|Dura-Ace Vs. Record||Wild Bill|
Feb 21, 2002 5:26 PM
|I have only owned Dura-Ace and been always told that Campy record is #1. I have never really had a problem with Dura-Ace However All the riders I know that have 2000,2001 Campy Record have had problems!
Chains breaking, headset you can’t adjust, shifting impossible to set up 100%, Ti cassette wears out too fast, The Proton, Electron and Nucleon wheel sets don’t stay true!
Can anybody shed some light on this? Has Record taken a back seat to Dura-Ace?
|look at the archives... seems to me you answered your own Q...nm||geof|
Feb 21, 2002 6:41 PM
|Dura Ace is like all other||JAJA|
Feb 21, 2002 7:40 PM
|quality Japanese products, you forget they are there and just use them. Campy is more like a Ferrari, not the most reliable, but will all the prestige that takes a little more tinkering.
The Dura Ace is like an Acura NSX which was often thought of as the best car ever made $ for $. AN exotic that can be driven daily with the reliability of an Accord.\
Record is good stuff, but it is the emotional, idealist and purist that swoons over it. Functionally, it is NO BETTER THAN DURA ACE no matter what they say. I have ridden both and I, like even the Campy purists will admit, had a break in period as well as little quirks that were always present. My Dura Ace has been flawless with no quirks at all.
Both are great but Dura Ace is the better value with equal performance and durability.
|Japenese vs. European enginering||k mand|
Feb 22, 2002 9:27 AM
|This is an interesting comparison. The Japanese are interested in perfect, smooth function, high performance. They are outstanding engineers. Highly functional but utterly boring. Europeans engineer with more style, feel, and character. It's really apple and oranges and preferences. I like the feel of Campy shifts with the feel of it catching, the wonderful feel of bearings in the shifters, the ergos of the thumb shifters and the finish. A Honda CBR929 and NSX, high perfomance wise but you get bored after a while and look for something with an edge like a Ducati 998 or a 911. Not necesarily better, just different. I ride several thousand miles per year, and have never had a problem with Record. In 20 years, the Porsche will be a classic and the NSX, just another Honda. It's also nice seeing a 20 year old bike with Campy parts in perfect working order.|
|Are the campy thumb shifters really ergonomically correct?||Barnyard|
Feb 22, 2002 1:37 PM
|Or is this just your opinion?|
|Are the campy thumb shifters really ergonomically correct?||Not to me their not|
Feb 22, 2002 8:59 PM
|That was my biggest complaint with Campy. in order for my hands to get any leverage at all in order to do the thumb shifts I had to rotate my hands about 90 degrees clockwise (left hand) and 90 degrees counterclockwise (right hand) in order to depress the thumb button. That forces you to change your grip on the bars while on the fly and when climbing out of the saddle I thought it really affected your handling for the second or two that it took to make the shift. I think it's a very poor ergonomic design from that standpoint. On the other hand, I think the Campy shifters ergonomics are better than shimano in that the flat area between the bar and shifter is larger and allows easier placement of my hands, but that thumb shift issue just killed any desire for me to buy their groups. Some people love the thumb shifter, I hate it and much prefer being able to do all my shifts with my index and middle fingers while never having to rotate my hands around the bars during a shift.|
|just personal preference.nm||k|
Feb 24, 2002 8:48 AM
|re: Dura-Ace Vs. Record||siclmn|
Feb 21, 2002 8:37 PM
|Campy seems to appeal to your Mac users. They just want to be different. Dura Ace is set and forget. Always works.|
|re: Dura-Ace Vs. Record||SnowBlind|
Feb 21, 2002 9:09 PM
|There are two functional differences between Campy and Shimano:
1. The shifter and brake are intergrated on Shimano. Personally I don't like it.
2. Campy can shift up to 5 gears with one hand movement. Today, I did a perfect cross shift from small to large chain ring, and from the 14 to the 17 cog. All at 36 km per hour. In a pace line. One fell swoop of the hands. Sweet.
Run in on Campy is a bit more troublesome than Shimano. Record threadless headsets are a bugaboo because of the "seat collar". This plastic piece (o' sh1t) is designed to hold the headset aligned while it runs in. This means you have to be carefull about play in the headset. Do remember that Shimano does not make a threadless, so they can't say much there.
Campy record hubs and headsets have grease ports. Very nice.
Campy parts can be rebuilt, which is really only an advantage if you keep your stuff for more than ~20000 miles.
Like Honda's and Toyota's, Shimano's are easier to replace than to fix after you get out of the consumables area.
Shimano splined drive is a sweet design, so is the hollocrank tech. Campy still has tapered squares, but the record crankset is a thing of beauty, mechanically and visually. Record pista is beyond compare.
As for the wheelsets, well, less is not always more, and they are strictly for racing. Don't complain if you use race wheels for training.
Breaking chains: I don't know, bullshit if you ask me. The lightest rider in my group is 175, and one is 245. Even the 245 pedal mashing fool of a mountian biker has yet to break a chain. My guess is some people are screwing with the chains, i.e, not using the right tools or reusing a perm-a-link.
Shifting is the same way. Abuse your shifters, screw with them, don't clean and lube them, they shift like crap. And to be honest, more precision means more care. Look at how a Shimano shifts, it has many mm of float in the top jocky. Campy has some, but not near as much. Thus, Campy needs more care.
A good friend of mine refers to his classic Alfa as his "Italian whore". But, as he points out, there is no ride in the world like an Italian ride.
|re: Dura-Ace Vs. Record||R-I-D-E|
Feb 22, 2002 12:17 AM
There is some good reading for you. This is one of two such comparisons that I have found. Both came to a very similar conclusion. Record 10 IS superior to DuraAce, and the comparison is better between Chorus and DuraAce.
Read for yourself.
|Not sure where you heard about Proton, Nucleon, et al||McAndrus|
Feb 22, 2002 5:00 AM
|I'm on my second season on a set of Protons and they are bombproof. They're so straight and true I don't even look at them anymore to see if they're true. Electrons, Nucleons, and Neutrons are (by reputation) just as solid and lighter (thus more expensive). I know a guy with Nucleons and he's never complained once about them.|
Feb 22, 2002 5:25 AM
|Apparently the guys that you know who use Campy are too dumb to perform normal installation, adjustment and maintenance.
I switched from Shimano to Campy in '95. I have had only one small problem in all those years. I had a Record 10 ergo lever develop a minor problem after 3000 miles of use. The lever was repaired (free) on warranty.
I'm on my third 10 speed chain. My chains have measured only 1/16" stretch in FOUR feet, after 4000 miles of use, when I change them (annually). I have experienced nothing but flawless shifting.
I rarely have to adjust the shift cables. After the first week of use they settle in for thousands of miles of trouble free use.
I've never had to readjust a headset.
Ti cogs don't last as long as steel ones; doesn't matter who makes them. Once again, dummies who don't clean and lube regularly will get poor life from their components.
Having 10 speeds is also great. The 12-25 range, which includes the important 16 tooth cog, is great for the hilly terrain.
|My conclusion||Wild Bill|
Feb 22, 2002 5:43 AM
|Well I have to tell you my conclusion is, Dura-Ace hands down!
It seems that all you need to do is ride!
If you like to tinker every time you ride than Campy may be the group for you.
I think riding is a lot more than just going around saying, Hey look at me I have Campy Record I'm a somebody!
No thanks, I will ride my Dura-Ace.
I may not be as popular but I will always finish and never have to make excuses.
Thank you all for your replies
|re: Dura-Ace Vs. Record||tarwheel|
Feb 22, 2002 5:54 AM
|I have no experience with Dura-Ace, and I am sure it is top notch. However, your friends' experiences with Campy do not sound typical to me. I have Chorus 10, which is the same as Record without a few carbon and ti parts here and there. I have never had any of the problems you mentioned after 4,000 miles and nearly 9 months of riding. My gears have stayed perfectly adjusted from day one. I recently had my chain checked for wear, and it's not even near needing replacement at 4,000 miles. Ti cogs will wear out faster than steel, whether you're using Record or Dura-Ace. If you want maximum wear from a cassette, get Chorus or Ultegra. If you want the maximum durability with Campy, get Chorus -- it's a little heavier but more durable because it doesn't have the carbon and ti parts. BTW, I also have a bike with Ultegra gear, and the shifting is much less precise and harder to "set up" right than my Chorus bike.|
Feb 22, 2002 6:45 AM
|There were several dramatic chain break, last year in the races, like when Perez broke his chain in the Giro. He was on a one man breakaway, within about a mile of the mountain top finish, when his chain snapped. But that was a Shimano chain, not a Campy chain. I would argue that the early 10 speed chains had some problems, but the Shimano chains have always sucked. This is why I use SRAM chains on my Shimano bikes.|
|So obviously a TROLL!!||js|
Feb 22, 2002 7:01 AM
|and/or dipsh!t mechanics at work|
|Campys great if you like clunky shifts and constant adjustments||Campy is Overated always has|
Feb 22, 2002 7:19 AM
|Aboutt he only advantage Campy has is 10 speed versus 9 and even that is really no big deal at all. every guy i know who runs Campy talks about fine tuning the shifting constantly, even the bike shops which sell the stuff admit this. Nothing shifts smoother than Dura Ace, not even Record. Do you know what lets Campy do those nice multiple cog shifts? It's the fact hat their rear derailler literally shoves the chain accrodd the cassette. Shimanos rear derailleurs actually lift the chain and then drop it down on the proper cog whereas the campy rear derailleurs do almost no lifting up, they just shove it accrodd the cassette. Take a close look at how each derailleur shifts sometime, that's why people say Campy shifts are clunky feeling compared to Shimano and you know what they are.
Campy is for little elitists who think they are somehow showing off a better bike by outfitting it with Campy, but the plain truth is the Shimano drivetrains shift smoother, require far less constant adjustments, are very durable, less expensive and look pretty good too.
Now where is that Campy troll? LOL
|Campys great if you like clunky shifts and constant adjustments||Campy is Overated always has|
Feb 22, 2002 7:22 AM
|Oh one other thing, with Shimano you have much greater selection of wheelsets than Campy and the bottom bracket design blows away Campy's antiquated design. A no brainer if you are truly looking to buy the best group, not the best looking group, Dura Ace all the way.|
|Jeez||Brain in my head|
Feb 22, 2002 7:50 AM
|Can you really be that simple?
Oh right, yeah. Campy is sooooo badly made that you have to CONSTANTLY adjust it to get it to function. Right. Yeah. Barely function at that. Sure.
The only valid criticism is that Campy don't put a "suitable for 4 years and up" on the box so that -people like you don't get frustrated.
Yeah. Pros use campy just for the extra challenge. Yeah right. Sure. 'Course.
Jeeeeeeez, what a bozo.
I ride Shimano, and you are even embarassing ME. Plezzzzzze, go back to your cartoons.....
|I ride both Shimano and Campy||Val Hampsten|
Feb 22, 2002 8:00 AM
|I think Shimano Dura Ace is the smoothest shifting drivetrain out there, hands down. Record is nice, but the shifts are not as smooth as D/A and I know how to keep my drivetrain in tune. My 02 cents for what it's worth.|
|don't forget your change!||nm|
Feb 22, 2002 8:57 AM
|You both need||Mel Erickson|
Feb 22, 2002 12:37 PM
|to take a course on how to win friends and iffluence people. There are some good points made but why the need to piss each other off? BTW, the pros ride what they're given to ride. Only the elite of the elite have a choice and most don't care. Their bike's a tool to get the job done and as long as it works, that's all that counts.|
|re: Dura-Ace Vs. Record||MP|
Feb 22, 2002 9:44 AM
|Go to http://www.totalbike.com/index2.html for a four-part series on entitled "Road War Shimano versus Campagnolo."|
|re: Dura-Ace Vs. Record||CT1 Guy|
Feb 22, 2002 12:30 PM
|Shimanos fine if you want to run it for a few years and then replace it - Campag's the best for the bikes you want to ride and cherish.
Ever tried rebuilding a Shimano STI - you can't - just dole and the big bucks and wait for your replacement lever.
I've rebuilt a number of Ergos now - I've got a pair of 92 Chorus and just rebuilt them - just like new. And they don't rattle either - unlike some current Shimano stuff.
Also rebuilt a pair of Record Carbon Ergos and looking to convert them to 10 speed - should cost about $50.
Similarly, just rebuilt a bike with a 92 Mirage rear mech - it was their cheapest at the time. The bushes are still fine and it polished up like new - must have done over 10,000 miles, all year round in the salt, rain and mud. Used to get pissed off that Shomano mechs would wear out after a couple of years...
|Don't buy the rebuld argument||pmf1|
Feb 22, 2002 12:57 PM
|I always hear the greatest thing about Campy stuff is that you can rebuild it. Can't do that with Shimano. Just have to throw it away. I've got STI levers that I've ridden for several years (I ride 5000-6000 mpy) and they still work great. In 10 years, or whatever, they will probably wear out, but then I'll be running the 14 speed Super Dura Ace group that weighs 300 grams and shifts under mental control. So who cares if I can't rebuild them? yeah, just a throw away guy. Personally, the thought of rebuilding an STI/Ergo lever, with all those gears and screws, is not appealing to me. So is Campy great because it can be rebuilt, or Shimano great because it doesn't need to be? Maybe it just appeals to different groups of people. I've always had Shimano because I started with it. Once you have the tools, wheels, etc, its awful hard economically to make a case for switching. And why is it that every one of those bragging bike experts who were once great riders and now ride 53 miles per year are the ones who are most loudly telling me that Shimano sucks and Campy is the best? |
There will never be agreement in the ever going Campy vs Shimano debate. Its silly to argue about. Why can't we resist it? Afterall, they're just bike parts.
|25000 plus miles on them?||koala|
Feb 22, 2002 4:03 PM
|Thats the farthest I have ever heard anyone get out of any shifters without any work on them.....|
|Total Utter Bullshit||Keith Cook|
Feb 22, 2002 1:36 PM
|You tell me exactly how many guys who have the cash to run either Dura Ace or Record are actually gonna bother rebuilding a shifter 5 or 6 years down the road rather than just walking into their LBS and having a new set installed? You're a clown if you think anyone with the duckets to run either of these two groups is gonna pick one over the other because you can order some parts and rebuild broken parts years down the road. Duar Ace when taken care of will last you probably longer than you want to ride your current bike before you move onto another new steed and you know it and it definitely shifts better than anything else.|
|Total Utter Bullshit||SnowBlind|
Feb 22, 2002 2:06 PM
My riding parter is just about to rebuild his Chorus shifters, some 25000+ miles later. No urge on his part to update to 10. Single, 6 digit income, no car. He can have whatever he wants on the bike, money not a prob.
Nor will I when the time comes. Unless I crash the current frame beyond all hope, it should last me 20 years. Quality custom steel does that you know.
Now if I had a production anything: screw it, buy a new one every 2-5 years. Did exactly that when I moved up from the Bianchi.
|Its all about preferences||pmf1|
Feb 22, 2002 2:31 PM
|and mechanical ability. I notice your buddy hasn't done it yet. Personally, I'd just pay the $250 and get new ones rather than spend the better part of a week (which it what it would take me) to rebuild shifters. Its not something I'd enjoy doing and my time is valuable. |
And I can't see any frame being desirable after 20 years. Sure, it'll last, but would you want to be riding that 1982 Motobecane that weighs 28 lbs and has five speeds these days? It was a state of the art bike then. Anyone who rides a good deal will simply want something new after a while. I recall a 20 lb bike being a near miracle 10 years ago. Now its heavy. What will they be like 10 years from now? I don't know, but I bet I'll be riding one.
|Its all about preferences||SnowBlind|
Feb 22, 2002 2:43 PM
if you can't see a hand build, silver brazed, custom sized frame being "desirable" after 20 years, you are in the Shimano demographic. 20lbs isn't always heavy, in my case it is perfect (and guess what? it weighes 20lbs). At my ideal weight it will be just about %10 of my body weight.
As for the wise crack about "hasn't done it yet" is because it still works, it just works like a new DuraAce. Nor will it take more than an hour or two to do, depending on how many "Eye of the Hawks" we down in the process.
|Its all about preferences||Velolover|
Feb 22, 2002 7:11 PM
|No, it does not work like a new Dura Ace, it works like a new Record. And if your buddy is doing that rebuild I'll assure you he's is in a very small minority of current Campy owners running and rebuilding 6 speed drivetrains after 25000 miles of use. The plain truth is that if most guys get 4-6 years out of their components, almost all of them will be ready to move on to the latest and greatest at that point and that's why the Campy rebiuld argument for most riders is a smokescreen. Exactly what portion of current Campy owners do you think are rebuilding 6 speeds versus buying new 10 speed Campy??? Very few! Your buddy is an exception, he's certainly not the norm.
I have a hard time picturing most record owners
|Its all about preferences||SnowBlind|
Feb 22, 2002 7:42 PM
|Where did you get a six speed? WHere did you get Record? Pulled it right outta thin air. It is 1997-98 9speed and he has no car, has no family in the states, and he is a serious rider for 20+ years, so 24000+ is only four years of riding at 125+ miles a week.
Also, I said the worn shifter is running as well as a Dura ace new. I hate having to expain jokes.
I don't mind discussing it with you but if you are going to make stuff up, and not read the posts it makes it real hard to have a meaningful discussion with you.
|Its all about preferences||Not to me their not|
Feb 22, 2002 9:08 PM
|As I said the worn shifter is running as well as Record new, got it genius? You're trying to make it sound as if most guys who buy Campy rebuild their shifters when they wear out. That's complete bullshit, they get new shifters when it happens and many are on to new bikes with new equipment before either their D/A or Record shifter wear out and you know it. Only a very small percentage of Campy guys actually rebuild their equipment when it wears out, it's a moot point and you know it or should know it. Your friend is an exception, not the norm.
I don't mind discussing it with you so long as you stop making up crap like the worn shifters run as well as new D/A. Thta's complete bullshit and you know it! They probably run as well as new sloppy shifting Record is more like it.
|yet another Record vs DA thread... Goodnight, folks! Zzzzzzz -NM||Tig|
Feb 22, 2002 2:46 PM
|yet another Record vs DA thread... Goodnight, folks! Zzzzzzz -NM||R-I-D-E|
Feb 22, 2002 8:55 PM
|Oh what the heck||mackgoo|
Feb 23, 2002 6:41 AM
|This is a cut and paste job from a different post. It does get old typing the same thing, and there is some refference's to cross, just take what you need to keep the flames burning.
I'm a Campyholic. I ride Record because I can afford it. I have the 10sp on my road bike and converted 10sp back to 9sp on my cross bike. I have a real respect for these carbon components as I've been beating them pretty good with the cross no problems. I apreciate being able to rebuild every component, update it to the lattest and greatest, or in the case of the cross back date it for personal reasons.I've also been using an older pair of Shamal Ti's for the cross. I have to chuckle when ever I see a post inquireing about the strength of road wheels, if they only knew.
I don't like the way Shimano has designed their shifting mechanism, yeah it looks cool but functionally it's a bomb for me. I bought a used bike last summer which had Dura Ace. I felt it didn't shift as well as my Athena components of the same vintage. Shimano wears out you replace, Campy you rebuild.
I can be pedaling down a hill to a stop apply the brakes with my first two fingers and shifting with my third finger, I'll have been pedaling all the way and be in the correct gear at the bottom for when I check and continue on through the intersection. Shimano Ha.
Personally I prefer the asthetics of Campy, oh and did I say it was Campy.
Let's face it Campy dropped the ball in the 80's, but they wised up and are back on the top of the heap to stay.
Feb 23, 2002 10:44 AM
|I drive a Ford pick-up truck.
C'mon Chevy owners, tell me how much I suck. I dare you.
Feb 23, 2002 11:59 AM
|But then again there's a reason why Ford is number one in sales isn't there.|| |