I'm now a true believer.
Heh!Ahimsa
Mar 11, 2002 10:13 AM
Now if I can just find a dog with my allergies and feed him Alegra!

A. (Dogs on garlic, dogs on B vitamins, dogs on chromium, dogs on taurine, dogs on Kava kava....great idea!

Ew, wait, does this equate to animal testing? Heh heh heh! C'mere boy!)
Placebo effect in dogstempeteKerouak
Mar 11, 2002 10:30 AM
Like I said, I don't say it doesn't work. I just don't know what it did to me. The pain I'd never felt before coincided with the supplement intake (three weeks to a month after taking 1gr a day...)

But my pain is now gone and I might go back to glucosamine just to see if it comes back. I have never heard of anybody linking the supplement with any problems anyway, it's just me who says that.

btw; we got some condroitine in prevention for the dog (bernese mountain dog) but he seems fine without it (almost 2 years old now!)

Sorry Haiku! back to your prblms!!!
I've got to agree it was the running...Brooks
Mar 12, 2002 9:44 AM
and not so much the glucosamine. I've also heard vets prescribe for dogs with dysplasia. I've used it for three years now (scoped left knee) as preventative. Does it work? Don't know, it's not something I can really prove. But I play basketball alot, ski, and, of course, bike so my knees get a pretty good workout, both weight bearing and non-weight bearing and in different planes of motion. Costs about $6/month so it's pretty cheap. Reports I've read don't give much validity to chondroitin, and the sulfate form of glucosamine is what you what.

My non-medical two cents.
Brooks
I did research at the timeAhimsa
Mar 11, 2002 10:05 AM
It was tested on arthritis sufferers and had promising results in double blind studies. The jist of it is that the building blocks of cartillage are provided in the supplement and help to lead the body into rebuilding of joint padding. The sulfate component of the supplement does something else, but I forget the details. This was awhile ago for me.

I'd give you links, but

A) At the time I just used a search engine and read everything I could hit.

B) I'm lazy and don't feel like digging up any links.

You'll find tons of info out there with a simple search. If I were in your position I would blame the running, not the supplement, and perhaps try it again sans the jogging just to see.

Cheers!

A. (Hate to run. Hurts my knees.)
Yes to ICE, stretching, rest. Maybe tiger baulm but still...tempeteKerouak
Mar 11, 2002 9:25 AM
«and does complain if moved the wrong way.»

You twisted it you think? Mmmm.

I also agree with K. about the Illio-tibial band as a potential friction point. But you mention pain/discomfort at the front too... Did you hurt the meniscal disc? (outward torsion???) Do you have pain in the joint (between the bones at the side) or on what feels to be the top of a bone. Is is only the dull pain or does it turn into a more precise pain?

Look for tendinitis, bursitis, meniscal inflammation...

Good rest and stretching sessions at the same time. Proper warm up...

Spinning would tell if it's position (pedal/cleat) related would'nt it?
Yes to ICE, stretching, rest. Maybe tiger baulm but still...Js Haiku Shop
Mar 11, 2002 11:00 AM
agreed on the spinning--i was very precise on my saturday ride. now that i think about it, the knee hurts a bit if i plant the ball of my foot, but twist my heel inward--like unlclipping, only backwards. again, it's also "tight" feeling, and sort of uncomfortable, but not painful, just in walking around and doing stuff.

the pain on the bike started as a dull, generally uncomfortable feeling, then became more targeted and specific. not above the kneecap, but more on the front and/or below the front and outside. really very difficult to put a finger on exactly where it hurts when it's hurting (during the ride), only that i wouldn't want to ride too far with it feeling like that. :-(
Man, this sounds like a cleat placement problem...tempeteKerouak
Mar 11, 2002 11:14 AM
Did you change your set-up; cleat, saddle etc...

Did the cleat move...

Hum!
as a matter of fact...Js Haiku Shop
Mar 11, 2002 11:48 AM
I was using a new pair of mtb shoes & cleats on last saturday. it was raining for the last 30 of 45 miles, and i had to leave the shoes in the laundry room for a few days to dry out. the next day is when the knee really started hurting, near the end of the ride. i was wearing an older pair of mtb shoes the next day. both days were road bike.

this saturday i was wearing road shoes with look cleats (the red ones). not sure if cleat placement is too much of a concern with 9* of float--is it? so, maybe the 45 on new shoes/cleats irritated things?
ps: those mtb cleats/pedals only have 4* float. nmJs Haiku Shop
Mar 11, 2002 11:49 AM
2nd the ITBand being the problemjbax
Mar 11, 2002 1:55 PM
I just had the doc diagnose me with the same thing and my symptoms were exactly the same as yours. Ice, stretching and easy (spinning) for a couple of weeks at a min. Or at least thats what the Doc told me (well except for the riding part, he told me not to do any of that)

Anybody know how long it takes to work thru an ITband problem (weeks, months????)
1 month if done right. Remain active through somthin else (nm)tempeteKerouak
Mar 11, 2002 2:10 PM
what activity if no use of knee? i'm dyin' over here! nmJs Haiku Shop
Mar 11, 2002 2:49 PM
Let's talk miles.MB1
Mar 11, 2002 5:02 PM
Dude, haven't you been training more than ever before? Do you keep a training log? Have you increased your mileage and effort by more than 10% this OFFSEASON????

There is a reason for an offseason. Now don't get me wrong, I like what you have been doing but look at this as a warning from your body to your mind. Your body is saying "Yo, buddy! What do you say we take it a little easier for a while. Let me get used to what you want to do."

Put your old shoes back off, slow down, skip the century in 2 weeks. Get healthy. It is very early in the year.

Take care,
Mark
hmm...JS Haiku Shop
Mar 12, 2002 11:00 AM
i'd have to run the numbers, but yes--i do keep a log on all rides and other activity (gym, running, etc.). my weekly miles have been typically 80-100, depending upon the weather and other variables. this does not include training time, it only includes saturday and sunday rides (sat/sun 60/30 average). since i had the flu a few weeks back (was off the bike), i have been ramping it back up pretty quick, and decided the week before this started to hit the trainer most every night instead of gym & weights. so, i'd say my saddle time increased much more than 10%, but only on not-actual-riding-on-the-road time. i put more time in on the trainer and kept the rest the same. oh, yeah--and a good leg workout. hmmm...then a suffer-fest windblown and rainy ~45 mile saturday, then a sit-down and crank 42x18 over the hills sunday. yep, i pushed it too far.

my century in two weeks (already registered and paid-for) is now off. i'm just hoping i'm back in the game by early may.

funny how i live to ride (actually, i "Live to Dad"), and when i can't do it, it's like i've lost a major internal organ or something.
When assessing knee problems.........Len J
Mar 12, 2002 11:16 AM
Why would you exclude trainer miles?

Most Bike related (Non-crash) injuries are repititive motion related (Even one's that are related to repetitvly mashing with a change in foot position), and as such I think that if you are trying to tell if it is a ramp up issue, then you need to compare all time that you are repeating the motions that are causing you the injury.

Long winded way of suggesting that you compare time on the bike 2.5 mos last year with this year, I would bet your time is way up, and your intensity is probably up also. Your body is suggesting that you slow down your training.

My experience.

Len
suggesting? understatement of the year...JS Haiku Shop
Mar 12, 2002 11:19 AM
I was indestructable two weeks ago. i'm not a spring chicken, either...ripe old 30! yep, i'd agree it's a sign, body or from the bike dieties, to slow down.

on the upside, i sure am getting alot of stuff done around the house. surprising what you can get done all day saturday!
I think IT band too.Mike P
Mar 11, 2002 5:22 PM
I did a lot of hill work last fall. My knees both had a pain like you describe, lower, outside. I trainer friend of mine told me to:

1. Take a couple days off. I took off 3, started back easy for the next week or so.
2. Find an over the counter anti-inflamitory.
3. Stretch that IT band at least 4 times a day. 3 sets on each leg.

The howtostretch.com site has an example of seated stretch, which my friend suggested. He also said this area can be stretched standing by simply grabbing the foot with same side arm and pulling the foot up behind you. I like this method because I can do it just about any time, at work or wherever, without having to get down on the floor.

I don't like that feeling in my knees, kind of scared me, so I still do those stratches.

Oh, and by the way, I had no pain whatsoever after 10 days.

Stretch,
Mike