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New Bike: Seven Axiom or Moots Vamoots?(40 posts)

New Bike: Seven Axiom or Moots Vamoots?JC
Nov 14, 2001 11:01 PM
Its that time of year to splurrrgh on something... and I have been thinking about a new bike for quite sometime. I definitely want a Ti frame and I'm impressed by the apparent quality of these two bikes as commented by various posters on this board. I like the customizing aspect of Seven, but I've heard that the quality of workmanship for Moots ti frames is unsurpassed. I've been riding a steel Da Rosa for the last five years (which I'll keep till I die... love that bike). Also -- let's face it -- coming into play in choosing between these two bikes is the mystique factor of having something that not very many people have (not meant to be a Lightspeed bash... but I do see them all over).

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
re: New Bike: Seven Axiom or Moots Vamoots?Woof the dog
Nov 15, 2001 12:36 AM
You must be kidding me w/ this Q. Everybody knows that seven is the best shit out there.

rough rough
SerottaBicycle Bill
Nov 15, 2001 2:34 AM
While both the Seven and Moots are very good bikes they both fall short of the Serotta Legend Ti. You do see more of them than the other two and for good reason, try to look at each one in person and ride them, you'll see. Also Serotta offers custom sizing and paint at no extra charge, you can have your own bike, built for you. Not an off the peg frame designed to suite many but maybe not all.
Woof is rightkoala
Nov 15, 2001 4:42 AM
Contact both serotta and seven and see what they do for customization. Also the moots is straight guage-your going to go half way? Seven is awesome but serotta has many who swear theirs is at least as good. Seven will paint your bike for an upcharge but their frame price is less by 225 than serotta is to begin with. Its a win win situation.
Maybe, maybe not.grzy
Nov 15, 2001 9:34 AM
Ultimately it becomes highly subjective - ever seen any data that "proves" that one is better than the other? Nope.

If you want an interesting perspective go to and see what Ben Serotta has to say about a Seven vs. Serotta. Take a close look at the taper and shape of the tubes used on a Legend. No one manipulates their tube sets more and it's the closest thing to steel w/out the weight. Riden both an Odonata (my buds), but like my Legend better (so I'm biased). Wifey's Holland is pretty sweet. Never riden the Moots. Serotta will do whatever you want in terms of finish - check out the subtle bead blast or the harlequin colors from the boys at NorthEast Paint works (formerly Serotta employees). I think the use of the Wound-Up fork is a big mistake - I've seen a failure, but YMMV. Ouzo or F-1.

Ultimately there really aren't any bad choices in this arena.
Wound-Up Forkkyroadie
Nov 15, 2001 10:08 AM
Wound-Up forks are uuuugleee!
Serotta has cooler dropoutsgtx
Nov 15, 2001 10:20 AM
and more old school racing cred. Regarding Seven vs. Moots, I guess you need to figure out if you need custom. I think Moots would be a hassle in this regard, but their bikes are sweet (and again, cooler dropouts).

I know absolutely nothing about these guys but they do custom ti for $1250.

Maybe you should forget ti and get a Richard Sachs.
one other possibly useless comment--Hampstengtx
Nov 15, 2001 10:37 AM
If you think the Moots would be a fairly good fit but would want a slightly longer top tube, get a Hampsten ti frame--which Andy Hamsten has made by Moots. It's a VaMoots with a 1cm longer top tube.

I did a ride with Andy last year. He's a very cool guy and he's nuts about Moots (and he's ridden plenty of Serottas).

Also maybe check out Ibis, though Scot Nicol just sold them and there seem to be some problems at the moment.
one other possibly useless comment--Hampstenpmf1
Nov 15, 2001 11:02 AM
What tour did you do? I did the Chianti Classic in September 2000 as part of my honeymoon. It was the best bike tour by orders of magnitude that I'd ever done. I recall Andy riding a Moots ti bike. I know the steel ones are made by his brother and looked nice too. Some of the guides were riding them.

Man would I like to do that again. I bet I could even talk my wife into flying if it were to go on another one of those tours.
one other possibly useless comment--Hampstengtx
Nov 15, 2001 11:34 AM
he was out here promoting his bikes and I did a group ride with him. I'd love to do one of his Italy tours--I've done quite a bit of riding on my own in Italy. I think his brother is running the company but not actually doing the building--I think it's a Seattle framebuilder. I've seen several of his bikes around. That AME fork looks cool painted to match.
one other possibly useless comment--Hampstenpmf1
Nov 15, 2001 12:37 PM
Its amazing what a nice guy he is and how skinny he still is. On one day, he was in a hurry to get to the top of a mountain to use his cell phone because his kid was sick. Normally he just ambled along with the rest of us tourists. He took off and five minutes later was just a little dot in the distance. He still goes out training with Mapeii in the winter around there. If you do a tour, he'll give you 10% off on one of his bikes. Hey, its a good excuse to do one.
one other possibly useless comment--Hampstengtx
Nov 15, 2001 12:54 PM
I think he's skinnier now. His quads used to be bigger. I remember standing next to him after a stage in the Coors Classic in SF in 1986?

Yeah, really nice guy. To me he represents the best of American cycling.
one other possibly useless comment--Hampstenjschrotz
Nov 15, 2001 4:36 PM
I picked up a Hampsten steel Cinghiale Pro this past May. Their steel bikes are made in Seattle by Ti Cycles to Hampsten's dimensions. It's a fantastic ride. The AME fork not only looks great, it's a great performer as well. I met Steve Hampsten at the Seattle bike expo and he's a really nice guy, and gave me 10% off for initiating the purchase at the expo. They took care of building it up with everything I wanted. Great group of guys to work with. Now to save the $$ to get over to Italy and do one of Andy's tours. . .
I think it's the other way around...Bicycle Bill.PsyDoc
Nov 15, 2001 5:09 AM
I think the Legend Ti falls short of the Seven. The Moots is straight guage, but I have heard talk that they may give double-butting a try. The nice thing about Seven is that they will do whatever you want them to do. If you do not want any decals, no problem. You do not want the headbadge attached to the headtube, which I did not want, no problem. You can even tell them how you want the bike to ride (see below) and I do not think you can get the same level of customization with the Serotta, but I could be wrong. [in the words of "Mr. Subliminal"] Regardless, you will be very happy (go with Seven) with the end product (go with Seven) from any of the companies you listed (go with Seven).
consider Airborne, Douglas, Habanero, or Litespeednm
Nov 15, 2001 5:20 AM
Seven is good.Leisure
Nov 15, 2001 5:39 AM
The Moots I've seen are finished very nicely, the Sevens are finished a bit better. Custom tubesets and sizing are the status quo for Seven. I've ridden plenty of Seven tube variations, and I love the possibilities. Serotta manages to be the only "common" (for lack of a better word) brand I've seen very little of, and a few people have mentioned a couple more obscure but possibly better framemakers in other discussions. It's kind of cool to be able to find out about them here. How they ride should be the most important factor, but remember that the custom ones ride according to how you order them i.e.-it's not as simple as a random-sample test ride. My LBS's manager ordered himself a Seven that just happened to match everything I would have been looking for, and it just blew me away.
re: New Bike: Seven Axiom or Moots Vamoots?MikeC
Nov 15, 2001 6:05 AM
I own a Seven. It's a truly great bike. I have a close friend who owns a Serotta Legend. It's a truly great bike. I don't know anyone with a Moots.
As close as I am to both of these bikes, I really don't think that I can identify ways in which the workmanship of one is better than the other. There are differences in handling/ride, but those were because we defined those differences in our spec.
Others may disagree, but here's my assessment:
If you're a racer or aggressive club rider, shave your legs, and would like to drive a Ferrari Maranello, buy the Serotta.
If you're a century rider or the club rider who doesn't try to drop people but never, ever gets dropped yourself, and would like to drive a Porsche Turbo, buy the Seven.
If you're not a member of any club, but mysteriously show up at events all over the country and leave people asking "Who IS that guy?" and would like to drive an Aston Martin, buy the Moots.
PS-Read the reviews of the Ferrari Maranello, Porsche Turbo, and Aston Martin Vanquish to see how personal taste really defines what's state of the art.
Get a Litespeed --- Litespeed Rulespmf1
Nov 15, 2001 6:37 AM
All those other bikes are for posers:

1. VaMoots --- Forget it. Its ski season soon. Those guys will be too busy on the slopes to make you a bike.

2. Seven --- Here's a good one. They throw that customized form away when you send your order in. All their bikes are the exact same. And that's straight guage ti

3. Habenero --- Made by political prisoner/slaves in China. Plus they use CP tubes in parts of the bikes.

4. Serrotta --- The most over-rated, over-priced ti bikes ont he planet. They all crack within 3 years.

Get the Litespeed Ghisello (sp?). Its a steal for $9800 frame only. In fact, I bet they could do custom for $1000 more. Maybe a paint job for another grand. Made by real Americans in Tennessee, not a bunch of sissy snow-bunnies in Colorado.
LOL! Thanks for the morning shot of sarcasm! (nm)RhodyRider
Nov 15, 2001 6:47 AM
I don't think he was being sarcastic ....LOL...nmCT1
Nov 15, 2001 6:51 AM
LS RULES!!!!pmf1
Nov 15, 2001 9:26 AM
I forgot

5. Colnago CT1 --- A half-assed Russian frame made out of reject aircraft ti bonded to some carbon tubes. The whole bike will separate in a matter of 2-3 years.

Get a Litespeed. The Bike of Real Men (and Women).
Yeah, but.....grzy
Nov 15, 2001 9:41 AM
Which LS? They make so many and each one is soooo "above average" - I want to make sure I get the one that all the guys at the coffee shops pose with, errr, I mean ride. I want to make sure mine has the special "booger welds" made by real hillbillies.

Serotta - 25+ years of building awesome rides.
hey, come
Nov 15, 2001 9:57 AM
Mr. Litespeed makes a fine product.
Any LS will do ....pmf1
Nov 15, 2001 10:51 AM
They're all awesome bikes.

You know, all the welders at Serrotta are guys that flunked out of LS ti welding school.

I'd say, to properly fit in at the coffee house (not cafe' bar?) you need the new wonder bike Ghiardessllo that can be had for around $4000 for the frame.

Buy the bike. I would speak to you then.
heed your own adviceEd
Nov 15, 2001 11:00 AM
"its better to keep your mouth closed and be assumed an idiot, than to open it and remove all doubt"
Bite mepmf1
Nov 15, 2001 11:04 AM
You humorless little dweeb.
real class, pmf1 (nm)Jack S
Nov 15, 2001 11:38 AM
Why are you guys so serious???pmf1
Nov 15, 2001 11:52 AM
I'm just joking about the LS thing. It constantly amazes me how deep conversations about chain lube can bring about such heated discussion.

And Ed, get a sense of humor buddy.
got oneEd
Nov 15, 2001 1:28 PM
been laughing at you the whole time
I love ya man (NM)pmf1
Nov 15, 2001 1:55 PM
Sounds like you want the bestDMoore
Nov 15, 2001 11:11 AM
Hi everyone. My name's DMoore and I'm a bike-a-holic. I've been eyeballing and lusting after (and buying) nice bikes for many years. I've owned a Litespeed since Feb. '94, (they weren't so common back then) along with several steel bikes.

I've seen LS's, Merlins, Serottas, 7s, Spectrums and more.

The BEST Ti frames I've seen, bar none, are from Bill Holland in Spring Valley, CA. The workmanship is absolutely impeccable, on a par with the best steel frames I've seen. He will build a totally custom bike, and has access to a wide variety of tubing. Holland is the only Ti builder I've seen (well, I think I'd have to include the older Spectrums) that compares favorably to the workmanship on my favorite steel bikes, from Richard Sachs, Brian Baylis, and Bill Holland himself.

If I was buying a Ti bike today and wanted the best quality available, I wouldn't even think about anyone else. In addition, Holland shares space with Joe Bell, one of the very best painters out there. You can get a JB paint job and the bike will be that much more distinctive, although you can leave it gray if you prefer. Holland's not a particularly well known builder outside of the San Diego area, but his work is unequalled. I have a Columbus SL/SP lugged steel frame he built in the late '80s, and it's still gorgeous.
Nov 15, 2001 11:24 AM
Ah, a voice of intelligence rather the mtbresque flotsam and jetsam above. Bill Holland paint by Joe Bell, eegad that sounds good.
mtbresque flotsam?gtx
Nov 15, 2001 11:36 AM
lol. Some of us like mtbresque flotsam.

Nov 15, 2001 2:45 PM
Holland is very good, but I think Serotta is better when you compare. Straight tubes vs. tapered, sculpted and curved. Got a ti example of each in the stable. Joe Bell's paint is second to none, but the guys that do Serotta (North East Paint) are just as skilled.
Sounds like you want the bestTheMaxx
Nov 15, 2001 11:39 AM
A Moots frame is by far the most beautiful thing I have ever seen. Everything is perfect. The welds are a stack of nickels everytime.
I guess you can't go wrong with Seven or Moots, or maybe some of the custom builders mentioned. I would go for Moots though. Absolutely perfect.
Why can't we all just get along?Bicycle Bill
Nov 15, 2001 3:56 PM
Look at a Serotta, tapered-swaged-triple butted tubes held together with flawless welds, custom sizing, custom paint and years and years of building bikes for guys who may not pay for them but do earn their pay on them.

Seven, great welds, tubes that are bent but not tapered. A long order form that proports to define your riding style, lots of questions to come up with the same answer, "I want a light, stiff frame"

Moots. Nice welds...the rest, just plain. Not even butted.

Litespeed. The ti bike for the masses. They're good bikes and there is one to meet every budget.
The cult of Big Mactirider
Nov 15, 2001 9:58 PM
Why oh why do owners of certain bikes presume to proselytize? In my humble opinion narrow your choice to a competant custom builder and a dealer who can help you transmit your input to that builder. This all parallels ongoing diatribes as to whether BMW, Mercedes or Lexus build the best sedans. Whether it's Serotta, Seven or Moots, the most important variable is the person who does the fitting and relays that information to the one who designs the frame. Tapered tubes, round tubes, external or internal butting... this ultimately is the reflection of the apex of artistic expression by any number of builders in the marketplace. I challenge anyone to prove which is best. In the course of years of bicycle addiction I've owned bikes from Serotta, Seven, Lightspeed and sundry Euro-builders and to me the ultimate factor is the interface between the rider and the bicycle... i.e. the fit. While nothing replicates the beauty of a C-40, I personally would prefer to ride a bicycle of lesser pedigree that is built to my particular dimensions and preferences. Any number of builders can accomplish this. Far fewer dealers can facilitate it. And only those in the Serotta community will understand my reference to Big Mac. What happened to him anyway? Is it just me or has he disappeared since the new forum?
One owner's view . . .Tony Edwards
Nov 16, 2001 12:03 AM
I, too, have an aging DeRosa (in my case, a 1995-ish SLX Professional) that I supplanted last year with a VaMoots.

Even as a VaMoots owner, I can't see buying a stock bike if you don't mind paying a bit more for custom. The Moots is really nice but I doubt I would have paid retail for it - actually I was really close to buying a custom Spectrum when I found my Moots (a guy on the RBR classifieds sold it to me, essentially brand-new, with a Look HSC-3, King HS and Millenium stem for $1,500).

In all fairness you should really be comparing the Moots to the Seven Alaris, as they are both straight-gauge frames. I like my Moots a lot but the geometry is MUCH quicker than a De Rosa, which you may or may not care for.

And even though it is an apples-to-oranges comparison, I think my Serotta ATi MTB is a nicer bike than my Moots, and I would certainly not dismiss the Serottas either. They are both depicted at
Nov 16, 2001 8:10 AM
Because . . .Tony Edwards
Nov 16, 2001 9:51 PM
the saddle was brand-new. I actually left it on my first Flite saddle until it fell off because I thought it looked cool (OK, this is a bit embarassing), but in this instance it was just a very fresh saddle.