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mail order co. not playing nice(36 posts)

mail order co. not playing nicejp2
Dec 14, 2001 9:30 AM
Purchaced a frameset by mail order. had headset installed and obviously fork cut. Upon trying to install rear wheel before buid up of frame, discovered wheel would not go in. Then measured dropout spacing, comes out to 128 inside to inside. Tried 2 other rear wheels and was only able to wedge 1 in. Then called mail order outfit and they start the run around. They say it is within tolerances and that 2 mm would not have any effect. Hello, the wheel will not go into the frame. Seems like an effect to me. Upon being asked for a refund, they say they may not be able to give a full refund as the fork has been cut.(cut with 3cm of spacers).

Is this anyway to treat a repeat customer(well over $3k to this company in the past 2 years) with an obviously defective product. Yes, I consider it defective when the wheel will not go into the frame.

Any suggestions on how to tactfully deal with this to my own satisfaction. I have not named the company yet, as it is still possible that they will come through.
re: mail order co. not playing nicehern
Dec 14, 2001 9:35 AM
what rear dropouts are so stiff that they can't be pulled open 2mm to fit a wheel in? if anything, ride a bit with the one, and the others should fit. sheesh
Dec 14, 2001 9:48 AM
not really the issue. The wheel to be used does not go in. Had to use one without a skewer/cassette, no rear der/chain installed. The kind of force needed to install would likely result in damage to the frame/individual installing the wheel. BTW, no riding it will not make it easier inthe future. Bike it is replacing is 128.5mm(also missized) and has been ridden for 3 years. Wheels are still difficult to get in and out of it. Does not lend itself to a wheel change in a road race.

Personally, I don't like trying to spread aluminum dropouts, at all. If they can't get the spacing right, I hate to think about the alignment. It is one of those carbon wishbone/aluminum frames.
Dec 14, 2001 2:51 PM
I gotta agree with the orignal post. 2mm is not much and will work just fine.

won't workjp2
Dec 14, 2001 2:53 PM
you might think so just by the numbers, but 'til you try it, you don't know. The wheel won't go in, carbon doesn't bend, how is it going to work.
Look Frames were made with 128mm spacing.Spokeman
Dec 14, 2001 3:40 PM
My Look all-carbon frame, circa 1994, was made with 128mm rear dropout spacing so one could use either 126 or 130mm rear hubs. I only used 130mm hubs and never had a problem with it.

Then again, when I stomped on it, the stays would flex so much it would autoshift. But I digress.

Dec 14, 2001 6:12 PM
Man, those must be stiff-assed stays! As a comparison, I spread a 126mm steel frame to 130mm and that wasn't even difficult.

Good luck with the vendor.... or better yet just kick this up to the CC company. I think the CC folks will want a paper trail from you so make sure you document everything very well. If need be send a registered letter to the vendor.

Hey, I didn't dig through the whole thread.... who is the frame maker??

good luck
re: mail order co. not playing nicegtx
Dec 14, 2001 10:01 AM
why are you asking for a refund? why not just ask for a new frame? you can keep the cut fork and hs. But I wouldn't accept that frame, and they should make it right.
re: mail order co. not playing nicejp2
Dec 14, 2001 11:18 AM
ever play that game? I have, usually there is something wrong with the next one too. Would have to pay to get the hs removed and then installed again. Looking back at it, it was a bad idea, the craftsmanship just isn't there.
re: mail order co. not playing nicegtx
Dec 14, 2001 12:37 PM
"Looking back at it, it was a bad idea, the craftsmanship just isn't there."--there ya go. Top builder's don't let misaligned frames out the of the shop, and the same goes for top dealers (though AL is especially tricky--and obviously, it depends to some degree how much this frame retails for--you can't expect perfection from inexpensive, mass produced frames). And if they tried to charge you labor for the hs removal and install, I wouldn't deal with them again.
Stiff 'emgrzy
Dec 14, 2001 10:14 AM
Tell the credit card company not to pay them - hopefully you're not too far in the billing cycle. I'd also take the intitiative and send the frame back. They probably figure you're over reacting - dump it on their doorstep and let them take a look at it themselves. Ultimately what you pay for is what you get. You went mail order to save some money. Ain't no reason why you can't return a defective product that's unused - you have that right. You'll probably have to keep the fork, but like the other poster said, you'll need it for when they send you the new frame. Do not be surprised if they simply spread the stays apart and try to send you the same frame. Tell them they'd be better off sending it to someone else.

Ultimately you need to kick things up a few levels and talk to someone who actually cares - not some flunkie on the phone trying to meet a quota.

Personally I'd spread the stays and get it dialed in - how do you think they do it in the first place? Although tweaking much aluminum isn't advised. Could it be that the frame was squeezed while in shipping? Possibly damage was done by the shipper - UPS is pretty rough on things in my book. You should see what they do to glass and quartz. Of course they'll counter that things aren't packed as well as they should be - which is true.
did they brace the drops during shipping?FredK
Dec 14, 2001 10:36 AM
Did they put in a dummy axle or block of wood to make sure the rear spacing wasn't messed up by shipping the frame? And when you received the frame, did you see if you could hear the frame moving around in the box or not? This may make a difference if you plan on making a claim with your shipping carrier.

Finally, these things can happen if an Al frame isn't perfect out of the heat treatment and when it is realigned, it likely will spring back to it's misaligned spec.
did they brace the drops during shipping?jp2
Dec 14, 2001 11:27 AM
yes, they had the characteristic plastic thing wedged in there. Box did not rattle around. Theses folks usually pack frames pretty well. I purchased a cervelo from them in the past, and it is fine.
Stiff 'emjp2
Dec 14, 2001 11:25 AM
Yeah, but at this point we are more than willing to spend up to 2k on a good frame fork combo. I'd not trust myself to spread them w/o breaking something. I have that tendency. Also, wouldn't trust any shop in town(and there are a few) to do that either.(seen 'em at work) I will contact the credit card company, hadn't thought of that.

BTW, how would you suggest bending carbon wishbone seatstays? Thought carbon doesn't bend so well.
Stiff 'em AND...raboboy
Dec 14, 2001 11:27 AM
send them some dog poo.

Heh, sorry. that was a bit inappropriate. :) the coolest thing...i have ever seen. nmJs Haiku Shop
Dec 14, 2001 11:56 AM the coolest thing...i have ever seen. nmraboboy
Dec 14, 2001 12:12 PM
worth a haiku? Ahh, nevermind. I don't know if such a thing should be posted here (or anywhere for that matter).
that would violate several laws of the universe. nmJs Haiku Shop
Dec 14, 2001 12:15 PM
What - a sh*tty haiku? Don't some already exist? ;-) (nm)grzy
Dec 14, 2001 12:20 PM
Dec 14, 2001 12:19 PM
I wonder what they charge to NOT pack it so well? ;-)

Naw, bending carbon NEVER works - it either springs back or fails. It has everything to do with the stress strain curve. The only people competent enough to assess your situation is an experienced frame builder. What you're probably looking at is something that was shipped frm the factory this way - what brand/model is the frame?

Is it just a dropout thing or is it a frame misalignement problem? How about contacting the company that built the frame - chances are they don't want any of their stuff out there with poor quality. the mail order house is usually just a middle man. Boxes in one side and boxes out the other and hopefully they make a profit.
Kewl, my dogs make enough doodoojp2
Dec 14, 2001 12:36 PM
I have emailed the company. Their main foray is not bikes, well not road bikes 'til this past year(uh, they make skis, skates, so I mistakenly believed they could make bikes). I believe(help) that they have them made in some unmentionable place.(overseas) No response yet.

I just question the judgement of the middle man saying that this bike is within tolerances, when a wheel won't fit into the dropouts.(mine too in hind sight for ordering it in the first place) They said they would check and prep the frame before shipping. This must not have included inserting wheels, as the paint was fresh and unblemished when it arrived.

Every year I get older, I get somewhat wiser.
K2 is my guessJack S
Dec 14, 2001 3:51 PM
Come on - with the amount of views of this thread....PatM
Dec 14, 2001 12:44 PM
Cough up the information....
Mail Order Company Name
We have a right to know !
Come on - with the amount of views of this thread....jp2
Dec 14, 2001 12:50 PM
you have more than enough information to piece it together.

I don't need to name names. I am still trying to resolve the issue without slander.(sort of)

Now if it was a company that has sold me poor quality in the past and replaced it with more poor quality, well then I might name that "evil empire", but I haven't gotten there yet.
Stess-strain curveHooke
Dec 14, 2001 12:58 PM
What the heck does that mean? How does it apply?
Dec 14, 2001 4:03 PM
>Naw, bending carbon NEVER works - it either springs back or fails. It has everything to do with the
>stress strain curve. The only people competent enough to assess your situation is an experienced
>frame builder. What you're probably looking at is something that was shipped frm the factory this way -
>what brand/model is the frame?

While you can't permanently re-space a CF rear triangle, there have been quite a few bikes made over the years with spacing around 128mm to allow the use of either 126mm or 130mm hubs. You just spread or squeeze the stays each time you put on a wheel. The stays bend elastically and pop back to their original spacing when the wheel is removed. Before deciding this frame is definitely defective, I'd check the manufacturer's specifications to be sure they did intend for it to have 130mm rear spacing instead of 128mm.
It's Supergo, isn't it?Just a lucky guess (nm)
Dec 14, 2001 11:39 AM
Dec 14, 2001 11:41 AM
you'd probably be surprised who it is
Excel Sports, Bouldernfm-
Dec 14, 2001 11:42 AM
Dec 14, 2001 3:53 PM
What other place online sells Cervelo frames? :-)kenyee
Dec 14, 2001 5:25 PM
Since you said you bought a Cervelo from them earlier this year...
Excel is the only other one, but they don't sell Cervelo road frames...
La Bicycletta also sells Cervelo - (nm)Erik W
Dec 14, 2001 8:55 PM
If it were Supergo...biknben
Dec 14, 2001 12:31 PM
...It would have been more than 2mm off. :-)
My Supergo bike...ACE-
Dec 15, 2001 12:07 AM
was perfect, and they gave me great service!
If it were Supergo...beck
Dec 15, 2001 4:41 PM
i received a Gitane Team Altec2 frame from Supergo and the spacing was an unacceptable 126mm.I returned it with no arguments from Supergo-They refunded shipping and sent UPS prepaid label for return.Supergo may screw up but they have always made good on their mistakes.
Dec 14, 2001 3:56 PM
First, as grzy said, I'd protest the charge with the cc company. They will send you a form to detail the problems. They will then present that to the retailer for their side of the story. Meanwhile, you don't have to pay.

I'd box it up and prepare to send it back, but don't quite yet. You might get stuck paying and not have the bike.

Three cm of spacers on a fork steer tube is a huge amount -- that's over an inch. That should be good enough for anyone else. Besides, it's their fault the bike is defective, not yours. What did they expect you to do?

Dispute the charge; at the same time, I'd contact the manufacturer of the frame; for all you know, they'd be horrified to know there is a problem. Maybe they'll make it right from the top down.