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Boycott TREK(191 posts)

Boycott TREKcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 4:54 AM
As an environmentalist, I am calling for a boycott of TREK. Shortly after the Tour De France, George W. Bush was presented a TREK donated by the TREK Corporation and Lance Armstrong. George W. Bush's record on the environment is horrendous. He is calling for more powerplants in California to produce more pollution. He wants more drilling in Alaska. We cannont continue to hurt Mother Earth like this. Therefore, lets send a message to TREK, and boycott them based on their actions.
Eugene Kaudill
TREK bashingdano
Mar 3, 2002 5:17 AM
Boycott TREK simply because they donated a bike to President Bush? I could see a call for a boycott if TREK were actually doing something wrong, but your reasoning that a boycott of TREK will affect Bush's environmental policies at all is extremely thin. Personally, I think your true motivation is a dislike for big companies like TREK who have a lot of influence over the market. I see so much TREK-bashing on cycling websites. I see this just another attempt to bad-mouth an excellent company.
TREK bashingcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 5:44 AM
Actually, I never once considered boycotting Trek because they have become a large corporate conglamerate. Not a bad idea, because I do believe that large corporations are evil. However, this is based on the envrionmental policies of those EVIL REPUBLICANS, not on the fact that TREK has increased its marketshare by destroying the reputations of good small cycling companies in which they bought up. Gary Fisher is an environmentalist, and yet he fell prey to the evils of TREK. Let's not forget LeMond and Klein. TREK is no different than ENRON. TREK too takes advantage of their workers and pay them pennies to what they really earn. Let's not get into that though. The fact is that they had no problems having their product photographed with the single greated threat to good environmental policies, GW BUSH. If Bush cared about the environment, he wouldn't be crusading through Afghanistan detroying their fragile ecological system with weapons of mass distruction. The nuclear clock has moved too since he took office. Doesn't this sober you up? What about drilling in Anwar? He will kill more moose and more trees by doing so, which will upset the environment in Alaska. This will eventually lead into warmer temperatures in Alaska, which will cause the poles to melt. The great state of California, which I call home will be drowned by this new melted water released into our already polluted oceans. Yet, most of you don't even care. I call you to do something you love like ride your bikes more and ride yourselves of you SUVs, and you laugh at me. You say this doesn't belong on a Bicycle message board, even though I am advocating the use of more bicycles. My environmental friends and I just wish to rid the world of the SUV. I do think the truth hurts your pride SUV owners. Hurt pride doesn't stand up to the end of mankind and Mother Earth though.
You have a few things wrongPaulCL
Mar 3, 2002 6:11 AM
First of all..the Taliban was doing more to rape the environment of Afghanistan than our bombs. Once we leave the country, their natural crop (opium) will flourish.

As a poster commented on one of your other lengthy diatribes, his SUV (and mine) probably put out 10% of the hydrocarbons that your 10 year old VW rabbit does. SUVs are not inherently evil. Yes, they give a driver a false sense of security. Yes, there are too many of them. Yes, few people who buy them actually 'need' their capabilites. Yes,it is a fad and will pass.

If you want to reduce smog, then promote being a vegetarian. Why? Because cows farts and pig byproducts produce more pollution than all of the SUVs and 10 yr old Rabbits combined! Personally, I won't give up my prime rib - its' too damn yummy.

All republicans are not EVIL. There are many Republicans who care about the environment as much as you do. They just go about it differently. Maybe you don't realize that the care of the environment has to be managed in conjunction with the economics of the time. I respect your fervor, but it is so narrow that I doubt you can see beyond your one cause. I consider myself a moderate republican and I do care quite a bit about the environment that my children will inherit. As strange as it sounds, we need people like you (very fervent, let's say radical in their view) to counter act those who could care less about the environment.

But please take this to another board. This is for cycling. Though you mention bikes in passing, it belongs on the non-cycling board.
Paul, you are my heroDave Hickey
Mar 3, 2002 6:28 AM
Paul says " Because cows farts and pig byproducts produce more pollution than all of the SUVs and 10 yr old Rabbits combined! Personally, I won't give up my prime rib - its' too damn yummy."

Finally, a environmental debate I can understand. Keep up the good work.
I am a vegitarian and a member of PETAcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 8:23 AM
I agree with you about more cows producing more greenhouse gasses. We can fee far more people if we used the land cows feed on to produce fruits and vegetables.
no, you're a misguided idiot...merlinguy
Mar 3, 2002 8:29 AM
Since I'm not a nice as everbody else on this board I'll say what nobody else will: Dude, shut the fukk up! Yer a flaming godddam moron. Nobody gives a rat's asss what you think about anything. SHUT UP!
no, you're a misguided idiot...cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 8:43 AM
Obviously you are wrong. Look at the responses that my post get. If I steer one person the right way from these post, then we are winning.
Of course you are...DrPete
Mar 3, 2002 8:34 AM
Of course you're a vegetarian and PETA member. They're very trendy causes, and I bet all your Sierra Club friends are doing it too. It's ever clearer to me that you haven't really thought out these arguments. Please reference "Overboard" posted in this same thread. Hmm... no response from that one yet....

It sounds to me like you're willing to pick up a flag for any cause and become a zealot because it's somehow a cool thing to do. If you haven't caught on yet, you're not convincing anyone with this babble you keep posting.

"The wise man speaks because he has something to say. The fool speaks because he has to say something." --Plato
Of course you are...cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 8:46 AM
How sad that you question the sincerity of my dedication to the causes I believe in. I never questioned anyone elses sincerity. I just posted why I think we would be better off if everyone rode bikes. Not to mention the obesity problem that is so apparent in this country. Our nation is getting fatter because of so many luxuries.
Of course you are...DrPete
Mar 3, 2002 8:55 AM
I don't question the sincerity. What I question is the extremism with which you approach every statement you've made on this forum. If you were to say "we should ride more and drive less," people would listen and maybe even agree with you, but instead you go on this "recycle your SUV" rant and that turns people off. Same thing here. Your association between Trek and Bush is a stretch at best, and really is pretty irrational. Public gestures like that are made all the time, and I bet neither party saw it as a policy move. Now you're on the "give up luxury" kick, you're preaching vegetarianism, and throughout all of it you're coming across as an idiot. If you truly believed in a cause, you would try to research it as much as you could so you could back yourself up when you're on the forums making your claims.

I'm no psychologist, but it continues to sound to me like you feel better about yourself if you associate yourself with as many causes as possible, and not really taking the time to really think about what you're saying. I'm not telling you not to be sincere or passionate--I just think you should try to be more rational about it.
Of course you are...cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:00 AM
So I am an extremeist because I don't think like every mindless person who goes to work everyday in their SUV without considering car pooling or any other form of transportation. I challenge this notion, and that makes me an extremist. I care about the environment, the animals, and mother earth. That makes me an extremeist. I beleive that bicycles should replace cars. That makes me an extremeist. Sorry, I don't think so. I just wish to make Earth a better place to live.
Of course you are...DrPete
Mar 3, 2002 9:05 AM
No, that doesn't make you an extremist. It makes you someone who cares about the environment. What makes you an extremist is the fervor with which you attack everyone while knowing so little about what you're talking about. It's not the statement--it's how you deliver it.
Of course you are...cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:12 AM
I haven't attacked anyone. I requested a peaceful discussion. I have asked people to give up their SUVs. I never threatened them with terrorist actions. If I did, that would make me an extremeist. I am making a plea, not threatening.
tUSA has 6% of worlds population, uses 24% of it's energy(approx)Paul
Mar 4, 2002 12:06 PM
We are FAT in so many ways, SUV's, obesity, greed, don't give a shit attitude towards the enviroment. No, we must change our ways. Bush is in the back pocket of coporate America, could care less for the enviroment, and is making us look like jerks in this world.
tUSA has 6% of worlds population, uses 24% of it's energy(approx)cosmicallyconscience
Mar 4, 2002 3:14 PM
Paul,
Thank you for adding this to this discussion. Where have you been during most of this? I really thought this board would have more environmentalist posting. Please feel free to add anything else that might make some of these people think about just how fragile the environment is.
Eugene Kaudill
then kill yourelf .nmmerlinguy
Mar 3, 2002 2:22 PM
then kill yourelf .nmcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 2:38 PM
I would rather see people recycle thier SUVs.
In Response to Happy Gocosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 2:43 PM
Posted by: HappyGo Mar-03-02, 01:48 PM


Well, old CosmicBoy had better clean up his own backyard first. As a state, California is probably full of more "Western Excessive Lifestyles" than any other state in the Union. I think the Boy's two main problems are:
1) he apparently has a lot of difficulty reading or comprehending the English language, otherwise why would he bring up environmental issue complaints in a road bike forum?

2) Most of his shouting is completely unsupported by those nice little things known as facts. He chooses to ignore and or refuses to acknowledge huge environmental wrongs going on in his very home state while shouting for everyone else to clean up their environmental act. he ridiculously attempts to tell people they should boycott our President because he received a bike as a gift from the Trek corporation - what in the world did that have to do with environmental issues? His extremely biased and opaque Vegan/Peta views of the world are borderline ludicrous - does he actually think cattle farming contributes more to the Greenhouse effect than car emmissions in Calif???? I'd love to know which Petan or Vegan has been spoon feeding him that bunch of complete mularkey.

He basically appears to be the worst of all worlds - misinformed, no facts to support his outrageous claims, doesn't know the proper forum, manner or style with which to present his or her argument and completely blind of the huge environmental wrongs perpetrated in his very own state.

reminds me a lot of all the idiots who trashed Seattle during tha last big world economic conference there. Most of the idiots out in the street prtesting didn't even know what they were protesting if you asked them. Just a bunch of uninformed, unemployed, unmotivated malcontents for the most part trying to stir up trouble just for the sake of stirring up trouble.

Add it all up and you don't have what most people would consider a good combination for success on his or her part.


My reply:
Happy Go, yes I understand that this is a bicycle form. I really felt in me posting this that bicyclist were true friends of the environment and might take up the fight for Mother Earth. I guess I overestimated most of you. As you are probably arm chair quarterbacks and this is just one more little bit of testosterone that takes you ever closer to those glory days of high school. Sorry to overestimate this crowd.

Seond of all, the facts that I point too are the same the scientist point to each day. It is called Global Warming. Surely you have heard of it.

Finally, I was in Seattle for the world economic conference to protest. Our cause was just...Is yours?
...then kill yourself .nmmerlinguy
Mar 3, 2002 2:23 PM
...then kill yourself .nmcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 2:44 PM
Why do you keep posting this? Is this being what you would call a troll?
Vegans lifestyle destroys the environment!!Laughing at U
Mar 3, 2002 8:44 AM
You probably are a big enough idiot to think that meat farmong hunters and fisherman destroy the environment more than plant production don't you?? WRONG!! Vegetable farming is responsible for more clearcutting of tropical rainforests and coniferous forests than any other type of farming. Huge amounts of wetlands are polluted from chemical runoff from agricultural plant farming, not animal harvesting, but you already knew this didn't you?

Go eat a Tofu burger now and think about how much of the worlds environment ids destropyed each year so you can eat your veggies and friuts! Think of how many forests, open prairies, wetlands and rainforests have been decimated to produce your non meat diet. Don't think too hard, I would not want you to strain anything.
Vegans lifestyle destroys the environment!!cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 8:47 AM
I never once stated that the rainforest should be cut down to build farms on. I stated that beef farms should be used to grow vegetables. There is a huge difference.
Vegans lifestyle destroys the environment!!Laughing at U
Mar 3, 2002 9:21 AM
And where exactly do you think all the chemicals end up which are used to grow those lovely vegetables??? You think they just majically disappear into the "Cosmic" Universe?

More pollution is introduced into the environment from plant fertilizers and pesticides than any cow, pig, goat, chicken or turkey farmer ever introduced. Go do some research on how many millions of tons, millions of metric tons of fertilizers and pesticides and growth formulas plant farmers spread each year and come back and tell me your Vegan lifestyle doesn't destroy the environment. Do it after you put down that Tofu burger though.
Vegans lifestyle destroys the environment!!cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:31 AM
I only eat organic fruits and vegetables. Sure it might cost me more at the store, but I am assured they are not touched by harmfil carcinigins.
and what do you think they feed meat animalssalmonwheel
Mar 3, 2002 11:48 AM
Most meat animals are fed from food grown on, you guessed it, farmed fields. The agricultural industry has proven to have an extremely high environmental cost. Does this mean we should all switch back to hunting an gathering, no, that would be much worse and most of us would starve to death pretty quickly. Our mere existence is environmentally destructive, no matter what we do. We can, however, manage our resources in such a away as to minimize the damage or at least maximize the potential for recovery, this has been going on, look up forestry practices of the 50's and 60's versus today. In ecology there is something known as the 10% rule of thumb. When you move from one level of the food web to the next only 10% of the biomass moves forward, therfore a pound of meat requires more resources than a pound of grain. There is no wild, hunted meat industry in the industrial world that I know of (fishing excluded, but there is a whole other set of problems to deal with there).

I find cosmo's posts annoying and a bit childish, but the responses of sound bite justifications are equally annoying, and much more depressing. I'm not sure of the best way to balance freedom of choice with environmental responsibility, but I'm pretty sure that justifying everything we do as our right, and dismissing any disapproval of our actions as childish is not the best approach. I also don't think that denying that we, as a society, need to exploit resources to survive is very productive either. At least cosmo cares about someting besides justifying his fat and happy lifestyle. Although his accusatory, divisive tone is somewhat counter productive.

Boycotting Trek because they gave the president a bike is ridiculous, should I boycott the spelling bee at my daughters school because the national winner gets to go to the White House.

I think the discussions on this topic that have dominated the board recently area a sad documentary of what's going on in our society. Thought and open discussion seem to have been replaced by justification and simplistic condemnation. Every person that questions how our actions affect the environment is not an adolescent tree hugger just as every person driving an SUV is not an environmental Ogre trying to wipe cyclists from the nation's roadways. I personally have contributed to more trees being cut down than I've hugged, but I've also contributed to the decision not to log in some sensitive areas.

Oh, and by the way, I have done the research.
and what do you think they feed meat animalscosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 11:54 AM
I agree with your statements about farm animals.
Gluttony destroys the environment!!wsexson
Mar 3, 2002 12:36 PM
Huge amounts of wetlands are also polluted from cow, pig, and chicken farms. Much of the wheat, corn, and soy grown in the USA is used to feed livestock.

I am not a vegetarian, and I LOVE to eat meat. Unfortunately, the amount of animal based protein in the "western" diet and the farming methods used to produce it are both detrimental to human health.
Gluttony destroys the environment!!cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 12:42 PM
It is about time some of the friends of the environment started showing up.
Gluttony destroys the environment!!wsexson
Mar 3, 2002 1:18 PM
Please don't. I don't appreciate support from a troll.
Gluttony destroys the environment!!cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 1:26 PM
Actually there were a lot of things that you said that were important for people to know. I do support you. I am not a troll. I just posted these discussions. I didn't troll them. They grew with people either supporting it or being angered by it. That doesn't make me a troll. I am not going through other discussions and making good points.
Learn to spell "vegetarian" then (nm)tt
Mar 3, 2002 10:24 AM
Learn to spell "vegetarian" then (nm)cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 11:23 AM
Typo. Sorry, my mistake.
I'm an evil Republican - bwahahahaha!McAndrus
Mar 3, 2002 8:54 AM
Man, am I going to regret this post. But sometimes I just have to speak.

Paul has an excellent point that all Republicans are not evil. In fact, I don't personally know any Republicans I would describe as evil. First, you have to define evil and then decide to whom it applies.

Let's name a few, Hitler, Bin Laden, Stalin .... That's pretty select company. So, Republicans are equivalent to Hitler, Bin Laden, and Stalin? Wow, that's a pretty out there point of few, I think.

For instance, as a Republican I think you can guess that I'm not a Clinton fan. But you know what? I don't think the guy is evil - he's just wrong, that's all.

And, where is it written that Republicans are filth producing, pollution loving, garbage swilling pigs?

Here's a fact to consider. I have a wife and two daughters. I had a father. I have a mother and two sisters. I have three nieces, three nephews, one sister-in-law, two brother-in-law, and a mother and father-in-law. I love every damn one of them (pardon my French) and the last thing I would ever do is knowingly let them be harmed from any source: emphysema causing air, cancer causing water, marauding SUVs, or environmentalists on bicycles.

The difference between an average Republican and an average Democrat on a topic like clean air is how to get there: not that you should get there. The Democrat says laws and regulations, the Republican says markets and economic incentives. Why that difference? Because as a Republican I feel that people respond better to carrots than to sticks.

Eugene, please be a little more careful (or at least discreet) about throwing labels like evil around. You'll find that people respect your opinion more when it is based on facts.
I'm an evil Republican - bwahahahaha!cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:03 AM
Just look at their evil enviromental policies that are all about big business and big oil. It will change your mind.
To a fellow evil RepublicanPaulCL
Mar 3, 2002 5:47 PM
McAndrus...you hit the nail on the head. I can tell that you are a right thinking man. It's not the goal, it's the road toward the goal that is different.

But that comment about Clinton...maybe HE's not evil...but Mrs. Clinton...I dunno.....I gotta think on that one.....Paul
To a fellow evil Republicancosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 5:56 PM
I will have to agree with you on the Mrs. Clinton statement. She sticks her finger up in the air to see which way the wind is blowing. She is too afraid to make the tough choices that the left counts on her to make. She isn't a friend of the environment. She lies about her record.
Now you sound like a dangerous illuminated prophet...tempeteKerouak
Mar 3, 2002 6:28 AM
Look, you don't get the point.

You sound like a puppet full of other people's idea. This is not to insult you. Your text already mentions you have readied your mechanism against insults or opposition:
-you mention yo are not alone ("my friends and I...")
-"Truth hurts" (hurts other, but not you...) and "hurt pride" is nothing...

You sound like a dangerous person. You sound like people who, from the flip of the coin could have been with KKK, or Al Kahida, but only happened to choose a side that, out of your own control (you have absolutely no glory on this) is more moraly acceptable.

You are an extremist nevertheless, and a dangerous person for that. You are confused. I will not participate in your posts if you don't show more intelligence. What you wrote there is simply full of confusion. You should actually talk FOR REAL with someone, try to compare your perception of reality with a person you can really physically meet. And make yourself ready to accept their feed-back, maybe not their ideas and opinion (everyone is entitled to his/her own), but just be open about the way you interact with others.

Maybe a professionnal, like a psychologist or a good friend you have not seen for a while? Family?

Thank you for your attention.
Now you sound like a dangerous illuminated prophet...cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 8:27 AM
So you wish to ingnore environmental problems with your calling me names like extrememist and a terrorist? I feel sad for how you think. Maybe it is you who needs help. I care about all mankind, even those who don't see the ways of their evils.
TREK bashingLaughing at U
Mar 3, 2002 8:16 AM
How do you know Trek pays their employees pennies? Exactly what info do you have to support this contention and your other nonsensical BS? Idiots like you are all the same. You babble on and on about this and about that, but you never bother to support any of your statements with facts. Just more useless drivel and somehow you believe that if you spew your drivel enough people will buy into it. Only dumb people will, not someone who thinks. Take your trek is evil conspiracy theory along with your bogus and hypocritical environmental BS elsewhere. Your ridiculous posts should appear in Romper Room not roadbikereview.

By the way, your great state of Californina and all you environmentally conscious citizens are the biggest reason why the Snake River ecology has been decimated over the past two decades. But you are all so environmentally conscious aren't you? How about how every Californian drives their own car rather than developing and taking public transportation? Your state does more to promote air pollution, acid rain and destruction of the environment on a per capita basis than any state in history, but you all care so much about the environment right??? What a load of crap. You dump your environmental problems on other states like Nevada and oregon and then claim you care so much about Mother earth. Now go put your head back in the sand and listen to more lies told to you by your hypocritical tree hugging mommy and daddy.
TREK bashingcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 8:29 AM
Do you wish to supprt your FACT that every Californian drives their own car? I don't. My friends don't. We all know that cars are a leading cause of global warming. We won't be laughing when we drowning after the glaciers melt.
TREK bashingLaughing at U
Mar 3, 2002 8:38 AM
Would you like some facts on air pollution pewr capita mr. Emvironmentalist? Go to the WHO website. If you know as much about the environment as you claim you'll be very faimiliar with their website. Take a look at the figures as to how many cars are owned per how many people occupy the state.

Where are all your bullshit facts on Trek paying their employees pennies??? Answer the question moron and then I'll answer yours!! I can't wait to see your BS response to this!
TREK bashingcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 8:50 AM
Give me time, and quit getting so defensive. I am asking for a PEACEFUL discussion here. I don't want to fight. Trek afterall is a factory, and I am sure the pay the minimum to stuff bicycles in boxes in their warehouses. I will find the facts and get back to you. Remember, this is a PEACEFUL discussion.
Peace,
Eugene
TREK bashingLaughing at U
Mar 3, 2002 8:59 AM
you won't find anything, you're full of crap. All hot air and no substance like most uninformed liberals.
TREK bashingcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:04 AM
Uninformed liberal? You won't be laughing when the ozone is depleted.
TREK bashingLaughing at U
Mar 3, 2002 9:23 AM
You won't be laughing either. Californians are in part largely responsible for current ozone problems due to their greedy lifestyle. That's your great state doing that, the one full of all the friends of the environment?? LOL
TREK bashingcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:33 AM
At least you admit there is a problem. Thank you. We are making progress. Please don't include me and my environmentally friendly friends in the statement all Californians.
TREK bashingwsexson
Mar 3, 2002 12:55 PM
Despite our reputation in the rest of the country, most Californians are not environmentalists and don't claim to be. Also, California is a very large and diverse state. There is a big difference between the typical Angeleno and someone who lives in rural northern California.

San Diego, LA, and the SF bay area create lots of ozone and hyrdocarbon pollution. The central valley produces lots of fertilizer and pesticide pollution. Since most of our electricity is produced from nuclear and natural gas, we don't send all that much acid rain to the east.
TREK bashingcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 1:31 PM
We share a lot of the same views wsexson. I am glad you have come aboard for this discussion. I do have to disagree with you about California not being a leader in envrionmentalism.
END THIS DRIVELsctri
Mar 9, 2002 10:14 AM
Honestly now folks, lets step back and take a look at what is going on here. I will make the assumption that everyone on this site loves bicycles, biking, bike riding, whatever, and most of us like to do this outside, in the outdoors, and therefore have an interest in seeing our enviroment clean. I think that most of us should follow this reasoning, except the resident troll who generally ignores such petty matter as logic, reasoning, or fact. We all care about the enviroment but in differnt ways, and that should be respected. However, this really has gone on long enough. LET THIS DIE. LET THIS THREAD GO. Let the little wiener have his last word and then DON'T REPLY ANY LONGER.

We either justifying this mis-informed man point, or allowing him to provoke us with his perhaps intentionally ridiculous statments
Gregg, Please move this to "Non-Cycling" board. (NFM)Dave Hickey
Mar 3, 2002 5:18 AM
Trekk might help GWjagiger
Mar 3, 2002 6:51 AM
If ol'GW actually got on the Trek & rode around, he might get more in touch with the environment & get in better shape too!! Not such a bad deal!
You d@mn Californians!Rusty McNasty
Mar 3, 2002 6:53 AM
Hey, wake up, buddy! You people in California electricity, but you don't want the power plants there? Screw you!! Hey, we don't want YOUR d@mn pollution!! Stop exporting your problems to the rest of the d@mn country!! And, while you are at it, get your heads out of your @$$e$!!!!
You d@mn Californians!cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 8:32 AM
You are right. We don't need anymore coal producing powerplants to feed pollution to the rest of the country. We need windmills. We need solar power panels. We don't need to produce more smoke and nuclear waste. If we succeed you won't feel that way about California.
OverboardDrPete
Mar 3, 2002 7:31 AM
OK, this is just getting excessive. Let me get this straight--You want everyone on bikes, and Lance and Trek have gotten more people on bikes in the last 4-5 years than anyone else in the US, and now you want to boycott them because of a gesture of gratitude and a move that in my opinion publically encourages cycling just because you don't like Bush's environmental policies? I understand that you care about the environment and all, but your boycott-happy attitude is making it increasingly apparent to me that you're a high school or college student from an affluent background who's looking for a cause, whether there's one there or not.

This is the real world, one of compromise and choosing your battles. Be happy that Trek and Lance got some publicity and a chance to encourage cycling, and leave them out of your problems with Bush's policies. The leap from Bush to Trek is a big one, and is really quite ridiculous. I think Lance and Trek have been a tremendous positive influence to get people on their bikes, significantly more so than your rants on this forum.
Overboardcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 8:35 AM
I don't have a problem with Trek promoting cycling as an alternative transportation to the cumbustible engine. However, I don't think they should be donating their products to someone with the worst track record of environmentalism there is. Take for example HOUSTON. One of the most polluted cities in the United States.
OverboardDrPete
Mar 3, 2002 8:43 AM
And by not donating a bicycle and explaining this to Mr. Bush, we can fix everything that's wrong with the world? Christ, man, Trek isn't supporting Bush's policies by giving him a bike. It's a PR move for Trek and for cycling. By popularizing bikes Trek is doing more to keep people out of their cars than making asses of themselves and going off on a "you can't have a bike because..." tirade. Trek's promotion of cycling and Bush's environmental policies are mutually exclusive, at least to everyone but you. If you want to change Bush's policies, remember that the only way to change his track record is to focus on the future and not deny the man a free bike because of his policies.
Overboardcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 8:53 AM
PR is PR. Doesn't make it right. Doesn't make it positive for environmental policy change. If they wanted to do the right thing, they would have challenged the damage that his policies are doing the to environment.
So what?DrPete
Mar 3, 2002 8:59 AM
No, it didn't do anything for environmental policy. Does it need to? By that rationale, you should stop posting because YOU'RE NOT CONVINCING ANYONE OF ANYTHING BY MAKING IRRATIONAL STATEMENTS WITHOUT EVIDENCE.
So what?cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:06 AM
Evidence? Read any paper. You will find facts to support my case for global warming.
Case in pointDrPete
Mar 3, 2002 9:11 AM
That it exists? Of course. That it's a result of Mr. Bush's policies, and that the biggest bike manufacturer is a co-conspirator in this plot to destroy the planet? Hm, don't think so. The argument isn't whether global warming exists, but whether Trek is responsible. Do you even remember what you're arguing about?
Case in pointcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:14 AM
I never accused Trek of destroying the environment. I said they dropped the ball to make a statement, and I am calling them on it. I won't be buying Trek products.
Has Bush hurt the environment more than Al Gore?Laughing at U
Mar 3, 2002 8:03 AM
Gore had both highly toxic zinc and copper mining operations done on his personal property in Tennessee which netted him millions of dollars. His little endeavor here thoroughly polluted large parts of the local watersupply adjacent to his property where this mining took place.

Funny how all the treehuggers have selective memory when it comes to the environment. And how about Slick Willie himself. When he was the governor of Arkansas they had perhaps the worst pollution record of any state in US history at that time. His record on the enviroment in Arkansas was abissmal and it wasn't much better in Washington although the liberal media would like to have you believe it was.
Has Bush hurt the environment more than Al Gore?firstrax
Mar 3, 2002 8:14 AM
lets not forget where the Gore family fortune came from. Tabacco farming.
Has Bush hurt the environment more than Al Gore?cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 8:37 AM
Al Gore has a perfect environmental record. Quit posting lies about a hero in the area of environmentalism. Read Earth In The Balance by Al Gore sometime if you doubt this.
AlGore invented the environment, didn't he??MVN
Mar 3, 2002 8:44 AM
Yeah, that's right, he invented the environment along with the internet!!! In fact they were done at the same time!!! Get a life.
AlGore invented the environment, didn't he??cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 8:57 AM
You obviously listen to Rush LimBLOW who took the internet comments totally out of text. On that note, what right does RUSH LimBLOW have, a college drop out, making irresponsible statements the environment? It is people like him who brainwash you REPBUBLICANS.
Vote GREEN PARTY, and if there isn't a GREEN PARTY candidate, VOTE DEMOCRAT.
Eugene Kaudill
Al Gore has a perfect environmental record????Laughing at U
Mar 3, 2002 9:14 AM
Bullshit. Go check out all the info on the copper and zinc strip mining he had done on his own property in Tennessee. he completely ruined adjacent water supplies to his property from chemical runoff. This is well documented and available for view at several websites. Go do some research moron and read before opening your mouth. Al Gore is exactly like most left wing liberals and most tree hugging Californians. When it comes to the environment they talk a real good game but if you look at their own personal actions, they care very little about it.

Writing a book for self serving political means does nort make up for destroying local Tennessee ground water supplies.

Wake up and smell the coffee!
Al Gore has a perfect environmental record????cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:21 AM
Al Gore is a saint to Mother Earth. The election was stolen from him. We would be having a better economy right now. Our environmental policies would be far more correct with the needs of mankind had he been given what was his.
Al Gore is a piece of shitLaughing at U
Mar 3, 2002 9:33 AM
The stock market and the economy started to tank 1 full year before the Bush election, but you already know this right?

recent recounts of the uncounted ballots in FL have confirmed that Bush would have won anyway, you knew this also right, or did you just accidently forget this fact too?

What exactly did Al Gore ever do to promeote a healthy economy, other than that ridiculous NAFTA bill which has actually hurt american manufacturing, please name for me one or two of the great economic policies Al Gore ever helped install during his tenure as VP??? Can't wait for your BS, no information post to that as well.

Guys like you are a joke, you have a million propositions as to how things would be better yada yada yada but absolutely ZERO info to actually back up your deluded thoiught. I'm heading to another thread now. No more use wasting time with the clueless such as yourself.

Here's another novel idea, by the next election, try to teach all your "intelligent" liberal friends how to properly punch a butterfly ballot. You know which type of ballot I'm talking about, the same kind that 40 out of 40 1st graders had no problem filling out accurately 1 month after the election after they were given 30 seconds of instructions by their elementary school teacher.

Adios, and don't believe the hype or Gores lies!

Actions speak louder than words and Gores actions are those of a self serving greedy polluter who made millions while polluting local Tenn water supplies and all the books he writes and all the political self serving speeches he makes can't change his TRUE actions and hamr on the environment.
Al Gore is a piece of shitfirstrax
Mar 3, 2002 9:37 AM
Theres a real good reason the Democracts did not anounce the results of their independent audit of the ballots.
Al Gore is a piece of shitcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:39 AM
Gore would have been more environmentally friendly than Bush. I am sticking to that. I am not going to debate you about the economy. Please tell me though what Bush is doing to improve it. The only way to improve it would be to eliminate the capitalist state that we live in and have more government take care of the needs of people.
Al Gore is a piece of shitfirstrax
Mar 3, 2002 9:50 AM
Our government was not created to take care of the needs of the people. People came here to get away from that kind of governing. Our government was created to give people the freedom to take care of their own needs their own way. (insert God bless america theme)
As for Bush improving the economy, its not his problem, its ours. Were the ones who can improve it. Stop buying cars and homes you cant afford. Stop maxing out credit cards. Work harder. Complain less. When you poke your eye out with a screwdriver, its your own damn fault. Dont sue the manufacturer.
Al Gore is a Saintcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:55 AM
Our government was not created to take care of the needs of the people.

You see there is the fault of our government. You even claimed it in your post.
Al Gore has a perfect environmental record????firstrax
Mar 3, 2002 9:35 AM
Exactly what kind of control does a president have over the economy?
Al Gore has a perfect environmental record????cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:40 AM
He creates a budget and introduces economic packages.
WOW you are fujucked up!Jonathan
Mar 3, 2002 10:47 AM
Lemme guess...UC Berkeley? Bennington? Wesleyan?

I too am a college student at a fairly liberal university. Beaten over the head every day with Communist BS. I however, have enough knowledge of history and economic principles to let me ignore the lies. Your thoughts are absolutely indefensible, sorry. You need to expand your horizons a bit, listen to some different points of view, and get some background! Going through life with partisan blinders on makes you a tool as well, really no different than some corporate desk jockey.
WOW you are fujucked up!cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 11:27 AM
Don't you see how our greed for oil makes people from all over hate us? Why do you think we were attacked on 9-11. They hate us because we feel like we have a right to as much of their oil. It is the evil called capitalism. It could have been avoided. Of course, they were getting even too for Daddy Bush's war of 1992. That war too was about oil. It is evil. It causes our people to be evil, and it causes more pollution than is necessary. Now we can do something about it. Stop driving and start riding.
WOW you are fujucked up!Jonathan
Mar 3, 2002 11:46 AM
"They hate us because we feel like we have a right to as much of their oil"

What the hell are they going to with it if they dont sell it? The only reason the Middle East has an economy is because we buy thier oil. Sand dont go for much in the commodities markets......

You want alternative energy right? Guess who is doing all the research on it? BIG BUSINESS!!! GM has spent nearly TWO BILLION of its OWN MONEY in the last decade on electic car research. Oil companies are very interested in alternative energy. Oil is dirty and expensive, and once their is a better, cheaper way, in say 20 years, it will go away.

Once again you show your lack of background and thoughtful consideration of the issues, YOU MASSIVE TOOL. Just a tool for a different cause........
WOW you are fujucked up!cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 11:57 AM
GM? Are you kidding? They buy any technology that threatens their business and shelf it. There have been so many ideas that could be much more environmentally friendly and still be able to move America. The oil and car companies buy this technology and shelf it. That is why we need to get rid of our capitalistic society, and allow the government to make more responsible decisions.
its like cancercosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 11:59 AM
You know it is like the pharmecutical companies. Once they find the cure, they shelf it. That way they stay in business. If they cure it, then they lose a vital source of income. Cancer is vital in a capitalistic society in that it keeps the rich rich. The poor just die from the cancer that eats up their bodies.
For the sake of discussion......Jonathan
Mar 3, 2002 12:27 PM
...how do we eliminate capitalism?

CHINA even has a free-market economy.......

You have this way of ignoring the points I make and saying what you were going to say anyway.

I am aware that GM bought and shut down quite a few trolley lines in major cities in the 40's. What other technologies have they "shelved"? Emissions have fallen 90% since 1973. A 2002 Camry emits less at 70 mph than a 1965 Mustang parked in a garage. SPECIFIC EXAMPLES PLEASE.
For the sake of discussion......cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 12:43 PM
A free market economy is illegal in China. It works in Cuba as well.
I asked you for......Jonathan
Mar 3, 2002 12:55 PM
......SPECIFIC EXAMPLES of technologies auto companies have shelved. Where are they?

Economic freedom has been the official policy of the Chinese government since about 1980 for certian regions, called Special Economic Zones (SEZ's). It now applies everywhere. You are just flat wrong about that. Asian history and politics is one of my fields of study.

You have failed to even come up with the most rudimentary requirements for a discussion, I am done with you. Goodbye.
I asked you for......cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 1:35 PM
You must give me time. These items are shelved. I don't keep records of them. I just know of them. I will have to do some research and get back to you on it. I will get back to you. Would you like examples by e mail or on the board?
Al Gore is a piece of shitLaughing at U
Mar 3, 2002 9:36 AM
The stock market and the economy started to tank 1 full year before the Bush election, but you already know this right?

recent recounts of the uncounted ballots in FL have confirmed that Bush would have won anyway, you knew this also right, or did you just accidently forget this fact too?

What exactly did Al Gore ever do to promeote a healthy economy, other than that ridiculous NAFTA bill which has actually hurt american manufacturing, please name for me one or two of the great economic policies Al Gore ever helped install during his tenure as VP??? Can't wait for your BS, no information post to that as well.

Guys like you are a joke, you have a million propositions as to how things would be better yada yada yada but absolutely ZERO info to actually back up your deluded thoiught. I'm heading to another thread now. No more use wasting time with the clueless such as yourself.

Here's another novel idea, by the next election, try to teach all your "intelligent" liberal friends how to properly punch a butterfly ballot. You know which type of ballot I'm talking about, the same kind that 40 out of 40 1st graders had no problem filling out accurately 1 month after the election after they were given 30 seconds of instructions by their elementary school teacher.

Adios, and don't believe the hype or Gores lies!

Actions speak louder than words and Gores actions are those of a self serving greedy polluter who made millions while polluting local Tenn water supplies and all the books he writes and all the political self serving speeches he makes can't change his TRUE actions and hamr on the environment.
Al Gore is a Saintcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:42 AM
Why did you post this twice?
re: Boycott TREKDavid Feldman
Mar 3, 2002 8:20 AM
No, no, no! Look, I don't like Bush. Didn't vote for him, really think his dad's pals bought and stole the election for him, etc. But getting his dumb ass on a bike, turning him into a bikie could be a great and wonderful thing; consciousnesses can be changed, I really believe this. So this should be considered really a great and far-sighted public service by both LA and Trek, I mean it! Don't boycott Trek, find an excuse to buy something of theirs.
re: Boycott TREKcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 8:38 AM
David,
It obviously hasn't had this effect.
Eugene Kaudill
re: Boycott TREKLaughing at U
Mar 3, 2002 8:23 AM
How do you know Trek pays their employees pennies? Exactly what info do you have to support this contention and your other nonsensical BS? Idiots like you are all the same. You babble on and on about this and about that, but you never bother to support any of your statements with facts. Just more useless drivel and somehow you believe that if you spew your drivel enough people will buy into it. Only dumb people will, not someone who thinks. Take your trek is evil conspiracy theory along with your bogus and hypocritical environmental BS elsewhere. Your ridiculous posts should appear in Romper Room not roadbikereview.
By the way, your great state of Californina and all you environmentally conscious citizens are the biggest reason why the Snake River ecology has been decimated over the past two decades. But you are all so environmentally conscious aren't you? How about how every Californian drives their own car rather than developing and taking public transportation? Your state does more to promote air pollution, acid rain and destruction of the environment on a per capita basis than any state in history, but you all care so much about the environment right??? What a load of crap. You dump your environmental problems on other states like Nevada and oregon and then claim you care so much about Mother earth. Now go put your head back in the sand and listen to more lies told to you by your hypocritical tree hugging mommy and daddy.
re: Boycott TREKLaughing at U
Mar 3, 2002 8:33 AM
I also apologize for the typo. The above comment should have been "Colorado" River ecology, not Snake River being destroyed by your fellow Californians greed for expansion, real estate acquisition and more money at the cost of the environment!!
re: Boycott TREKcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 8:40 AM
California has more environmental friends than any other state in the union. You can blame former govornor Pete Wilson for that mess. We have a good govornor now.
re: Boycott TREKLaughing at U
Mar 3, 2002 9:00 AM
Exactly where are all these environmental Californian friends of yours Cosmeticallymessedup? Are they the Californians who flock to restaurants in droves to eat shark fin soup so that the rest of the shark can be discarded alive by Jap fisherman? Are they the Californians who have destroyed most of the Napa Valleys natural habitat so that they could farm grapes for wine production? Are they the Californians who have singlehandidly destroyed much of the Colorado River ecology because of their excessive lifestyle and pressure they have put on that river with excessive water consumption as a result of their own greed? Is this the same group of Californians who have the San Fernando and San Gabriel valleys so filled with excessive pollution from their car exhaust that you can't even see the San Gabriel mountains on most days?? Greenhouse effect, take a guess where a lot of that is coming from buddy, your great of California!!

Please explain to me where all these friends of the environment are pal, because from where I sit I see a bunch of left coast jackasses who when it comes to the environment talk a real good game but when it actually comes to real action they are laughable. All talk, very little action. Are your environmentally friendly Californians the ones who have slaughtered mountian lions by the hundreds because you expanded your homes into the mountain lions home range and then didn't like the fact that the lions started showing up in your back yards?

Your states record on the environment is horrible and if your eyes were even slightly open you'd know it. California is easily one of the most greedy and polluting states in the country as a whole. I think we should all be boycotting you and your homestate friends.
re: Boycott TREKcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:08 AM
You may start in my home of San Francisco to find these friends I speak of. They are all over.
re: Boycott TREKLaughing at U
Mar 3, 2002 9:02 AM
Exactly where are all these environmental Californian friends of yours Cosmeticallymessedup? Are they the Californians who flock to restaurants in droves to eat shark fin soup so that the rest of the shark can be discarded alive by Jap fisherman? Are they the Californians who have destroyed most of the Napa Valleys natural habitat so that they could farm grapes for wine production? Are they the Californians who have singlehandidly destroyed much of the Colorado River ecology because of their excessive lifestyle and pressure they have put on that river with excessive water consumption as a result of their own greed? Is this the same group of Californians who have the San Fernando and San Gabriel valleys so filled with excessive pollution from their car exhaust that you can't even see the San Gabriel mountains on most days?? Greenhouse effect, take a guess where a lot of that is coming from buddy, your great of California!!

Please explain to me where all these friends of the environment are pal, because from where I sit I see a bunch of left coast jackasses who when it comes to the environment talk a real good game but when it actually comes to real action they are laughable. All talk, very little action. Are your environmentally friendly Californians the ones who have slaughtered mountian lions by the hundreds because you expanded your homes into the mountain lions home range and then didn't like the fact that the lions started showing up in your back yards?

Your states record on the environment is horrible and if your eyes were even slightly open you'd know it. California is easily one of the most greedy and polluting states in the country as a whole. I think we should all be boycotting you and your homestate friends.
re: Boycott TREKwsexson
Mar 4, 2002 12:14 PM
California has more of everything than any other state. More environmentalists, more polluters, more suburban sprawl, more cows, more bicycles, more SUVs.

Gray Davis is a sad excuse for a Democrat. I wish someone with some stones were running against him in the primary tomorrow.
What is it about Gray Davis you dislike?cosmicallyconscience
Mar 4, 2002 12:39 PM
I think he has done a great job. What is it about him you dislike?
re: Boycott TREKDavid Feldman
Mar 3, 2002 8:36 AM
An addenda: Picture this--a couple of years from now, the now bike-happy Prez W is riding with his buddy Lance along a lonely farm road in Texas being of course discreetly shadowed by a black Suburban full of Secret Service. Local yokel decides to do some funnin' with the boys in the faygit biker outfits--as soon as Bubba leans out the window with the empty beer bottle in hand, the SS car swoops around, cuts him off, takes him off for questioning at a Federal facility. Soon after this the rumor will get around Texas "Hey, there's Feds protecting bike riders, find somebody else to harass!"
Now there's progress!DrPete
Mar 3, 2002 9:01 AM
Drivers would be so much nicer to cyclists if they fear retribution from "the man." Can Lance and George come ride in Maryland for a while?

Thanks for bringing some humor to this enormous thread!
Now there's progress!cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:11 AM
Dr. Pete, Global Warming IS NO LAUGHING MATTER. The attempt at humor is accepted, but remember if we don't change our ways now, it might be too late later.
Another California hot tubber's kid gone astray.nmSTEELYeyed
Mar 3, 2002 8:29 AM
Another California hot tubber's kid gone astray.nmcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 8:42 AM
That is a weak attack on my character and the need for true environmental policy in this country.
Liberals Like You...RollinFast
Mar 3, 2002 9:28 AM
Liberals like you need to take up these small causes(that have no real substance)to make yourselves feel good about your meaningless lives. You would rather take the food off a man's table for his family in support of saving a silly bird who can't adapt to its changing environment. I personally feel you people think too much and do little to physically help your causes. Unfortunately, people suffer because you push spineless politicians into believeing your crap.
Liberals Like You...cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:35 AM
Why should man have no limits as to what is his? I don't think we would want the apes taking over our habitat, do we? We have no right to take over the habitat and kill out these animals. Animal rights is important, or we are going to lose so many of these precious creatures.
re: Boycott TREKfirstrax
Mar 3, 2002 9:30 AM
O.K let me get this straight. You want more people on bikes. Right? And less people in cars? You blame G.W. for our enviorment problems.
Well, it seems Trek giving G.W. a bike is a step in the right direction. Right? Is that not a good thing?
re: Boycott TREKcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:37 AM
You could look at it at like that, but you also need to see that they should have made a statement about the environment when Lance Armstrong presented the Trek to the President.
Morning Eugene, I see that you were up early again.GW
Mar 3, 2002 9:48 AM
What's wrong, can't sleep? Your first couple posts were kinda amusing but you've overplayed your hand. It's pretty apparent that you're just looking for attention. You better stop teasing the other kids and behave or the babysitter will tell your parents what you've been up to.
Morning Eugene, I see that you were up early again.cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 9:56 AM
This isn't something to laugh at GW. This is a serious subject that I am discussing with other members of this forum. Why is that so hard to believe? Do you not normally see seriousness in this forum?
Behave Eugene or we will have to send you to your roomGW
Mar 3, 2002 10:20 AM
for a time out.
Behave Eugene or we will have to send you to your roomcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 11:29 AM
Please realize the seriousness of my post. There is a deep rooted reason for these post. They are based on scientific facts. All I am asking is to quit driving and riding your bikes more for the environment. You already love riding, so give up your cars for something you love.
Go to your room Eugene. Now! I'm counting to ten and if you'reGW
Mar 3, 2002 12:15 PM
not there before I finish.....
Go to your room Eugene. Now! I'm counting to ten and if you'recosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 12:44 PM
Finish what?
This has got to be the fastest moving thread ever.firstrax
Mar 3, 2002 10:05 AM
And it still didn't make the hot topic listBianchiAmber
Mar 3, 2002 10:10 AM
This has got to be the fastest moving thread ever.cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 11:31 AM
That is because it is the most serious thread discussed on these boards.
What is up with all the freaks and this board?BianchiAmber
Mar 3, 2002 10:05 AM
I agree in boycotting Trek, but for much difference reasons. I had an issue with Trek and their warranty policy on an OCLV carbon frame. Seriously, what is up with this board?
What is up with all the freaks and this board?firstrax
Mar 3, 2002 10:09 AM
O.K. Now thats worthy of a boycot. Not standing behind your product after someone thinks enough of it to drop a couple grand is just sleezy. Liberals take note, this is how to start a boycot.
BianchiAmber, did it ever get resolved?
What is up with all the freaks and this board?BianchiAmber
Mar 3, 2002 10:12 AM
No, my LBS didn't go to bat for me either. The frame was blown over by a strong wind, and it hit the ground rather hard. Shortly after, I found a flaw in the carbon around the bottom bracket area. Trek claimed it wasn't their fault.
What is up with all the freaks and this board?firstrax
Mar 3, 2002 10:18 AM
Did they at least offer to repair it for a fee?
What is up with all the freaks and this board?BianchiAmber
Mar 3, 2002 10:23 AM
No, but to be fair it took a little drop of a about 3-4 feet. Still, that frame should have been stronger than that. I had to purchase a new frame and pay the shop to do the installation of the components.
What is up with all the freaks and this board?firstrax
Mar 3, 2002 10:28 AM
Just imagine what would have happened if you crashed. Look into steel or ti bikes next time.
What is up with all the freaks and this board?BianchiAmber
Mar 3, 2002 10:33 AM
I haven't had any problems with the replacement. I don't ride it too often though. I am a Bianchi girl. The celeste paint with the yellow graphics of the EV2 frame is beautiful. Bianchi stands behind their warranties as well. I also have a new bike shop. It isn't as close, but they do take care of me. I have never ridden ti. I would be interested in the Bianchi Reparto Corse Ti frame. I know at one time it was made by Litespeed.
What is up with all the freaks and this board?firstrax
Mar 3, 2002 10:35 AM
Ahh. You already have another fine, reliable and cool as all hell looking bike.
What is up with all the freaks and this board?BianchiAmber
Mar 3, 2002 11:06 AM
Would you expect anything less of me?
This post is about environmental policy not Trek warranty policycosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 11:35 AM
Let's stick to the issue please.
Thank you,
Eugene
And this is a CYCLING FORUM - lets try to stick to that...Jekyll
Mar 3, 2002 9:28 PM
And this is a CYCLING FORUM - lets try to stick to that...cosmicallyconscience
Mar 4, 2002 4:55 AM
TREK is a bicycle company. My post was about TREK. Therefore, why doesn't it qualify? Some of you don't realize what you are saying.
What is up with all the freaks and this board?firstrax
Mar 3, 2002 10:10 AM
O.K. Now thats worthy of a boycot. Not standing behind your product after someone thinks enough of it to drop a couple grand is just sleezy. Liberals take note, this is how to start a boycot.
BianchiAmber, did it ever get resolved?
What is up with all the freaks and this board?cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 11:32 AM
Why does caring about the environment justifys calling me a freak?
Reductio ad Absudum, Eugeneterry b
Mar 3, 2002 10:19 AM
It's a term you should look up. Get familiar with. Might even want to use it instead of "cosmicallyconscience." I was going to suggest "Sophistry" as well, but I don't think your arguments are that subtle.

Having read your responses to all the others, I've drawn the following conclusions about you:

1- you live in a house that is passive solar, with no electricity or running water since the production of all those luxuries pollutes.
2- you only wear clothing made by Americans being paid a reasonable wage for their labor. Clothing made from natural materials grown without pesticides or fertilizer. 100% organic cotton cycling shorts made in the USA for example.
3- you don't drive or ride in a gas combustion automobile of any type at any time. I presume this would mean you'd decline a ride to the hospital in an ambulance in the event of a serious accident. Forget the LifeGuard helicopter.
4- your organic meals are not packaged in any way, you don't bring them home via paper or plastics.
5- you don't read books or periodicals unless they produced on 100% recycled paper or paper derived from trees grown on dedicated tree farms. Ditto for toilet paper, Kleenex.
6- No television, radio, CDs, electronic devices, etc. Need electricity, use plastics, contain harmful materials. (Makes me wonder how you're writing all this stuff, organic bio-computer?)
7- Your beloved bicycle contains no lubricants (olive oil?), plastics or metals (mining, smelting, paints.)

Bottom line is this - it's really romantic to make sweeping statements about SUVs, George W., the ozone etc. However, check out your own existence before becomming a zealot. The very fact that you have the ability to post your message here shows that you're part of the problem, not the solution. Get your own house in order before sharing your half-baked, sepcious arguments with the rest of the world.
Reductio ad Absudum, Eugenefirstrax
Mar 3, 2002 10:22 AM
He's an amish guy with a computer.
Reductio ad Absudum, EugeneBianchiAmber
Mar 3, 2002 10:29 AM
I am giving Terry B a standing ovation!
Can I Get An Amen!firstrax
Mar 3, 2002 10:37 AM
Can I Get An Amen!BianchiAmber
Mar 3, 2002 11:07 AM
Amen!
Amen! (nm)DrPete
Mar 3, 2002 11:12 AM
Reductio ad Absudum, EugeneDrPete
Mar 3, 2002 11:11 AM
Since this is a reply to Terry b, I'm not technically violating my boycott of this thread.

Well said.

OK, time to go ride. :)
No problemcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 11:45 AM
As much as I would like to say that I live in a solar powered house, the fact is that I don't. It is very costly to purchase solar powers. I do support the idea of governemnt facilities being solar powered. I also favor a mandate from the government that declares anyone making over $100,000 a year be forced to purchase solar panels for their dwelling and use them. This of course would be a tax deductable purchase. The benefits of such legislation would be enormous.

I wear all natural materials. I am a proponent of hemp. You can produce a lot of paper and clothing materials using hemp.

I don't use cars. Don't own one. I ride. That is the message I am trying to pass on to you.

My organic meals are purchased through and organic supermarket. The bags that I place the foods in are 100%recycleable.

I only use 100%recycled materials. I send junkmail back to the sender and asked to be removed from their list to save trees.

I do not own a television. I do own a laptop and radio.

I only used sythetic envrionmentally friendly lubricatns.

Therefore, you thought you were going to get me on these issues, but I cover them quite well.
No problemterry b
Mar 3, 2002 12:13 PM
Not trying to "get" you at all. I'm just drawing personal conclusions from the soapbox you've elected to adopt in this forum. And no, from your response I don't think you cover the points well at all. Solar power too expensive - live outside. I just saw a guy living in a tent along the bike path to Dog Beach in San Diego. Was that you? Then there's still the laptop problem - you're burning electricity living in a state that has the largest electricity problem of them all. Not to mention all those Malaysians putting your laptop together that would kill for the pennies those Trek workers make. Radio - ditto. Lots of fossil fuels going into that ear candy don't you think? Hemp - yea, those hemp workers are among the highest paid in the world. It's all organic right? Organic grocery? I'm betting they only use CF free refrigeration. And abaci to total up your order. Can't waste electricity.

Point is (again), you put your silly, unidimensional arguments on a cycling forum and expect to generate an intelligent discussion. Then, you counter people's responses with more silly platitudes. We're all part of the problem, and many of us are part of the solution too. Dumb solutions like recycling your SUV are just that, dumb. They're the product of linear thinking, thinking that cannot stand up to any scrutiny as we've just seen from your answer to my post. You're not pure because you wear hemp, eat fungi and ride your bike. You're just doing your part. What we (here) don't need is your preachy, sophmoric silliness.

By the way, I do own an SUV. Used it mostly last year to bring home xeriscape plants from the local nursery to repair the damage of 300 years of agriculture here in the middle Rio Grande valley. Might make the argument that my SUV is a means to an end? Would've been a huge challenge to bring home 2000 lbs. of plants on my bike.
No problemcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 12:46 PM
Your just making assumptions.
Let me make it simple for youterry b
Mar 3, 2002 2:35 PM
I'm making assumptions? You forfeited the expectation to be taken seriously the moment you plugged into the most overtaxed electrical grid in the nation and waxed hyperbolic about the two elements of the enviromental problem that happen to fit your obviously inconsistent lifestyle. Asking people to boycott companies and to recycle their transportation are not lightweight challenges - and unless you're a living example, you should expect nothing less the response you're getting here. Remember that old saw about rocks and glass houses?

If you're going to talk like a zealot, then walk like a zealot. You claim to ride your synthetically lubed bike to the organic grocery to purchase your hemp cycling shorts and yet you obviously do not choose to look beyond the face value of those trendy choices. Ever seen the runoff from 100 acres of organically fertilized fields? I do, every time it rains here and it dumps into the Rio Grande. Ever wonder how those clean veggies make it to Wild Oats? Take a walk behind the store on delivery day. You won't find ox carts.

The real problem here is that you're not that good at making an argument and you're really bad at responding to a retort. Actually though I think it's all about attention, isn't it?
Let me make it simple for youcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 2:50 PM
I really don't think you understand the products that Wild Oats sell. Second of all, just because I am from California, I don't speak for all Californians. I am only but a small voice trying to talk reason to people about the future of mankind. As of California, years of Pete Wilson ruined the state. The only attention that I want is for people to understand if they make changes in their lives and think about the environment, the world will be a better place.
Well thenterry b
Mar 3, 2002 3:18 PM
If you want to be (seriously) heard, think about how absurd your suggestions sound before you post them and if you still want to go ahead, put them on the Non-cycling Board where they belong. That's what it was created for.
Well thencosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 4:51 PM
Don't you think Noah was seen as absurd before he built the ark? Great thinkers put up with static from the majority. It is human nature.
No problemwsexson
Mar 3, 2002 1:14 PM
From what I was told by the "biased liberal media", California uses less electricity per capita than any state except Rhode Island.
No problemcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 1:37 PM
That just shows there are many environmentalist in the great state I live in.
What the hell does Reductio ad Absudum have to do with your postwsexson
Mar 3, 2002 1:09 PM
What the hell does Reductio ad Absudum have to do with your postcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 1:39 PM
wsexson, we should get together for a think tank discussion on ways to improve our world.
re: Boycott TREKEric16
Mar 3, 2002 11:07 AM
WHAT!?!?! You are such a troll
name callingcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 11:50 AM
Some of you people always resort back to name calling.
Self Righteouskerrdog
Mar 3, 2002 11:12 AM
Would you self-righteous bastards get off our backs and live strictly to the standards for yourself that you expect from others?
I practice what I preach. Do you?cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 11:52 AM
re: Boycott TREKwsexson
Mar 3, 2002 12:12 PM
OK, first of all I am a "yellow dog" democrat and the environment, abortion rights, and equality for homosexuals are the the main issues that I make my voting choices on. Anyone who thinks that Dubya isn't a moron thinks that I am.

You (probably a troll) mentioned in another thread that people should get involved with the Sierra Club. I am a member. The Sierra Club is in favor of more power plants in California because new power plants are so much cleaner than ones built 20 or more years ago. Get your facts straight.

Any company that sells as many bicycles as Trek does is a friend of the environment. Mankind has yet to invent a means of transportation more versatile or efficient than a bicycle.

If Honda gave a hybrid car to Dubya, would you call for everyone to boycott Honda? I would consider that advocacy, and something to be commended - not boycotted.
re: Boycott TREKcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 12:48 PM
Actually on a high note this week Bush finally proposed funding for the research of these cars that you mentioned, but we put a lot of pressure on him. We won that argument. We will see if he follows through now.
Non Sequitur Drivelgusriley
Mar 3, 2002 1:04 PM
The statment doesn't follow. Two huge leaps in thought that do not connect with each other.
Non Sequitur Drivelcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 1:42 PM
I disagree. I don't think you posess the thought power to process the information. You are helping us get off track in this discussion though.
Non Sequitur Drivelgusriley
Mar 4, 2002 6:39 AM
"I don't think you posess the thought power to process the information. You are helping us get off track in this discussion though."

I must respectfully disagree with you. My cognitive process is in order. Concerning this thread, yours are questionable.

I believe if you're going to throw a argumentive statement out for the public to read, you should address the argument with stronger points. To do otherwise, invites critical analysis and failure on your part to successfully communicate your intention. In your opening statement, you fail to successfully connect Lance & Trek to Pres. G.W. Bush's environmental issues. When in fact Lance may only be donating to a fellow Texan?
Non Sequitur Drivelcosmicallyconscience
Mar 4, 2002 6:48 AM
I admitted in a previous post that I was probably out of line with the Trek issue, however, I have science backing me up on my argument of global warming. E mail me.
Djudd started the SUV debate not mecosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 1:49 PM
Just want that for the record. His views weren't environmental though. They should be, however.
Oln Rebroadcast of The Tourfirstrax
Mar 3, 2002 2:08 PM
Does that start monday?
Oln Rebroadcast of The Tourcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 2:52 PM
I don't know. Let's talk issues though.
Oln Rebroadcast of The Tourfirstrax
Mar 3, 2002 4:30 PM
O.K. well talk issues.
I bet Lance wins the tour on the rebroadcast.
Oln Rebroadcast of The Tourcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 5:03 PM
Something tells me you are right. Something tells me he will give a bicycle to the unenvironmental President a month later. Then something tells me that will evoke critisism on a message board about environmental policy and cylcing.
Cosmically concious is an asshole! (nm)the Insultan
Mar 3, 2002 4:47 PM
Cosmically concious is an asshole! (nm)cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 5:05 PM
Why is it that you always resort back to name calling?
Wow, this was a long thread.Leisure
Mar 3, 2002 5:15 PM
I'm glad I missed most of it. I would throw in a few quips of my own, but I think it'd do more harm than good. Maybe some other time.
Wow, this was a long thread.cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 5:22 PM
Why not? Everyone else has attacked my personal views and then called me every name in the book as well. At least I go to bed each night confident that I am helping to make a positive change for mankind.
Wow, this was a long thread.firstrax
Mar 3, 2002 5:34 PM
I go to bed each night confident that I am helping to make a profit for mankind.
Wow, this was a long thread.cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 5:45 PM
How does mankind profit from your generosity? I am eager to find out what you do to make the world a better place to live.
Wow, this was a long thread.firstrax
Mar 3, 2002 7:00 PM
I develop technologies. Specifically, video cameras for police cars. I help get drunks and idiots off the streets, forcing them to ride their bikes (at least for 6 months). My products are manufactured in the same town the famous firestone plant closed down in. I brought jobs to a town that lost thousands. I also developed a machine that turns cardboard boxes into packing material. And I am working on software that helps recover social security overpayments.

I don't ask people to live the way I think they should. And I sure as hell don't try and get laws passed that force them to. I show them how I live and hope they like what the see.

And don't accuse me of being generous again. I do it all for the money.
Please read a final thought on this subjectcosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 5:19 PM
You know, a lot of people have complained about me doing what many of these same people do every day on this board. That is speak my mind about something that is very dear to me. I have been flamed for expressing my views on global warming and how bicycles can help solve this problem. I have been very sincere in presenting my views. I read that people are sick of me and my views, and yet more and more people are reading these post and responding. Like my views or not, they do evoke a lot of emotions. Maybe you are upset that a subject that you have posted only has 30-40 people read it while mine is closing in on 2000 in just a little over 12 hours. I had no idea that my post would evoke such feelings. I just had to say what was on my mind, and yet you hate me and insult me for it. These are my opinions and view. I am not making you believe them. I am just asking you to ride more instead of drive. I believe this would make the world a better place to live. What is so bad about that? The world is full of people who don't think alike. I never resorted to calling anyone names. I had to endure the name calling throughout today. You wish to call me a kid on a computer, which is farthest from the truth. These same people throw four letter words at me. Ask yourself who is the child? I only used this form to celebrate the bicycle and tell how it can reduce pollution which will cut down on greenhouse gasses that are destroying the ozone and causing global warming. I am sorry this subject upsets so many people, but this is a subject we must deal with each and every day for the rest of our lives. We have a chance to make it better. I hope you choose the right way to do that, and not continue down the path of life in your SUVs.

Thank you,
Eugene Kaudill
Not quite final.MikeC
Mar 3, 2002 6:02 PM
Eugene, you're trying to come across as reasonable in this last post, yet you're the one who has espoused views that the majority of us consider extremist: boycotting a company that has done much to promote cycling, and banning a class of vehicles found useful by a sizeable population segment. If you're as rational as you portray yourself as being, you should not be surprised by the reaction.

I consider myself to be a responsible adult with respect for our environment, other forms of life, and other views. Yet I cannot rationally accept that all forms of life are of equal value.

Once one accepts that a single minnow is of less value than a single human being, then we start placing conservation issues on a continuum, as opposed to on an equal plane. That leads to value judgments and the establishment of societal norms. And it leads to the philosophy that some forms of nature can be consumed. It is as natural for humans to eat meat as for lions to do so. And it is as natural for humans to create tools (such as SUVs) as it is for monkeys to do so.

Do some tools cause more problems than they cure? Undoubtedly. But advocating the boycotting of Trek because they recognized GWB is like banning hammers because they were once used in a crucifixion.

Perhaps you don't share the above view, but I assure you that most of the human world does. If you want to change us, good luck with your quest. There are more effective ways to do so, however, than making broad-brush, inflammatory statements. I'm sure you understand that will set your cause back more than it will advance it.
Not quite final.cosmicallyconscience
Mar 3, 2002 6:10 PM
Your post is probably right in the fact that singleing out TREK was probably wrong to do in order to make my statement. Maybe I deserved some of what was thrown at me. However, my views about improving the environment are dear to me. I do hope we can do whatever it takes to slow down global warming. I think bicyles are a great and fun way to do so. Don't you think.
And one more thing:Jekyll
Mar 3, 2002 9:44 PM
Many in the environmentalist community would argue that the crux of the detrimental effect human beings have on mother earth is multifaceted:
One being the misuse of resources and technologies ways destructive to the environment.
The second being the simple fact that there are so many of us using and destroying resources, in a word - overpopulation.
As many if not most in the environmentalist community embrace the left and argue for that we need to bring out the altruistic rather than capitalist side of man I make a humble suggestion:
Combine the two - altruism could lead the a simple solution to overpopulation and enviromental destruction.
Eugene - go jump off a cliff, this way you, even in your enlightened and minimalist way (even if you don't drive I'll make the liberal assumption that you occasionally at least fart), will no longer add to the polluting of mother earth. If you are creative and constructive you could possibly talk a few of your friends into joining you in your altruistic, earth saving plunge and if you really love mother earth, take the whole of the Green party with you.
And one more thing:cosmicallyconscience
Mar 4, 2002 4:59 AM
I will not be jumping off a cliff. I don't know why some of you have to become so hateful with your tone. All I asked for was a peaceful conversation. Furthermore, as an environmentalist, I do agree the earth is becoming overpopulated and it is going to become hard to find resources to meet the needs of the population. I do support government mandated birth control programs such as the ones in China.

Vote Green,
Eugene Kaudill
Lets play Legos!!!!!!!!!!!!Woof the dog
Mar 3, 2002 11:22 PM
It doesn't matter whether Earth dies or not in a grand scheme of things, if looking from a completely alien point of view. Yes, many people and those cute seals will die too, just like dozens of pregnant lab mice died while I was watching: sometimes they would wet themselves first because they know what is coming. You'd snap their neck by holding them by the base of their head and pulling on the tail. Later they would be disected and the tiny embryos would still be moving under the scalpel when you try to extract their microscopic spleens.

And yet, without these deaths modern medicine that keeps you alive would not be possible. Don't get me wrong, I am not proud of it, but it is rationally justified. You see, everything is a compromise: do we let millions starve to death today to save more forests for our kids? There is no truth, no facts, just a commonality, a very egoistic sort of goal to survive and to reproduce. What you essentially propose though is a complete crumbling of world-wide economy, starvation, re-gress - all in order to bring Earth to a some sort of better state. It is not how we reach our goals, you can only change things gradually. Stop going back to your simplistic idiom "people pollute earth, it should stop now" - it is too simple in a complex world of compromise. Have you thought about transporting your (hypothetical) deathly ill child to a clinic 40 miles away in freezing rain on a bike? Where is your brain buddy?

If I were you, I would just start saying that if people didn't exist at all, earth would be a better place. Just WHAT is your better place? How do you know what is better and why? Do you think it is wrong to kill animals? Why? How are animals different from plants? Have you taken a high school biology class? Do you smoke organic pot? What does organic really mean? Why do you think you are so smart? Do you think you know everything? Do you cry when I tell you of hundreds of dead mice wrapped in a plastic in a fridge? Would you like to hold one? As much as I'd love to agree with you to cut down on fuel usage, you simply disgust me.

Okay Troll, you better have some damn good answers. If you didn't get the above, here is a simplified situation, please try to do exactly as I say:

Step 1: take one Lego piece (i am sure you still have lots left) of any color (green?) and place it on one side of you, the farther away the better.

Step 2: take 50 Lego pieces of a different color than above and place all in one pile on the opposite side.

Step 3: compare the two sides. The one with 50 legos in it represents all of us on this message board. The single piece on the other side is you. Simply by chance it is very likely that the big pile of legos contains the correct opinion on the issue, especially when all state the same thing! Ta Da, you've figured it out! There are very good reasons why people think you are stupid.

Oh damn, I am saving this thread for all the kids like you. hehe

woof.
Lets play Legos!!!!!!!!!!!!cosmicallyconscience
Mar 4, 2002 5:02 AM
That is horrible what you did to the mice.

I don't play with legos. Not really sure what that has to do with a cycling post requesting the use of more bikes and less cars.
re: Boycott TREKRaiderMike
Mar 3, 2002 9:52 PM
Your first 3 words lead me to believe that you are an idiot "As an Enviromentalist", which was confirmed as I read your post. Thanks to George Bush the Klamath Basin has water again, I can still ride my motorcycle on public lands, my Father can still log old growth Redwoods, and our country is safe. What more could a guy ask for? That my hard earned tax dollars would not be wasted on welfare, and the food stamps it takes to support your stupid a$$. You enviromentalists are a leach on the a$$ of society. If we could only get a decent Governor in Ca.
re: Boycott TREKcosmicallyconscience
Mar 4, 2002 5:05 AM
We have a great governor in Cali. Where have you been? Secondly, you assume I am on the welfare roles. Not true. I am a bike messenger who has to deal with cars and pollution from those cars each day. It isn't too hard to figure out why I hate cars so much. Put yourself in my shoes.
re: Boycott TREKRaiderMike
Mar 4, 2002 1:06 PM
You mean the Governor that blew $10 billion on overpriced electricity, which blew all of our surplus, and sent the state into an economic spiral? You are an Idiot. I wish you luck with your paper route, or what ever it is that you do for a living. If I had to be in your shoes I am afraid I would stick a gun in my mouth and pull the trigger that is how pathetic I think you are. And remember EARTH FIRST! we will log the other planets later.
You are calling me an idiot because I don't share your views?cosmicallyconscience
Mar 4, 2002 1:31 PM
I am an indiot because I don't share your views of Gov. Gray Davis? I remember getting flamed for this same reason, yet find one instance that I resorted to call anyone a name. You won't.

I think Gray Davis is a great governor. He is a friend of the environment. BTW, the surplus is a Bushism.
You are an idiot because you cant spell "indiot"?RaiderMike
Mar 4, 2002 3:31 PM
Outside of your little bike messenger world there is a real world. Someday when you grow up (both mentally, and physically) and are in the real world you will realize that there are more pressing issues than the environment. Jobs, recreation, economy, etc. I could give a f-ck less that you dont share my views. There are 2 types of people in this world there is the silent majority that makes up about 80% of the population, and then there are the Dip sh!ts like you that bitch about the environment, or any other cause that is the trend at that moment. You propose to close down massive plots of land so the double breasted water thrasher( or what ever the endangered species of the month is)wont be inconvenienced and say screw the people that lose their jobs because of it. Environmentalists make me sick, you are a discrace to the human race, but fortunately you are the minority in the US for every 1 of you there are 3 people that oppose what you are doing. Thank God for George Bush, he is straightening out the mess that the Democrats made in the previous 8 years before him.
What messes did the Democrats make?cosmicallyconscience
Mar 4, 2002 4:19 PM
Tell me. You left me hanging. If anything they had to clean up the environmental messes that the Republicans made prior. Remember James Watt? What a joke that man was as interior secretary. Horrible actually. Please, I am waiting for you to tell me the messes.
What messes did the Democrats make?RaiderMike
Mar 5, 2002 12:24 PM
The messes I was refering to were the Roadless initiative, and the Klamath Falls water situation, I dont expect you to be familiar with either of them because your life consists of pedaling a bike to deliver coffee or whatever. Gw Bush has straightened both of these things out by scaling back the roadless initiative, and telling K. Falls farmers, ranchers etc. that their water wont be taken from them to protect some stupid fu-king fish ever again.
What messes did the Democrats make?cosmicallyconscience
Mar 5, 2002 12:42 PM
Sorry, I was not aware of this. However, it isn't because I am uneducated as you assume. I don't deliver coffee either. All assumptions. Please note, that I have admitted when I was wrong, and I have admitted to no knowing something. However, I am not just going to take your word for it. I will research it. Thanks for the info. If true, I will applaud our honorary President.
greeneugene@msn.comcosmicallyconscience
Mar 4, 2002 6:32 AM
If you would like more informations about how to help Mother Earth, or would like to take this debate elsewhere, then please e mail me. greeneugene@msn.com

Eugene Kaudill
um wrong forum...RayBan
Mar 4, 2002 10:00 AM
WTF does George Bush's environmental program have to do with recieving a Trek bicycle? Nothing! Your agenda is environmental not bicycle company related. Maybe I should boycott Fox news because I spilled soda on the carpet while watching TV....
um wrong forum...cosmicallyconscience
Mar 4, 2002 10:48 AM
How many times do I have to admit that I chose the wrong battle. It is listed in many of the earlier post. Maybe you are just a, as this board puts it, "A TROLL". Still the environmental battle is an important one. Please e mail me if you would like to further help the environment and find out new ways you can help.
Eugene Kaudill
greeneugene@msn.com
re: Boycott TREKcosmicallyconscience
Mar 4, 2002 11:26 AM
I will no longer be posting under the name cosmically conscienceEugene Kaudill
Mar 5, 2002 1:42 PM
Because I am proud of my views, and none of you have said much that will change them, I am using my mother given name to post by. Future post will be posted under my name, Eugene Kaudill. Don't take the previous statement wrong, I have enjoyed the debate, and I have learned from it. I just am not going to change my views about how important the environment is to protect. The riding will get better if we do it right!
Eugene
Case closedEugene Kaudill
Mar 7, 2002 5:11 AM
This discussion is over. Sorry for upsetting each and everyone of you trolls. (not really that sorry)
re: Boycott TREKLliduak
Mar 9, 2002 7:23 AM
You all know I was right!