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Vitamin C(35 posts)

Vitamin Cmorey
Dec 6, 2001 6:56 AM
As an author on nutrition and vitamins, and as a former competitive athlete, I feel Vitamin C is a necessary part of training. It is heat labile, destroyed by cooking in iron pots, and water soluble. Where do we get it? Primates and Guinea pigs are the only animals that do not make the final metabolic conversion to C from our food.
Vitamin C promotes cell integrity, reduces capillary fragility (bruises), and helps in bolstering the immune system. It also helps reduce muscle soreness and stiffness.
Take it, however read labels and learn about vit C.
re: Vitamin CJon
Dec 6, 2001 7:16 AM
Morey,

What are your dose recommendations? I take 1 gm per day. Linus Pauling used to recommend 6 to 10 gms!
re: Vitamin Cmorey
Dec 6, 2001 7:25 AM
When I was competing I took 8-10 gms/day. You have to work up to this dosage because it can cause diarrhea. What I would recommend is about 3-4000 mg/day. Not taken at once, maybe morning,noon and at dinner. It is absorbed best without Iron. Iron is an oxidant, c is an anti-oxidant.
I met Linus Pauling at Cal Tech. when I was a grad student.
A very smart man. Do not fall for timed release or sustained release, it is BS.
Isn't he the only two discipline Nobel winner?AlexR
Dec 6, 2001 8:18 AM
Was it one for bio. and one for chem? Somebody please jog my memory.

And did Churchill win a Lit. and a Peace?

Anyway, just trying to remember.

Alex
Isn't he the only two discipline Nobel winner?morey
Dec 6, 2001 8:27 AM
Linus Pauling is the only 2 discipline winner of the Nobel. He would have won a third if they would have accepted his research into vitamin C. They thought he was old and crazy.
he is....Jack S
Dec 6, 2001 12:22 PM
cure AIDS with vit C? riiiight....
Chemistry and Peace (nm)bikedodger
Dec 6, 2001 8:37 AM
Marie Curie won two also, Chemistry and Physics (nm)bikedodger
Dec 6, 2001 9:02 AM
Marie Curie won two also, Chemistry and Physics (nm)morey
Dec 6, 2001 10:18 AM
I did not know this.
good point (and question)Duane Gran
Dec 6, 2001 7:25 AM
I currently supplement with vitamin C as well as others, but I try my hardest to get all the vitamins via a good diet. Currently I'm using products from biometics.com which I've been quite happy with.

A question for you: I've heard that people should be careful about not taking too much Vitamin E. Can you elaborate on this and mention if there are others which warrant caution?
good point (and question)morey
Dec 6, 2001 7:30 AM
Vitamin D is toxic in very high doses. UV light will convert ergosterol to D in our bodies. I would take minimal amount. Vit E can produce headaches, blood pressure problems in very high doses. You would be talking about 1500 mg and up. Be careful with E. Do not take Mixed Tocopherols. Try to take only high grade d-Alpha tocopherol. Natural is better than synthetic, up to 5 times more active.
good point (and question)morey
Dec 6, 2001 8:05 AM
I will put exerpts from my book a little at a time on this forum, maybe it will impact some readers? If you email me at netso7@netzero.com I will send you an appropriate chapter from my book.
Isn't this, uh, just disguised spam?Retro
Dec 6, 2001 8:37 AM
Be interesting to check the vitamin C levels of the urine of people to take megadoses. If it's running out as fast as you pour it in, how can it be doing you any good?
Isn't this, uh, just disguised spam?morey
Dec 6, 2001 8:44 AM
If you take urine samples you are also going to find b-vitamins etc. Urine is like a river, it takes unabsorbed items, toxic items etc. out of the body. However, vit C should be taken in small doses, many times a day. Is eating one giant meal effective, I would think not. So taking a megadose or any dose 1 time a day is not only ineffective it is stupid.
What about Vit A?brider
Dec 6, 2001 8:10 AM
I've read about Vit A toxicity, but I've also heard it's bunk. What's your take on this, and what would be a max daily dosage for a 150lb male in his 30s?
What about Vit A?morey
Dec 6, 2001 8:17 AM
Vit A can cause headaches, and even be toxic in some cases.
Most of the formulations are geared for this eventuality. Because of its availability in food? just take the minimum dosage. If you eat well, are healthy you should not need more than the minimum.
Vitamin C and joint painscottfree
Dec 6, 2001 8:43 AM
I've seen claims lately that Ester C can promote joint health. Did some research, and found that studies have shown marked improvement-- rapid improvement, like three days -- when hefty doses of Ester C were administered to dogs with hip dysplasia. When administered in combination with Glucosamine/Chondroitin, long-term improvement was noted radiographically in a significant numberof cases.

I've been trying this regimen on my dysplasia-afflicted Mastiff for the past two months, and I'm satisfied he HAS improved, dramatically, even with the recent cool, damp weather (which exacerbates his symptoms).

Now I'm trying it for my knees.
Vitamin C and joint painmorey
Dec 6, 2001 8:47 AM
Because it improves membrane and cell integrity, joint pain can be relieved, if not improved. I do not want to prescribe, but from everything I have read, my research and my personal use, I would say yes!
re: Vitamin C & Edzrider
Dec 6, 2001 8:51 AM
I don't take vitamins every day more because I'm cheap and forgetful than being opposed to the idea. I have started taking Vitamins E&C the day of and a few days after ultra events. They, along with Arnica, seem speed the healing of sore muscles. They would most likely help my recovery after daily workouts, but since I don't feel sore I don't think to take them.
re: Vitamin C & Emorey
Dec 6, 2001 9:07 AM
As a competitive bodybuilder, I made it part of my training to take vitamins. I can see most peoples problems. However, the majority of our food is cooked to death, exposed to light etc. etc. Couple this with most peoples poor digestion and assimilation, we need supplements. Unfortunately, the industry is rampant with fraud and shitty methods of manufacture. My suggestion is to read a good Biochemistry or Physiology text and/or reputable book on nutrition and get educated. Education beats condemnation any day.
Vitamin C and foodpeloton
Dec 6, 2001 11:55 AM
Best sources in the world are still food though for vitamin C, or any other really. I believe that the real, natural vitamins and minerals are better than the lab made variety for effectiveness and potency. I don't think it's too hard to get enough vitamin C from a healthy diet. Right now, Clementines, a citrus fruit variety of a tangerine, are in season. If you haven't ever tried those- go to the store right now. Bet you can't eat just five. No joke, I've eaten 10lbs of them in the past two weeks.

The tough part about diet is for most people it is just easier to get proper nutrition from a multi-vitamin than it is to learn about and then prepare meals with adequate nutrient density. Like you said, education really is key. I think it is worth the effort though to learn about diet and nutrition so as to be able to gain adequate nutrients from food sources and their proper preparation and to only have to turn to supplementation as a plan B.

What are your thoughts on naturally occuring vs. artificially produced vitamins, Morey? Pros, cons?
Vitamin C and foodmorey
Dec 6, 2001 12:03 PM
If you define Vitamin C as Ascorbic Acid, then we can make
synthetic Ascorbic Acid. However, when you bite into a Clementine you get Hesperidin, Rutin etc. not just Ascorbic Acid. I am not a big supplementation freak, however I know how the majority of people eat, pretty shitty. Take vitamin C: Orange Juice is Pasteurized, which destroys almost all the vitamin C. It is subjected to light which again destroys vit C. on and on. We live in a REFINED world! It is always best to get the natural source.
Vitamin C and foodpeloton
Dec 6, 2001 12:17 PM
I'll probably get blasted for saying this, but here goes...
The refined food thing is something I have been thinking about quite a bit over the past several months, and have made quite a few changes in my own diet as a result to include more whole foods. Basically, I don't want to have to read the ingredients, I want to know exactly what is in my hand when I pick it up. I was talking to a vegetarian friend about this. It kind of made me laugh that here was this individual promoting the health benefits of a vegetarian lifestyle, but as the same time usually only consuming highly processed tofu, soy, and other refined food products without a great deal of dietary variety. Same person who complains about being tired all the time. Healthy? Not really, by my definition. Most people's diets are pretty bad. I know I'm pretty careful but sometimes it is easy to fall back onto easy, bad choices.
natural sourcesTig
Dec 6, 2001 12:19 PM
I agree about natural sources being the best way to ingest vitamins. A supplement is a good way of helping those of us who don't eat perfectly everyday, or have additional needs.

I've heard that the body ingests and metabolizes manufactured supplements faster and more efficient than natural ones since our physiology takes the easiest path. The manufactured ones don't need to be broken down as much. It might be bunk though.
natural sourcesmorey
Dec 6, 2001 12:52 PM
Just to give you an example of what goes into a tablet:
1000 mg Ascorbic Acid
4000 mg Excipients (which include Malic Acid, Polishing agents, lubricants)
The tablet weighs 5 gm to give you 1 gm of cheap Ascorbic Acid. I know because I was an advisor to the company that made these.
natural sourcesSpokeman
Dec 6, 2001 2:48 PM
Hi Morey,

I've been following this thread lately and so far I've not seen too many things I disagree with, but I would like to point out a few things.

First, I work in SciTech for a vitamin company. We've been around for over 40 years so it's not a fly-by-night operation. I only say this to justify my opinion. :) (and an opinion is all this is, don't try and get a loan based on this)

I do applaud your support for supplementing one's diet. The vast majority of us have a poor diet, and athletes, in general, are no exception.

You stated that a 5gm tablet has 1gm of AA and 4gm of tableting aids. Since I can't vouch for that company I can't comment on their formulations, but I can tell you that we would never have such a lopsided ratio in any of our tablets. In addition, tableting aids are chosen for their safety in addition to their primary purpose. There is absolutely no valid research to support any risk associated with the popular tablet aids. What I'm getting at is that there is nothing wrong with tableting aids.

Second, you called the 1gm "cheap ascorbic acid." The truth is that 99% of ascorbic acid is produced from corn, yes corn. Synthetic ascorbic is very expensive and not very bioavailable due to the fact that its helix is a mirror image of natural and the body has difficulty with absorption. That said, once ascorbic acid is derived from the corn source, it's pretty much all the same. Some manufacturers include bioflavonoids to increase the bioavailability (we do this) but other than that, it's all moot.

Every time a nutrition thread begins people always chime in that you can get all you need from food. Well that's simply not the case (as you stated so well). In fact, I challenge anyone to eat enough "food" to get 200-400IU of vitamin E per day. If so, you'll be gaining a bit of weight to do it. I choose 200-400 because the mountain of evidence to support Vitamin E supplementation is unequivocal.


Tocotrienols: I assume you are against taking large doses of tocotrienols without the tocopherols. What most people do not know is that there are 4 tocopherols and 4 tocotrienols. In the US, by law all vitamin E has to give the Alpha values. All the other tocopherols and toco's can be converted to an alpha value. What needs to be emphasized here is the body prefers E as part of the entire family. As you said about synthetic E, the body absorbs it at about 50% of the efficiency as natural E. What would be optimum, is getting your E in a ration that is balanced as in nature. That's the tough part.

All of these points I make are nitpicky and in no way means a darn thing in the big picture. I find myself agreeing/learning from you in the vast majority of your posts. I personally want to thank you for taking your time out and spreading the gospel.

A good website to visit on regarding supplements is www.crnusa.org.

SM
Areas of expertiseKrill
Dec 6, 2001 9:23 PM
You obviously know suppliments and are picky about it. I know frame design and engineering, bicycles in general and am picky about it. I bet you worry about 2 grams as much as I worry about 2mm. I don't hold it against you - no harm, no foul.
natural sourcesmorey
Dec 7, 2001 2:56 AM
This was an effervescent vitamin C. In order to cause effervescence like in an Alka Seltzer, voila the large tablet. I will not mention the name of this company, but they were the pits.
Time of day and supplementationpeloton
Dec 7, 2001 8:50 AM
Here is something that I have read a little about, and any insight would be appreciated. Research would point to naturally occuring vitamins being the best source for nutrition. Now, if a supplement is taken in during the same time frame as the body is metabolizing a natural nutrient of the same type, say vitamin C for argument. Now you have lab made and natural vitamin C in the digestive system. Only so much is going to get used by the body, with the rest passed through urine. The body is going absorb both the natural and artificial vitamin C and metabolize it. Some of the artificial vitamin C may impede the more potent natural vitamin C's pathway into the body. It would seem that it would be best if we allowed our body's a chance to take what they can from natural sources before we introduce artificial sources. Because of this, do you reccomend a time table for supplementation that would decrease this occurance? Perhaps before sleep, away from meals to allow utmost absorbtion of natural sources? I'm a kinesiology guy, so correct me if this thinking is off.
Time of day and supplementationmorey
Dec 7, 2001 9:41 AM
Interesting. It is true that if you ingest 100% of something, digestion is only about 55% efficient, then assimilation is only about 50% efficient. Then if everything is working perfect you might absorb 25% of what you started with. Pretty crummy. Then you add your scenario - yuk! I have found that if you take b-vitamins late at night it becomes difficult to sleep. I prefer taking vitamins @ breakfast, lunch and dinner in order to improve their overall absorption. However, you have made me ponder what is best?
kidney stones?tarwheel
Dec 6, 2001 1:26 PM
I quit taking extra Vitamin C this summer after developing a kidney stone. The information I read about kidney stones said that taking Vitamin C supplements can actually promote stone formation. Do you know anything about this? I still take a multi-vitamin that contains C.
kidney stones?bikedodger
Dec 6, 2001 1:39 PM
I've read the same thing, and even though I get kidney stones every couple of years, I still take a vitamin C supplement. I think there are way too many variables in getting the stones to blame it on one factor.

Mike
kidney stones?morey
Dec 6, 2001 2:15 PM
My feeling also!!!!
kidney stones?morey
Dec 6, 2001 2:13 PM
Fooey!
kidney stones?koala
Dec 7, 2001 7:21 AM
I passed 3 stones this year. Turns out I have very high levels of calcium in my urine and I am now on a diuretic 3 times a week and drink at least 96 ounces of water a day. When I ride I of course drink more . If you have a recurrence of stones see a doctor, and always stay hydrated. Coffee and cetain foods contain oxyxlates that form calcium stones. Also recent research shows taking in high calcium foods (NOT CALCIUM BY PILL) actually raises blood calcium and lowers urinary calcium which reduces the chance of another stone forming. For internet purporses search renal calculi.