|Checked out CT1 and....||Undecided|
Dec 29, 2001 11:45 AM
|Went to LBS today to check out Colnago Ct1. There is a reason they can be had for $1700. The workmanship and finish was horrible and I was shocked. I lokked at 3 different frames and they all were horrible. Nice paint, but the ti had so many imperfections and dings/nicks that were not related to handling of frame, but imbedded under the paint.
They may ride nice, but anyone who claims Litespeeds have poor quality control are high. The Vortex that I went over centimeter by centimeter had no blemishes whatsoever but it is twice the price almost.
The Russian grade ti is far more inferior than what we do here in USA. I am glad I didn't order a CT1 online. I now narrowed it down to a stock Vortex or a custom Seven Axiom. Both are fine bikes, but what do you people think of them??
Dec 29, 2001 12:18 PM
|shocked.... LOL! ;-)
You must have pretty thin skin or be pretty insecure to feel this way about any bike.
JohnG <--- always this name
|Yes indeed, LazyRider has a thin skin.||Dog Breath|
Dec 29, 2001 8:49 PM
|"I have an older LS Classic which I love and is holding up perfectly"
"It seems that people have a problem with LS because they got "too big""
"The only reason why I bring up LS is because of the constant bashing that goes on here"
Sounds like LazyRider. Same old stale, rehashed themes. One can only wonder who else he is posting as.
If LS was such a great bike, why would somebody have to go through the trouble of writing obvious fiction to defend what they think is such a great bike. If "undecided" is not convinced himself about LS, how can he expect us to be?
Dec 29, 2001 10:14 PM
|What on earth are you talking about???? I am confused and not sure what you are implying and who you are refering to.
I am just looking for advice on some frames I narrowed my picks down to and just commented on what I discovered today about the CT1. I don't know who you are and by the unwarranted tirade you just left, I don't want to know who you are.
You should keep your comments to yourself, but as I can see be your history, you are a blowhard and tend to argue with many people. The anonymity of the keyboard makes people really brave. Doesn't it?
P.S. The LS Classic is their most popular frame and I am sure this guy Lazyrider and me aren't the only two that ride this bike and post on the boards. You've got problems my son!!!!
Dec 29, 2001 10:30 PM
|Yeah, that Dog Breath is a real douche. :-)|
|Do you have a||Undecided|
Dec 29, 2001 10:37 PM
|beef with this guy too??? He seems to rub people the wrong way or maybe he just had a bad day today.|
Dec 30, 2001 6:03 AM
|The LBS where you saw the CT1s wouldn't happen to be in the NY/NJ area, would it?|
|Oh it's funny all right.||Dog Breath|
Dec 30, 2001 8:26 AM
|And you thought "Jeffery", "Roadie77", "iridefar", "LazyRider", was a wierdo before.
R & A (I buy my Casati's there) told me he has been off the charts since his girlfriend dumped him for someone better. He needs to go have a beer with BigLeadOutGuy and forget about everything.
Further proof that LazyRider still lurks among us (talk about an unwarranted tirade):
Sh!t for brains "Shimano Update...Campy Fans Beware!! =)" 12/28/01 7:21pm
Dec 30, 2001 10:18 AM
|I am still perplexed by your ramblings Mr. Dogbreath. This kind of thing doesn't happen on other boards where I post regularly. Normally I couldn't care less, but I find your blurbs rather amusing.
This Lazyrider you speak of must have made some impact on your life that you would sit around waiting to accuse other's who you think might be him. Did you take your medication today???? Go out and ride, be productive.
|The Truth is often stranger than fiction.||Dog Breath|
Dec 30, 2001 11:29 AM
|I think that Mickey-Mac and myself hit the nail on the head.
Your reaction just reinforces it.
LazyRider is a joke. No, he had no impact on my life, and I find the way he continues to flame me with his various new names pathetic.
Anyone want to know who "undecided" is, just run a search of his other aliases. He seemingly would give his life to protect the honour of Litespeed frames and Shimano groupsets. His posts have a certain accent to them, which cannot be imitated. He would like you to think that he just arrived here. Yeah right.
sh!t for brains
|Well, you seems so sure of yourself||Undecided|
Dec 30, 2001 11:47 AM
|but I think you are just strange. I also find it strange you feel attacked when you are so guilty of attacking others. Here is an example of the type of person you are. You are arrogant and rude and disillusioned to think that all these aliases this guy Lazyrider is using is only one person. I believe many find you annoying.
Posted By: Dog Breath Posted On: 12/11/2001 7:48:26 PM
Those handlebars are making me very angry for some reason.
If you have been riding for that long, you deserve whatever makes you happy. Your bike has some personality.
I must disem bark now, for I am about to trash some trendies lifeless Trek.
|Other examples of how others view Dog Breath||Undecided|
Dec 30, 2001 1:15 PM
|You see, look in the mirror Dog Breath. You are arrogant and an opinionated blowhard. You really aren't fooling anyone.
Posted by: javagenki Dec-10-01, 09:37 PM
he shows up every now and then, blasts some poor guy's bike, and then climbs up on an Italian steel soap box. He usually knows his stuff but is a bit of a knob. If you're not into waxing over the finer points of Italian crome rust rates, ignore him and he will go away
Posted by: Goose Step Dec-10-01, 08:28 PM
My snide response was directed at Dog Breath not you. To be honest I thought Dog Breath's responses to your posts were crude and offensive so I felt I'd throw my weight behind YOU in defense. I think you mistook it for an attack on you. I'd say the majority on this board who haven't spoken up would gladly welcome you here.
|Other examples of how others view Dog Breath||Undecided|
Dec 30, 2001 2:00 PM
|Posted by: Erik W Dec-10-01, 08:38 PM
Don't be so defensive about Dog Breath's comments. You have two nice bikes there. Don't slam Roadies either, a lot of us are also MTBers. I'd consider myself a road rider first but I have over 1000 mikes on my MTB. Don't let a couple of bad eggs spoil this site for you. You are much more welcome then Dog Breath ever will be.
P.S. If you go to the photo gallery, this guy Dog Breath is SO NEGATIVE and criticizes people's rides without justificaiton. People are proud of their rides and this guy posts negative comments on so many people's pics.
I can see Lazyrider really gets under your skin too. Are you obsessed? He hasn't posted in while and doesn't seem to be afraid of you anyway. So why would he post under aliases?
|A little comic relief for the end of the year||mickey-mac|
Dec 30, 2001 3:33 PM
|Lazywriter has been working on some new material during his recent absence from the board. This is pure gold.|
Dec 30, 2001 3:58 PM
|Are you and Dog Breath one in the same???? All I did was make a comment about the CT1s I saw. I don't particularly want another LS and am leaning towards the Seven. However, the Vortex would be a more high tech/faster ride I think.
I am guessing that the Seven will be more stable and ride like my Classic, so I may want a different feel. Why can't I get answers from people wihtout all the BS??? I am truly undecided. Why are you getting involved in my spat with Dog Breath??
|Stop it, you're killin' me! (nm)||mickey-mac|
Dec 30, 2001 4:50 PM
|Some Little Fellow Has W-a-a-a-y Too much time on his hands||jtolleson|
Dec 30, 2001 5:54 PM
|Sheesh. Getta life, Undecided.|
Dec 30, 2001 10:20 AM
|you guys thing this is true? If you're right, it's the best LS/Colnago flame bait I've seen yet! LOL!|
|Lets put two and two together here.||Dog Breath|
Dec 30, 2001 11:39 AM
|Not only do both "LazyRider" and "undecided" ride older Litespeed Classics, they both have the same M/O (method of operation) when it comes to arguing the merits of Litespeeds
What a strange coincidence. And you are confused, and have no idea about which I speak? Yeah right. Total BS, just like your review of the CT1's you saw.
|re: Checked out CT1 and....||gtx|
Dec 29, 2001 12:45 PM
|"anyone who claims Litespeeds have poor quality control are high"
don't want to start a LS bashing fest, but you can't tell much by visually inspecting a built bike on the floor of a bike shop. Once you build up ten or so LS frames (or frames by any builder), then you can begin to judge a builder's qc. From the bikes I built up in the early 90s (and I'm sure things have changed) I'd say LS isn't the best, but not the worst, either. However, a top quality LBS should make sure your LS frame is dialed by the time you get it. Regarding Colnago, I saw some scary stuff with their bikes, but that was in the 80s (the Italian bikes I owned during the 80s caused me to start buying from small US builders exclusively). If you care about perfect qc and want ti, you should add Moots to your short list. Lots of great bikes out there, and you don't necessarily need to spend $3000 for the frame...
Dec 29, 2001 1:09 PM
|insecurity have to do with wanting a well made bike? The reason I was shocked to see a Colango with so many flaws is because of the reputaiton they have. I am not kidding when I say that the frames I held and they weren't built up, were terrible.
There was weird coloring at the welds, little pin head size indentations all throughout the ti etc. The owner of the LBS even told me that the 6/4 they claim to use isn't technically 6/4 by USA standards. There are some missing ingredients in the manufacturing of the Russian ti that makes it not quite 6/4. I wanted to buy the bike because it was more affordable, but I am afraid to after what I have seen.
The only reason why I bring up LS is because of the constant bashing that goes on here. The frames I have seen are consistently well made amd come with lifetime warranty. Colnago does not and that says a lot and now I know why. The C40 seems much better made than the CT1 and I can see that ti should be left to the experts like LS, Seven etc.
This is only my observation but I am an informed consumer and trust my own instincts. I am sure the function of the bike isn't affected by these imperfections, but are these imperfections indicative of more serious QC problems. Plus I have heard rumors that Ernesto Colnago sends his second rate frames to the USA.
|did you mean to reply to CT1?||gtx|
Dec 29, 2001 1:22 PM
|Not sure if that response was meant for me...
Personally, I'd be very happy to ride or own either a LS or a Colnago. I also happen to like Colnago geometry quite a bit, and like it that the frames come in 1cm incriments, varying geomerty slightly with each size. But when it comes to putting down my hard earned cash, I'd be looking at small builders.
|did you mean to reply to CT1?||Undecided|
Dec 29, 2001 1:39 PM
|Yeah, it was not meant for you. I agree that I like to support the smaller guy. That is why I am leaning towards Seven. There is something really appealing about the Vortex even though it is not custom. I am not exaggerating though when I tell you the CT1s I looked ate were horribly done.
I have an older LS Classic which I love and is holding up perfectly, but may want to try something new. The Sevens are so coveted because they are rare. I don't care about exclusivity and that is why I would buy another LS. It seems that people have a problem with LS because they got "too big". However, I assure you that if Seven started selling as many frames as LS, they too would be accused of poor build quality etc.
It is like a teenager who begins to dislike a song once it becomes too popular because it no longer has that sense of exclusivity. When I bought my Classic, LS was not as big as they are now and everyone raved about them. My LS still rides the same as it did before they "sold out". Contrary to what people think, LS is still a relatively small operation compared to the big bike companies. They only produce in the thousands per year and not even 10,000. So most people are misinformed on this fact.
Seven will give me that sense of exclusivity and custom fit, but the Vortex I think will be a more high tech ride. We'll see.
|did you mean to reply to CT1?||gtx|
Dec 29, 2001 3:39 PM
|the Vortex is pretty high tech, but I think it's kind of expensive (unless you buy it at the end of the year) and I'm not really clear on what you get for the money besides a 6/4 sticker and some fancy shaped tubes. Plus, at over 3 pounds (3.1 pounds in the 55cm c-t) the Vortex could hardly be considered a lightweight by today's standards. The Moots with its low tech straight guage tubing is 3 pounds in the 55cm (c-t) and about $1000 less. And the Steelman SR made out of Reynolds 853 is 3.5 pounds in the 56cm (c-c) and about $2000 less. And if you want exclusive, I don't think ti is the way to go--can't believe how many ti frames I see out there riding on the weekend--literally every other bike today (seems to be mostly steel and AL during the week). For exclusivity and great fit, check out Richard Sachs.|
|well... i had a LS and it wasn't flawless.||colker|
Dec 30, 2001 4:07 AM
|the obed, a mountain bike. it had aluminum inserts on the seat and head tube. they creacked, made noises. |
the drop outs were ugly. the bike flexed where it shouldn't and geometry lacked some inspiration.
i moved to a steel ibis mojo and it was a world of difference in ride quality, detailing and looks.
now i'm ridin an old steel pinarello. the details on paint, drop outs etc... are wonderfull, sometimes they are over the top and absurd.there's not a swiss qc going on but it looks something made with pride.now, the ride is... nervous, quick, fast but stable at the same time. no flex at all. there's some experience going on with those italian bikes.
my point is... i would choose based on geometry and ride first. details, welds etc.. would go second on my list.
Dec 29, 2001 1:59 PM
|I mean, I saw some sloppy Colnagos in the early 80s and I'd be hesitant to buy a new frame covered with dings and nicks and pinhead-sized indentations myself. I believe that you saw these, but I haven't observed such defects on any of the CT1s I've seen and I've been over my own with a fine-tooth comb (ok, no actual comb, but I've handled the frame and looked at it plenty close). So I have to wonder where your dealer is getting his frames and who is packing them. I mean, the particulars just sound strange (more common complaints are slightly bulkier welds and maybe a paint-drip here or there, though). |
You should buy what you like. The litespeeds I've seen look just fine--very neat welds at least and although they're fairly common around here people who ride them seem to like them.
|re: Checked out CT1 and....||GIV|
Dec 29, 2001 1:08 PM
|WHOA! Undicided, you just made a negative comment against a Colnago No,no,no,. CT1 is the resident Colonago Cop and name caller if you don't happen to agree with his position on Colnago. You have been accused of thin skin and insecurity now quit making those type of comments and get with program.
By the way I find the Craftsmanship much better on the Litespeed and Seven also, I have ridden the Colnago CT1 and it road sweet, As mentioned before the paint jobs on the Colnago's are second to none maybe if they put some of that time into the physical construction it would be at the same level as the LS or Seven. I to, chose the Litespeed over all the others, they met the Criteria I was after.
|Euro finish quality...||Nessism|
Dec 29, 2001 1:39 PM
|It's my understanding that the Euro market is less particular about finish quality compared to the US market. This is due to the fact that most Euro riders look at a bike as more of a tool and less of an ornament.
As far as the Russian grade of Ti being inferior, how do you know this? External surface damage is not related to the alloy of the metal and may have been caused during handling at any point in the distribution process.
|Euro finish quality...||Undecided|
Dec 29, 2001 1:46 PM
|Here is a blurb I saved about Russian ti.
Russia has recently been identified as a possible source of low-cost, high-strength titanium alloys. The appeal seems to be twofold: First, in theory, Russia's costs of labor and electricity are lower than the West's. However, costs are also lower because those manufacturers offering tubing for sports applications have not invested in up-to-date equipment and processes for optimum quality. Second, Russian producers reportedly have a more extensive array of high-strength alloys. This, however, is a misunderstanding that arises from Russia's labeling system for its 200 alloys. In fact, many Russian alloys are similar to U.S. alloys, but carry different names or slightly different formulations. For example, Russia's equivalent to 6-4 is called VT-6. The properties of these alloys are nearly identical. And Russia's VT-5 alloy has similar performance specifications to 3-2.5. In 1993, the Raleigh Cycle Company began distributing a frame featuring tubing manufactured in Salda, Russia (the frame is welded in England). This tubing, called BT01, is a Commercially Pure titanium approximately equivalent to U.S. Grade 4, or Russian grade VT1-1 (64 ksi yield). The yield strength is roughly 70,000 psi, an increase of 40,000 psi over U.S. Grade 1. The tubing is strengthened to this level through oxygen induction (or -oxygen hardening); oxygen content tolerance is 2.6 times higher for Grade 4 than Grade 1. Nitrogen induction is also employed in BT01 to increase yield. Although yield does increase with oxygen induction, ductility is reduced by about 80%; that is, elongation falls from 27% to 6%, creating a much more brittle structure. Fatigue strength is also reduced. Merlin has worked with a few groups from Russia for the past four years, but so far the quality of their products has been unacceptably low. Raising the quality will require heavy investments in tooling, processing and equipment, which in turn will increase costs, probably to levels equal to or greater than those in the U.S. Reliable delivery is also problematic, in part due to Russia's political situation. With no assurance of a stable supply or guaranteed shipments, the immediate future for Russian titanium seems questionable at best.
Dec 29, 2001 4:05 PM
|I'm not so sure that the entire Russian Ti industry should be dismissed based on a short blurb from Merlins web site. The Russian defense industry has extensive experience with Ti materials. As I recall the USSR even manufactured Ti hull submarines. Making suitable Ti tubing for a bike frame is not all that difficult in comparison.
I'll accept that some of the surface imperfections on the CT1 tubing may very well have come from the tubing mill. I just doubt that these imperfections are more than cosmetic.
Dec 30, 2001 8:55 AM
|European countries are much stricter about VOC emmissions than the US, so their painting cannot be as "good" as ours, because they are unable to use the same paints. Deep colors and thick clearcoats require some pretty expensive air-cleaning units, so the Euro bike manufacturers don't do them. Instead, they put more money into complicated designs that 'trick' the eye into thinking it's a great paint job. It's actually a pretty clever thing to do- and certainly not any cheaper. As a result though, some Italian made bikes are painted in the U.S.
On the Colnago side of things, when I sold them, I was consistently appalled at the poor finish quality. Decals weren't on straight, chrome bits had problems, etc.
Interestingly though, I still want a C40...
|VOC is not the issue||Nessism|
Dec 30, 2001 12:36 PM
|Just because a manufactuer uses a low VOC paint does not mean that the paint is inferior. The solvent in the paint are what cause the high VOC's. These solvents are mostly a carrier and are intended to aid the paint in flowing out once they hit the substrate. To combat the difficulty in spraying low VOC paints the industry developed new style spray guns known as HVLP (high volume low pressure). A low VOC paint sprayed with a HVLP guy is the standard these days, even in the US.
The reason the euro mfgers. paint is not as nice as their US counterparts, is because they do not choose to make it so. The technolgy is available but they do not want to spend the money and time.
|I'll talk to the engineers,||TJeanloz|
Dec 30, 2001 3:31 PM
|But in our factory, we had to spend ~$1,000,000 on an air scrubbing machine because low VOC paints couldn't do the job well enough. Actually, as I recall, it was more the clearcoat than the paint itself...|
|I'll talk to the engineers,||Nessism|
Dec 30, 2001 7:20 PM
|Filtered air is an important requirement for all paint systems inorder to avoid foreign particulate (dirt) contamination. The VOC's don't have anything to do with this.
Modern paint systems require an enviromentally controlled paint booth or conveyor system for production. Depending on the local government regulations, either a low VOC solvent based paint system or a waterborn paint system will be employed. Either way, a high quality durable coating will result if the process is good.
Most automotive paint systems these days employ what is termed a thermosetting paint. With this type of paint heat, 400 degrees F., is required to cause proper cross-linking of the paint structure. Thermosetting paints provide a state of the art coating system, the fact that this is a low VOC process is an added bonus. I'm not sure if any bicycle manufactuers are using a paint system like this but they could if the envinromental considerations require it.
The bottom line is that technology exists for good quality paint to be used on a bicycle. There is no reason that the paint on a bike should be any worse that what can be found on car.
Dec 30, 2001 11:51 PM
|All three of the Colnagos in our household are flawless. My boyfriend bought a 2000 Dream Reflex, and I have an '01 Dream Plus LX14 and an '01 Dream Cross in AD4. Every one of them has top-notch paint. I'm amazed at how well the masks were done, especially on the fluted top and down tubes. Tricky stuff, and the fades on my LX14 are incredibly long and flowing. No bubbles, drips, blistering or dust trapped in the clearcoat - in contrast to the '99 Trek 2300 I had, which had the most pathetic QC I've ever seen on any bike - the seat tube wasn't installed straight into the BB lug, the welds looked like a 5-year old had done them, and on the bottom of the right chainstay there was an obvious mark where a bug had gotten stuck in the paint - they did remove the bug, but clearcoated the mark in place!
We have also been able to laugh at all the folks who've said of our Colnagos "oh you breathe on them and they'll chip". None of them has shown dings or wear yet, despite the fact that they are all raced and ridden a lot.
I was told that some Colnagos are manufactured in Eastern Europe, not Italy, and that the Eastern European ones have very poor QC - but I don't know this for a fact.
|re: Checked out CT1 and....||tr|
Dec 29, 2001 4:07 PM
|I wouldn't limit poor quality ti to the russians only. And like others, i wouldn't say litespeed is number one in quality nor the worst by far. The material properties of ti are between steel and aluminum, so that is what you get. Now for handling of ti in frame process, that is another story. The russians were using ti for military applications long before the biking industry decided to jump on the band wagon. If it were me i would get the seven, but i would consider a carbon bike for that price. I think a good carbon frame is worth the price more than the ti bike. But if it is ti, then go for the seven. Obviously, like your note at the bottom says, so called american bikes have used russian ti, this does not surprise me at all.|
Dec 29, 2001 4:28 PM
|I've never seen a CT1 up close, hopefully those weren't the cream of the crop.
If you're spending that kind of money, why not get a C-40? No quality problems there. A C-40 with a fork, stem and seatpost can be had for less than a Vortex. Great ride and lot better looking than dull grey Ti.
Dec 29, 2001 5:23 PM
|Colnago isn't exactly known for great QC, just garish paint schemes. You want the straightest Ti frame out there? Moots! But it'll be straight gauge. Hi-end Litespeeds are nice, but for that kind of money you may as well go custom with a Seven, Spectrum, or Serotta. How could you overlook Serotta's Ti (My personal favorite)? Those beefy Colorado Concept butted & swaged tubes look so cool, you've got a ton of paint/decal options, and the Serotta dropouts make Seven look like a big yawn IMO but it's all personal preference at that level.
I agree U.S. builders do the best steel & Ti frames, and you'll get better warranty coverage to boot. Or try phoning Italy to speak with the guy who built your Colnago.
You can do that with Seven/Moots/Serotta/Spectrum. If you want hi-end Ti, and a dreamy ride from a great builder, look at those 4 companies and pick your fave, you won't go wrong.
|re: Checked out CT1 and....||soflaguy|
Jan 1, 2002 10:07 AM
|I recently bought a used CT1 from my LBS. The finish is the clearcoat, the workmanship is flawless - with the only digns coming from the previous dingbat owner. Ride is awesome, all of the welds are clean & neat. I guess that there must be a wide varience in QC - maybe check another store?|| |