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Is it safe to ask a question yet?(45 posts)

Is it safe to ask a question yet?Crankist
Feb 17, 2002 1:38 PM
I ride a 55 cm Zurich which I expect to keep for another year. It fits me (5'11", short inseam) very well
and I'm comfortable on it for hours. However, I'm suffering through symptoms of a Seven steel Axiom
obsession; I know my life would be in perfect harmony with the universe on the day it arrives.
Anyway, I expect that a full fitting and custom-sized frame would still be of some benefit. Finally
the question: what if any ride characteristics would be improved? No, I don't race - and yes, there are
some awesome mountains around to climb. I have sent a similar e-mail to Seven and look forward to
their response but would like to get opinions from those without an agenda.
The cost is about $2K w/ \their CF fork & CK headset.
re: Is it safe to ask a question yet?CT1
Feb 17, 2002 1:43 PM
If your current ride fits you as good as you say, you will be wasting your money replacing it with a Seven. The bottom line is that the Seven won't get you up those hills any faster than your current bike. It also won't "feel" any different.

If you want the Seven because "you want it" .... then GREAT!.... just don't look for technical justifications, because there aren't any!

ride on
Thanks; heck yes I want it - or something like it!Crankist
Feb 18, 2002 9:08 AM
I'm OK with your answer, I really expected to hear several posts like yours. But there is more to
bike ownership than just technical stuff.
Im with CT1....koala
Feb 17, 2002 2:58 PM
You may feel some difference but it probably wont be great, especially since you dont seem to have fit problems. Why not go the extra 1000 and go axiom ti? That would be different enough to justify getting a new frame!
Im with CT1....RoadRumper
Feb 17, 2002 3:16 PM
Your current steed sounds like it fits you great and provides great comfort. The Lemond from a real world performance standpoint is every bit as good as a Seven Axiom if not better. 853 Reynolds tubeset is superb and their welds are of very good quality. Just because there are lots of them out there doesn't mean they are not as good or even better than a comparable Seven Axiom. Nothing wrong with buying a Seven if you have the cash and want something more exclusive, but to me that's about all you are buying is some exclusivity, no real performance gain whatsoever.

Custom fittings are typically only required for riders with very unusual body proportions or pro racers who have their measurements and desired geometries dialed in to almost the millimeter. The vast majority of recreational/weekend warrior riders can find several stock frames from various manufacturers that will fit them like a glove as in your case. If it were me I'd use the extra cash to buy a killer wheelset or upgrade some components on your Lemond if you'd like, but overall unless you are doing it mainly for exclusivity purposes it seems like a huge waste of cash.

I'd be willing to bet that the for comparably sized and equipped bikes, the Lemond Zurich is slightly lighter than the Seven and an even better climber. As far as the Axiom Ti is concerned, I personally don't think Ti rides as well as steel, that's just me. I think about the only advantage Ti gives you is that you don't have the maintenance of fixing paint chips as you do with steel, but I have never known a single rider who took reasonable care of their steel frame and had it rust out on them, not one. From my experiance, comparable Ti frames versus steel are usually heavier, less stiff and transmit small vibrations more than steel. Losing on all three counts. Vertical compliance typically only helps in smoothing out big bumps, not small vibration road buzz where steel is definitely more comfortable than comparable Ti frame in my view.
How about the Cervelo Renaissance ?noupi
Feb 17, 2002 3:29 PM
Looks like a good steel frame.
How about the Cervelo Renaissance ?Micro Muse
Feb 17, 2002 4:06 PM
A Seven Axiom would not benefit your riding at all as your current frame sounds awesome for your needs. A 57 cm Axiom will weigh about 4.2 lbs compared with about 3.5 for a Lemond, that's a huge difference just in weight.

To put into light how silly overpriced Sevens are, take a look at their STRAIGHT GUAGE ti bike, the Alaris. They sell the frame for $1,995, that's not a typo, $1,995 for STRAIGHT GAUGE ti! I don't care what their fabrication methods are that they claim, their tig welding their frames like everybody else, and pretty welds do not equate into a better bike! A good tig weld is a good tig weld is a good tig weld and so on. Unless they are also including a majic pill which boosts your V02 max by 50%, no STRAIGHT GUAGE ti frame is worh $1995 or anything even remotely close to that price. I could get a multi butted and shaped Litespeed Tuscany which includes some 6/4 ti in the BB for hundreds less than that and it would be a much better overall performer from just about every aspect of riding you could think of because of the butting and complex tube shaping.

Go buy an steel Axiom if that stirs your drink, but I think your going to be very disappointed if you are expecting it to be some magic carpet ride compared to your Lemond.
Ti heavier than steel?Kerry Irons
Feb 17, 2002 4:27 PM
Have you got any data to back up this curious statement? Most would agree that comparable steel frames are around a half pound heavier than Ti, and much more susceptible to denting since the tube walls become so thin.
Ti heavier than steel?Vaparo
Feb 17, 2002 6:14 PM
You must be talking about steel from 10 years ago, because the current lightweight steels are consistently producing frames lighter than ti frames with the same approximate frame stiffness. If you exclude sloping toptube designs, about the lightest medium size ti bike out there right now is the Litespeed Vortex at just over 3.5lbs and that's 6.4 ti. There are several steel bikes out there using Reynolds 853, Dedacciai EOM 16.5 and Ultra Foco that can come in well under that weight in a mid sized frame.
Every Seven Ti frame is lighter than the Vortex.Leisure
Feb 18, 2002 4:21 PM
in 57cm sizes, the Alaris is 3.39 lbs, the Axiom is 3.01, the Odonata is 2.71, and the Alta is 2.30. Only the last one is sloping toptube. I can see some steel frames being lighter than the Alaris, but few I would think are going to approach the Axiom.
Every Seven Ti frame is lighter than the Vortex.I have ridden both
Feb 18, 2002 5:15 PM
That's because every Seven Ti frame uses regular diameter round tubes and will flex like a noodle under any serrious pedal loads. A Vortex provides far better power transfer than any ti bike Seven makes. your quating advertised weights on stock Seven frames, how many guys buy that? I'll guarantee you that if you order a Seven and aske them to build it up as stiff as a Vortex, by the time you get done you'l be looking a bike that is heavier than a same sized Vortex because they don't use shaped tubes, just round ones and they would have to use huge round tubes to get the same stiffness as a Vortex.
Every Seven Ti frame is lighter than the Vortex.Leisure
Feb 18, 2002 7:06 PM
The shaped tube thing, I hate to say, is a gimmick. Pretty much the only shaped tube that can confer any real benefit is oval, if you know in advance that the loading will be almost exclusively in one direction. The reason shaped tubes are not of any real benefit is more easily explained by example. You can create a square tube that is stronger in either vertical or horizontal loading than a round tube with the same wall thickness and circumference, but when you load the tube horizontally AND vertically at the same time (essentially all the time when riding) the round tube wins out. The marketing trick is to fool you into thinking that since a shaped tube can be stronger in one direction or the other, it must be stronger everywhere in between, when it's really the opposite. Total nonsense, but easy for the non-engineering customer to not see.
And no, not every Seven Ti frame uses regular diameter tubes. They use different tube diameters to vary stiffness in different parts of the frame. If you want to get into the details of it, Seven can give you any combination of tube diameters you want, but the one that gets ordered the most used to be called their "Classic" tubeset and is what they use for their advertised weights. The seatstays are thinner diameter and curved to give great vertical compliance, while the chainstays are thicker and have ridiculously good power transfer. The Axiom frame that won me over accelerated like a jet but was plush like a softail. Can the Vortex beat it? Maybe over the "Classic" tubeset, because of the 6/4 Ti, but the shaped tubes would actually be counterproductive. While ordering a Seven with stiffer chainstays *might* make the Alaris heavier than the Vortex, none of the other Sevens will be. Besides, there will be far bigger losses in power transfer from most drivetrains than from either the Vortex or the Litespeed frames. If you really did test ride both, chances are most of the difference was the drivetrain, and even then we don't know how that Seven frame was ordered.
Also, am I to take it that "slightly over 3.5 lbs" is not the advertised weight of the Vortex? What is it then? Yes, many companies will exagerate on their weight ratings. In fact, this is why I am dubious of the Lemond's alleged half-pound weight advantage over the Steel Axiom. The trend is that true high-end companies exagerate less than mid- and lower-priced companies. If you've looked at Seven's advertised weights then you know they list them for every size of every model. That would be a lot of work creating fictitious weights for that many frames. My guess is that Seven's advertised weights are much closer to the truth than you could expect from Lemond or even Litespeed. In fact, I'll go weigh some of their frames at my LBS this week and let you know where they're at.
Every Seven Ti frame is lighter than the Vortex.HautacamorBust
Feb 19, 2002 10:18 AM
Actually the shaped tube thing is not a giommick at all. The same guys who think shaped tubes are a gimmick are the ones who 5 years ago thought carbon fiber forks were a gimmick. Shaped tubing allows you to specifically design a tube to be very stiff in one plane (usually the major axis) which being more comliant in the other (minor axis).

The weights which Seven quotes for its frames are stock frames not custom, and the other poster is correct. If you asked for them to custom build an Axiom Ti bike with the same stiffness as a Vortex using round tubes you would end up with a bike that had tube diameters on the order of a tandem bike and you'd be most likely looking at a frame which pushes 4lbs in a comparable size.

And yes, Seven does use different tube diameters as you exactly stated, that's the whole point!! Using round tubes without any shaping they would have to use huge diameter round tubes to build a bike as laterally stiff as the Vortex. Probably tubes as large as those on a Pegoretti Great Googoolee Moogoolee as a reference. Very large diameter tubes. There is absolutely no way Seven could build a bike that is lighter than the Vortex with the same stiffness using simple round tubes unless they are using a new Ti material unknown to all other man.
Not exactly.Leisure
Feb 19, 2002 7:12 PM
First off, the mathematical benefits that we're talking about either way is small and won't win any races or bust any frames. But I'm going to entertain the theory anyway.
Shaped tubes are old news. The physics of it has been known for centuries. You can get more stiffness in one plane at the expense of another, or more stiffness in two planes in exchange for everything in between, and so on. If you want maximal stiffness and strength in all directions you want a round tube. If you want to prioritize some stiffness in one direction you can use an oval. If you know that all the force is going to be in one plane (ie- the forces will cancel in the other), you use something analogous to an I-beam; in bicycling that means I-beams, blades, or box sections. While you can justify using ovals here or box-sections there, you cannot justify anything beyond that (square, hexagon, whatever), unless you absolutely know that it will only get loaded in each specific plane one at a time. That doesn't happen on a bike. So while Litespeed's Vortex may indeed have better lateral stiffness in isolated loading tests (ie- one direction at a time), the benefits will be diminished, even deleterious, in real world riding.
This does NOT mean that Litespeeds are piles and suddenly susceptible to catastrophic failure. I'm not saying this diminished strength is huge by any means. I'm saying it does not help, not in the over-extended ways that Litespeed has implemented. That's why I say it's a gimmick, harsh word selection or not. The strength that will be lost in shaping the tubes will be curbed by the 6/4 Ti. That's where the Vortex's strength really is, assuming of course that these are true tubes and not the rolled-and-bead-welded things. If the Vortex is stiffer than a given Seven frame, which I do not necessarily argue with, it's because of the use of 6/4, not the shaped tubes.
And once again, there is no such thing as a "stock" Seven frame. They did have a "Signiture" designation for the tube combination they sold most often. Though the weights between Seven frames with different size tubes will vary it won't be anywhere near what you claim. I've held an Axiom frame with a 2" diameter bottom tube and 1.5" toptube and it did not weigh anything near four pounds.
BTW, I measured an Odonata frame at the LBS. It weighed 2.75 lbs in a 54cm, versus 2.5 lbs advertised. That's a 4 oz difference, some of which was undoubtedly the instruction booklet, cable adjusters, and other little things I didn't bother removing.
I say go for it!szybki
Feb 17, 2002 4:01 PM
I'm lusting after one of these too. They're beautiful bikes. Hey, you only go around once - get the bike.
re: Is it safe to ask a question yet?shrinkracer
Feb 17, 2002 4:17 PM
we ride with our hearts and our minds as well as our bodies.. riding is a hedonic experience...(it is as physical as it is psychological)
I have raced and ridden recreationally...
and i have ridden stock and custom bikes...
(incidentally i ride without a computer)..
let me tell you.. nothing in the world feels better than a custom fitted bicycle.
the important thing here is your perception of speed and feeling of enjoymnet.. these things are priceless...
don't let anyone tell you what you can or can't feel...

just ride hard and enjoy...

when i am in racing shape i can podium on my twelve year old steel frame..and when i am out of shape i can get dropped on my custom rig...
its about your total sensory experience.. i love having a bike that is not mass produced.. i feel faster for it...

life is short..
don't get bogged down by the constant thread of insecure thinking here...

every pro or national team member i have ever ridden with has been generous and not at all opinionated like CT1..
i take his comments with a grain of salt...let your riding do the talking...
re: Is it safe to ask a question yet?MerckxBoy
Feb 17, 2002 4:24 PM
Which pros and national level riders have you ridden with. I have never known a single one of them who was not very opinionated.

You said it best, "when i am in racing shape i can podium on my twelve year old steel frame..and when i am out of shape i can get dropped on my custom rig...

I could not have said it better myself, don't expect any improvement from the 7. Just my cents.
re: Is it safe to ask a question yet?me again
Feb 17, 2002 4:57 PM
i live in Los Angeles.. great riders are always coming through here..
be it the mercury around pepperdine.. or pros just traveling through..and have had the pleasure of sitting in with everyone from thurlow rogers to some hot shot kids whose names i dont know.. (the key being sitting in.. these guys are way out of my league)..
i guess what i am trying to say is that it is important to acknowledge that there is more to riding than physics.. someone's emotional attatchment to their rig is allowed ...

blindfolded i dont think most people can tell if their bike has the wieght of two full water bottles..i would rather have a heavier bike that fits perfectly than one that doesn't..
who cares what brand.. its personal to the the guy...
let him have a seven if it makes him feel faster..maybe he will put more effort in his training...
re: Is it safe to ask a question yet?John V
Feb 17, 2002 5:18 PM
Well that's not what he asked. He started this thread by specifically asking in his initial post, what if any ride characteristics would be improved, go look at his post. Given that he has already stated that his Zurich fits him great and is very comfortable riding for hours, I think it's safe to say the Axiom will most likely provide no noticeable improvement at all over the Zurich which is what his main question was.

If he wants it to sooth his heart he should do so, but it sure doesn't seem like he'll get any better performance.
re: Is it safe to ask a question yet?shrinkrider
Feb 17, 2002 9:48 PM
last time i checked.. the idea that your bike is comfy doesnt mean it fits right..
it just means its comfortable..
the new england academy doesn't say that i proper fit is when your bike feels comfy..
any bike that is fit kitted or better yet.. custom made to fit.. will work better than one that is not.. i say this from actual experience and not beuase i read it somewhere...
weight is less important than fit...
re: Is it safe to ask a question yet?Orvis Flyguy
Feb 18, 2002 7:14 AM
Last time I checked... I can't recall anyone who was able to be comfortable riding on a bike for hours that didn't fit them properly. I also don't recall anyone in here even hinting that weight was more important than proper fit.

Frame weight is obviously less important than proper fit, but there is nothing he has said which would even remotely indicate his current bike is ill fitting. People are not comfortable on their bikes for hours at a time if they are ill fitted to it, sorry that just doesn't happen, and personally I think much of the New England Fit Academy's theory is antiquated and that's putting it mildly.

He asked what ride characteristics would change by going to the Axiom especially for climbing lots of hills around him. And yes, adding nearly 3/4's of a pound to your frame weight when you are already climbing lots of hills on a bike you are comfortable on for hours, would most likely affect his ride characteristics for climbing all the hills around him in.
re: Is it safe to ask a question yet?koala
Feb 17, 2002 4:48 PM
Great post... I guess thats why I got a custom steel bike. Can I withdraw my previous response?
Feb 18, 2002 9:02 AM
...for the words on sensory experience, this is true enough and relevent to ride quality. Aesthetics is
another issue for me but I am sometimes unwilling to admit that- and this one looks great to my eyes.
But mostly I like the idea of a bike made for me, and due to near-perfect fit and perhaps a bit of extra
stiffness in the right places and compliance in the right places it would also improve the ride. Life IS
short - thanks for taking the time.
re: Is it safe to ask a question yet?why not
Feb 17, 2002 4:54 PM
Looks a lot like a lemond but different color. Ride them blind folded and you most likely could not tell the difference. A change of angle here and longer stem there and wala, you have two different bikes that fit and ride the same.

Oh if you really want the Seven, why not!!!
Can a Seven frame be ordered without a Seven fork?John V
Feb 17, 2002 5:21 PM
Just curious how custom their custom is if they force you to buy the frameset with their fork?
Yes, it can be ordered w/oCrankist
Feb 18, 2002 8:51 AM
You are all wrong!the Phantom
Feb 17, 2002 5:28 PM
You are all wrong! The Seven Axiom frame weather steel or Ti are some of the finest bikes on the road today. I make that statement as an owner of TWO Seven Axiom Ti bikes. I gladly disposed of a Merlin Extralight and spent the wad on the Seven, it takes all of 15 seconds of ride time to clearly note the significant difference. The Seven ride quality can be dialed into exactly what is requested, stiff B.B. and nicely compliant vertically. Combine this with a nice wheelset and you will ratchet up the riding ability by a notch or two from the Lemond. The Seven ride quality blows away anything from Litespeed or the really bogus new production Merlins. Be aware that Merlin now has the highest recall, failure and replacement rate in todays highend bike marketplace due to pathetic quality control. A very grim statistic.
The steel Seven frame is an excellent choice, fully custom painted mild to wild. All the Sevens bikes are hand crafted by real people, not some robot droid or a former nuclear plant worker from Boneheadville. Noting Litespeeds failure with lower priced frames with sloppy handling, squishy feeling, crappy finished frames from two years ago might suggest they cannot compete at the lower price tag. Bottom line, At the $1500 price, a Seven Axiom steel is an excellent choice. Also look at an Independent Fabrication, Serrota or Waterford for other excellent possibilities. Pony up another thousand and get the Ti Axiom, the last frame you will ever need.
You're a pretty good comedian PhantomVaparo
Feb 17, 2002 6:06 PM
Sounds like more of your usual phoney baloney anti Litespeed BS. Everyone in here knows you hate Litespeed, probably because you're some ex janitor they fired for stealing tissue paper from the urinals.

Do you know where Seven and IF got many of their welders from bright boy? Can you say Merlin and Litespeed, Because that's exactly where they came from, many of those same droids in Tennessee? Do you know who Eddie Merckx personally chose to fabricate all of his titanium frames genius? Can you say Litespeed, because they are the ones who do it, and they are the only ones who fabricate his ti in the USA. Are you now going to tell me that Merckx bikes also are poor quality, lets hear some more of your comedic drivel? Clowns like you are a complete joke. You have this misguided notion that simply because a builder produces more frames it translates into lower quailty. Please name for me genius all the failures Litespeed has had with their welds or any other significant warranty issues with their upper ti end bikes. It's funny how you name a lot of bad things about them but provide absolutely zero specifics, I wonder why that is janitor boy. Now get back to reading those classified adds, I hear McDonalds in Nashville is hiring your type.

Oh by the way, my Pinarello Opera puts the Seven Axiom steel to shame bigtime. It's more vertically compliant in the rear thanks to the carbon seatstays, stiffer in the bottom bracket and almost a full pound lighter in a size 56. It climbs better, handles better, sprints better and is more comfortable while being lighter, a lot lighter.
You're a pretty good comedian Phantomtmguy
Feb 17, 2002 8:35 PM
I am strongly considering the Opera. Let me know about your setup and other impressions. Presently riding Tig'd Nemo Marioni with '98 Record Ti.
You're a pretty good comedian PhantomVaparo
Feb 18, 2002 10:42 AM
I ride a 56cm Opera with full Campy Chorus and a Chris King headset. Ritchey WCS stem and Easton EC90 carbon bars, Thomson Elite seatpost and SI Flite saddle, custom built Zipp 303 clincher rims - Record hubs laced 28, 2X front and 32 3X driveside, 2X nondriveside, Hutchinson Carbon Pro tires.

The only reason I bought this bike is because a budy in my weekend riding group has one and he let me testride it one Saturday when he had other plans - these bikes are very hard to find built where a dealer will actually let you take one out for a meaningful testride. The three plus hour ride in the NC mountains that day was one of the best I have ever had on any frame. The bike accelerated uphill as well as if not better than some of my previous superlight aluminum framed bikes, it was very steady handling on high speed descents (that's one of my keys) and cornered like an Indy car. Light weight, the comfort of steel and carbon, great response and handling, what else could you want in a frame?

I love my current setup, with my Campy Chorus 10 I can blast up just about any hill there is and feel very confident flying down the other side. In western NC if your bike isn't very good climbing and descending you're in trouble on most group rides.
Thanks but...Crankist
Feb 18, 2002 9:24 AM
...for $2500 I could damn near buy a cuestick! No, it's just too much $$$. But I'll look at IF, Serrota &
Waterford. Thanks.
You are all wrong!legs
Feb 18, 2002 4:11 PM
why do you hate your merlin..?
there are much better Steel bikes for less moneybikejack
Feb 17, 2002 6:03 PM
the seven is just not that nice for the price. You can get a Mercier Draco with FULL Dura-Ace for $2000 ~ and the Mercier has Reynolds 853 with a Reynolds carbon fork. KHS also has a nice 853 Dura-Ace bike - but a little more and not the full group.
there are much better Steel bikes for less moneyVaparo
Feb 17, 2002 6:21 PM
You can get a custom Anvil steel bike built in just about any tubing of your choice for hundreds less than the Axiom Steel. Now is someone gonna tell me that they are also a poor quality bike built by a droid as well?
$2k for a tig steel frame and a carbon fork????colker
Feb 17, 2002 6:29 PM
i'd buy a steelman. a sachs. a if. ritchey. eisentraut mikkelsen. soulcraft. sycip or many many others that don't come to mind roght now before shelling 2k for a steel seven.
$2k for a tig steel frame and a carbon fork????SteelisReal
Feb 17, 2002 8:24 PM
Yep, I'd take a Sachs, Sycip, Steelman, Mikkelsen or Anvil way before I'd pay that for a Seven Axiom. Good to see someone in here knows their bikes.
don't forget Hampsten or Independent Fabrication -NMTig
Feb 18, 2002 10:34 AM
who the heck is Eisentraut?!whiner
Feb 17, 2002 8:30 PM
and why does he take so long to make my frame? I'm gonna cancel
who the heck is Eisentraut?!Moca
Feb 17, 2002 8:40 PM
You're having your frame built by him, but you don't know who he is???
Feb 18, 2002 9:14 AM
I am not locked into anything w/7. I've heard excellent reviews of their products and thought it a great
place to start for a custom bike. But rest assured I look into others now. Thanks for ths short list.
Soon as you get the Seven, you'll want something elseRetro
Feb 18, 2002 8:07 AM
You're hooked, man--the Zurich was your dream bike, and now you're eager to dump it for the Seven...might as well buy it now; you know you're going to justify it eventually.
Feb 18, 2002 9:18 AM
You've distilled the nature of obsessive types into one mean, dead accurate sentence. Hell,
now I'm looking for the one AFTER the Seven.
Big thanks to all who posted.Crankist
Feb 18, 2002 11:01 AM
Feb 18, 2002 5:05 PM
Look, it's obvious that between this and most other frames you won't get a big performance difference. None of the other bikes mentioned will significantly improve your performance either, even with the smallish weight differences. The truth is very few people here purchase according to performance, even though some try to convince themselves that they do. If we truly did, we'd ALL have aluminum frames. You can't beat the weight of aluminum for the price.
This (hopefully) is about what feels right. If you've demoed a Seven frame (or better yet, several of their frames so you really know what differences there are between their different tubesets), and that's what feels good to you and you don't mind $1500 for a steel frame, then great! I've ridden several of their Ti bikes, but none of their steel bikes. I can definitely vouch for how much you can tune the feel of those things, and figure it's only a matter of time before I get an Alaris myself. Now their steel stuff I'm not personally familiar with; it's up to you to test ride and inspect one. Steel is easier to weld than Ti, and even though it's a different process I suspect Seven will have it down.
I for one am secure with the fact that I buy almost all my bike equipment according to how it feels, not for placebo ideations of improved performance. Trust what you feel on the bike before someone who's never ridden one tries knocking it. You can even order the blasted things with your choice of toptube slope, if that alleged weight-difference is important. The people that claim Seven doesn't custom-this or custom-that typically could not possibly have ridden one, otherwise they would know better. Seven really is a great company, the truth is there are plenty of good companies, and diminishing returns apply; you're paying a decent premium for small custom benefits. If that's your cup of tea, so be it. I'm with you.
Testrides - Lemond and SevenDourbadakan
Feb 19, 2002 8:04 PM
I testrode a Lemond Ti followed immediately by a Seven Axiom Ti testride at my LBS. No noticeable ride difference between the two. IMO paying for a seven is buying a name and a perception, but not really a different riding bike. I actually liked the Lemond ride a bit better but perhaps that was the wheels or something else, who knows.