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I ran, and I think I'm gonna die(39 posts)

I ran, and I think I'm gonna dieDog
Oct 31, 2001 3:39 PM
My new coach prescribed some running for this "prepatory" phase of training - 30 minutes, twice a week (and less riding for now).

So, I went and bought some good running shoes (New Balance 991's, for any running people), took off a bit early, and went for it.

Now, I haven't really run in about 5 years. Pretty much nothing but biking.

Despite having run for years and years, marathons, one 50k, track, and nearly always off and on, this time it felt about as natural as doing cartwheels down the street. It hurt. While I didn't really breathe hard, everything complained - chest, knees, toes, ankles, shoulders, hips - pretty much everything. At 10 minutes out I turned back from the pain. My legs hurt more now than after 500 miles on the bike. Seriously.

Is this a good idea? How about hearing from you duathalon, triathalon, or 'cross people? Does it get better? Man, this sucks. My knees must think I weigh 300 pounds or something.

I do have more respect for you two sport people now. Holy cow.

Dog('gone tired)
running is evil. never do it.nm.sorghum
Oct 31, 2001 3:47 PM
Running: bad. Biking: good.look271
Oct 31, 2001 4:06 PM
Repeat this X 100. You'll snap out of this phase soon.
running sucks, I'd rather go to the Opera! nmBirddog
Oct 31, 2001 5:32 PM
running sucks, I'd rather go to the Opera! nmcapnjim01
Nov 1, 2001 6:14 AM
i don't know. went to opera once. can you believe they don't even tailgate. what kind of deal is that
they don't even tailgateBirddog
Nov 1, 2001 6:39 AM
Yeah that is pretty lame, and they can't even name one decent brewski, imported or domestic! Lets not even mention ribs or sausages.
don't laugh, that's tomorrow nightDog
Nov 1, 2001 6:50 AM
Running and opera in the same week. Ugh.

They probably have Champagne and cheese in the lobby. That's their version of tailgating.

I "get" to be in the bike Saturday morning. Coach says do a 30 minute uphill time trial to determine baseline AT. That will certainly be fun. (is there a sarcasm emoticon?)

Dog
re: I ran, and I think I'm gonna dietr
Oct 31, 2001 3:47 PM
Since it has been a while for you i think your complaints are normal. In the winter (NW) i run more than ride and during the season if i want to be extra light i will run at lunch and ride after work. You need to give yourself a week or two and then things will be back to normal since you know what running is all about. Of course you know that the first week or so is a mental thing, then before you know you will be on remote control. Your body will get used to it. Soft surfaces at first will help your body adjust. Initially, your MP3 can be your friend on the runs. Slight long hills seemed to increase my climbing ability on the bike.
Start slow, build up distance. . .js5280
Oct 31, 2001 4:00 PM
I wouldn't consider myself a runner, but I started running to train for tri and have kept up with it because it's good substitute when you don't have time for a ride. I started out just doing a mile run for the first handful of times and then built up to a 5k. It was very painful and my knees were definately sore the first few weeks. I value my knees dearly because snowboarding is my wintertime passion. As time passed, my legs felt better and better. Despite not having running for well over a month, I did a 10k recently and felt surprising well during and after. I think you just have to bring up those running muscles and tendens into condition and then you'll do fine. Also consider the pace you're running. I started out running a 10-11 minute mile pace which isn't very fast, but the impact is still there which is what you're body is complaining about. You can surf over to the www.runnersworld.com for more detailed info for starting a running program. Good luck. Tell us when you're ready for your first Ironman or ultra-running event ;-)
Walk first then runRick S
Oct 31, 2001 4:13 PM
One of the hardest aspects of staring to run is getting used to the tremendous impact on your body. Running is a violent motion filled with jarring impact - riding is relatively smooth.

I recently started to run and was advised to use a run/walk approach. I rejected it at first - heck, I'm fit, rode RAMROD, loged over 3.5K miles on my bike this year, etc. However, I was convinced that even elite runners walk first as part of any program.

Run/walk allows your body to get used to the impact over time. Each period of running is followed by a period of walking. As the running segments get longer, the walking time decreases. After a number of weeks, you are just running.

I've been on the 13 week run / walk program put out by the Sports Medicine Council of British Columbia. They prepared the program because they saw so many training injuries in BC associated with non-runners training for the Vancouver Sun Run (a popular 10K with over 10,000 participants).

I'm pleased with my progress, and have been relatively free from pain. Three weeks ago I ran a 5K with my son and felt good enough to ride a quick 30 miles after!

Perhaps your coach is being overly aggressive - Does it have anything to do with an event timetable? Are you being asked to get up to speed quickly?
Walk first then runDINOSAUR
Oct 31, 2001 4:48 PM
I agree with the walk/run approach. If you havn't run in a long time you might just consider walking for the first three weeks until you attempt any kind of running. You will notice the impact that comes with running right off the bat. It will literally beat the crap out of you. I attempted running last March and I started having trouble with my right knee, then my old heel injury flared up. Then to top it off I got bit in the back on the leg by a dog. I wish I could run. I know I mentioned this before but for what it's worth check into a Concept2 Rowing Ergometer. It won't beat the crap out of you, you can reach aerobic threshholds you can't reach on a bike, and you will use non-cycling muscles that will balance you out. I rediscovered my rowing machine when I was waiting for the Trek gremlins to ship my rim. When I got back on my bike I noticed improvement in my upper body strength. Just a thought, off topic, but these machines are probably the best kept secrets in exercise equipment. They are big in the east where rowing is more popular. Anyway when it's raining poodles and I can't ride I just get on my Concept2 and don't have to worry about losing condition. I guess this idea kind of throws any input from your coach. But for what it's worth...
Dear Dog'gone tired. Suck it up big boy it'll get better.MB1
Oct 31, 2001 4:19 PM
That being said you won't catch me running-don't need those kinds of injuries. Miss M however runs 5 miles every weekday morning and as you know she drives me into the ground on weekends.

Once you get over the pain thing you will be fine. Take it very easy at first-very easy. Pretend you are out of shape and 10 minutes of exercise is more than enough-than you shouldn't have to worry about injuries. Your general fitness level doesn't match your running level (and do you really want it to?).
running is good for your bikingDAS
Oct 31, 2001 4:37 PM
I like to run when I can't bike. When I'm travelling, when it's too hot, when it's too cold, or when I only have an hour. I think it's great for biking. It's a great short workout. You rest a lot less than you would on the bike...no coasting. It definitely makes you lighter, works your lungs, and get you in shape. I think you need to ease into running b/c of the high impact. If you're not careful you will get shin splints, knee pain, soreness, etc. I like to run hills but I actually think running flats can be harder since you have to try to keep the same pace for a long time. I like to run 5-6 miles, about 50 minutes. Some of the best workouts of my life have been 10Ks or 12Ks. It's amazing how fast 'real runners' can go, even old ladies! Trying to keep a good pace in a race is humbling and a fantastic workout. I can really appreciate how hard running is, maybe because I'm not the best runner. It's a lot like swimming or biking in that you can't just be strong and go out and be good at it the first day. You need to work up to a comfort level, build specific muscles, resistance to shock (ligaments?) and endurance.
re: I ran, and I think I'm gonna diebreck
Oct 31, 2001 4:59 PM
Don't start the running program off by doing the constant 30-minute run only routine, even if only twice the week. As Rick S said, start by using the clock and run-walk for the 30 minutes. Slowly there will be less of the walking phase and the 30 minutes or 4 miles or so constant run will become easier and arrive sooner. You should really not miss more than two days of running in the week for the hour total time you have alloted yourself. Maybe re-think and do 20 minutes three times the week for starters. Then build up, etc.

It is not obvious to me, a trail runner by nature, that running ever helped my biking except for allowing extra cardiovascular effort past the 60 trail miles or so the legs would take, my top weekly limit. Biking up to 10K mountain miles a year (pave road plus trail mtb) did eat into my running time though as total time devoted to endurance activities did not allow as much running, etc. I clock out now a days at more than 15 hours per week average over the year or ~750 hours per year run and bike and don't now use a computer or stop watch.

Allow yourself about eight weeks to get the feel of it, even though you have been a runner in your "former life" :) BTW, have found 50K trail runs much easier than 26.2+ road marathons as one may walk a bit in the 50K (e.g., the uphill portions) but typically keep moving in the marathon. Stay off the pavement if you can find a park or trail to run on as this will tremendously help the soreness. Aspirin and vitamin C is also an old standby for soreness as you know.

Am approaching the big six-o and still doing it though the clock seems to be slowing down in the time trials and races though effort seems the same, etc. and only run the mountain trails with my old fashioned Collies and keep the racing to a minimum now a days.

Cheers,
breck
aka Trail dog to the locals
I can't run, and I think I'm gonna dieET
Oct 31, 2001 5:03 PM
You struck a nerve here, but perhaps not the way you intended. I was a runner before injuries and botched surgeries forced me to cycle. To me, running was far superior to cycling in every way. IMHO, the typical serious runner is in far better athletic shape than the typical serious cyclist. 'Nuff said cuz'n I might get thrown outta here. Anyway, I miss running so much I think I'm gonna die. Well, at least cry. It's been over a year, but time hasn't healed. I'm grateful I can cycle, but honestly, I wish I wasn't here. A runner is who I was. I'll never get over it; can't help it, but that's my personality.

You said you "went for it". That's not how to start out after five years. Take it slow and build up; in "the long run" you will reap the rewards.
I went the other routeCrazyMan
Oct 31, 2001 5:53 PM
As a former, and still current, runner, I can give you my experience. I began cycling about 2 years ago, and after getting hurt this summer, have resumed this week after a 5 month layoff.
Cycling, for me, when I first started out was more painful than anything in the world. Worse than getting layed out in my hockey games, worse than getting spiked in the face playing 3rd, worse than getting undercut going hard to the hole - and I've done all of these things in the past 2 weeks. Believe me, cyling hurt more than all of them.
Getting caught on a steep uphill with a raised curb, heavy traffic, and not nearly enough gears almost killed me - I still shudder when I think about it.

What I'm trying to say, is that anything new hurts like a bitch. Your body isn't used to it. Just stick with it, bust your ass, and it'll start feeling natural after a while, just like hockey, running, baseball, and basketball for me...I'm still working on cycling though :)
Running makes you unhappypeloton
Oct 31, 2001 7:30 PM
Bias, but look at the Fight or Flight theory. Running is a fear based activity. Me? Running? Not unless I'm being chased!

Actually, I used to do track and field too in high school. Running does make my knees very unhappy. I cross train with swimming for that reason. Low impact, and a hell of a total body workout.

I have had a couple of tri buddies tell me that lots of running makes their pedaling feel 'choppy and square'. Not exactly scientific, but I wonder if it could have an effect on your biomechanics? Anyone have any experience with this?
re: I ran, and I think I'm gonna dieBikingViking
Oct 31, 2001 7:43 PM
Running really helps on the bike, as I discovered this summer. I was in Turkey for 3 months, (courtesy of the US Air Force). I was running 36 minutes 4x a week in the heat. I came back and hooked up with a local club, doing some fast (19 -23 mph) rides. I still got blown off the back the first few weeks, but the summer running mad my legs tough enough to deal with the near-anarobic state I was riding. My advice is to run by time, starting with 20 minutes, 3x a week. THen increase your time by 10 percent a week. I almost guarantee injury-free running.
Race Walkingchar
Oct 31, 2001 8:13 PM
Doug,

Give racewalking a try instead of running. A lot easier on the body once you get used to it, more of an endurance type thing, similar to base miles in a low gear (65" fixed). Plus you are out in flatland Fresno, start with say, 12 minute miles and go from there.

Charlie
Race Walkingbreck
Nov 1, 2001 6:29 AM
Back about 1990 on the "bike path" in the city, a race walker come up beside me as i was running about a 7 minute pace. He was a very cheerful fellow and hardly seemed to be working out atall. Blew my mind and went home and checked the world record for the race walk. Blew my mind even more! Geeze, most "fit" rec-runners can not even run this fast.

cheers,
breck
Start slow & Stretch!!!!!!!!!jagiger
Oct 31, 2001 8:37 PM
It's definitely tough getting back to running after biking so much. I found out this summer when I took time out to run a 5K after not running at all for 2 months. I had no form at all & my legs didn't want to work. I was in shock...I didn't know that I could suck so bad.

Lately, I've been running more with the weather winding down. I've found that I needed to do more stretching, which I helped quite a lot, specially with the hamstrings. This also seems to reduce the tightness around my knees. As I'm getting more comfortable, I've adding more miles. Ultimately, I want to balance it with some spinning once I get past a traditional Turkey Day road race (I'm looking to extend my streak to 24). I think the balance between the two should keep the bod from spazzing out again. You gotta keep the strenghing in the routine, specially with the cold weather.

Good luck with you off season training!
Re the kneesmuncher
Nov 1, 2001 4:22 AM
As an ex triathlete, who started running again after almost a complete year off, I know how you feel. Running is just harder than cycling. That said, I really feel the benefits of running cross training, esp hill work, on the bike, so keep at it.

My knees gave me problems. A physio friend of mine advised taking a glucosamine sulphate regeme. It really worked (to my surprise, as I am not a pill person at all). I know take a 7 seas joint care pill each day (contains 615mg Cod liver oil, 365 mg Omega 3, 100mg glucosamine sulphate, and some gen mixed vits).

In addition to the running and cycling, I play a lot of hard court tennis, and also indoor football. Since I started taking these, by knees have really imporoved, and I find I get generally less achey.

Also - ALWAYS warm up and down thoroughly - that makes one of the biggest differences to me.

Hope some/all of that helps.

M.
My .02........Len J
Nov 1, 2001 4:27 AM
lots of good advice so far, let me add mine.

1.) Do not start out runnning on anything but grass or a springy track. One significant difference between running & cycling is the pounding, your body is just not used to it. Ease into it by running on softer surfaces.

2.) Start slowly. You didn't go out and cycle 25 miles at 20 mph the first day on the bike. Don't expect 7 min miles for 5 miles right away.

3.) Because of the upper body movement, your upper torso will hurt until these muscles develop. Upper body strength is more important to running than cycling IMO. Give it time.

4.) Because of the upper body movement, your cardio system will be more taxed than you will expect. Give it time.

5.) Work on your form. It will take your mind out of the pain & it will help with both your efficiency & reduce the pounding. Think about running smooth, absorbing the pounding by putting your heel down gently & rolling onto your toes. Instead of having a "stiff" leg, try to run with a soft leg. Lower your center of gravity somewhat. I know it sounds funny but it really does work. Measure your progress by the sound. The less sound the better. In my experience, learning to do this is like increasing your cadence, it feels awkard as hell to start, but pretty soon its second natural.

6.) Finally, relax. Just like on the bike, the more relaxed your body is, the better blood flow & the more efficient you are. The more it hurts, the more you have to concentrate on relaxing.

I'm sure most of this you know, but I figured I'd try to sum it up.

Good Luck

Len
Start slowly and taper off ...:)..breck
Nov 1, 2001 6:18 AM
Was actually thinking last nite to just wait for Len J to post then i wouldn't need to :) But was in the mode, etc. As we both know the upper body strength thing relates to form late in the race. As you lose form you slow, then lose more form, slow more, etc., a down hill spiral. A couple of things i might add which we both know. One, don't run pigeon toed: keep the feet as parallel as natural. Two: don't bob the head excessively, keep an eye on the horizon, it should remain level and not go up and down. Three: don't over stride, err on the side of a shorter stride.

Speaking of Shorter :) and your commento re: lower CG, Shorter seemed to run thru his hips with his torso hardly moving, one of the most graceful forms i ever saw and always marveled at it and tried to emulate him sans his 3% body fat of course :) Then's there's Boston Billy's terrible arm swing form, why did not his coach "fix" this? And why did not Pre lose sum weight, seemed a tad heavy for an elite runner :) And heck while we're at the "why's" Len, why were you not born a few years earlier as your 2:26 would have got you into the Trials back in ought 72.

I would give a free ride in my Tundra just to get sum my local bike buddies down off the bike for a short 10K run just so's could kikk THEIR butts for a change 'cept Road Dog of course who finished the '99 Iron Man. But getting a biker off his bike is akin to getting the western cowboy off his horse as he knows that old lariat is better taming the steer than any bull dogger. Bikes rule for good long distance touring here in the mountains with hardly no effort atall as can't run for six hours at 15 mph most days :)

Makes me smile to see a really fit biker suffer on the track :) And why not as a lot of really fit runners suffer on the road :) This is all for naught really as "pure" bikers can't be made to run nor "runners " bike. Armstrong is an example of this as he was a Tri "in the beginning" but couldn't run nor swim good enuff to keep up i guess?

cheers from the back country Len J,
breck
Trail dog
San Diego Mountains
Comments re Shorter...Len J
Nov 1, 2001 6:41 AM
I agree that his form was graceful. In really paying attention to the details of his form, I noticed several things, first the low CG/run from the hips, two this running from the hips was absorbing the pounding like a spring, (the road hit was absorbed by a "giving in" at the knees & hips), (this is exactly what I was trying to describe when I contrasted a soft leg with a stiff leg)and finally (and most importantly), I never saw anyone who became more relaxed the further into a race he got like Shorter, if you look closely you can see the skin on his face move with every footfall, his shoulder muscles did the same. He, without a doubt was the most efficient runner I ever saw, just floated.

On the other side was Pre. Bull in a china shop. He was (IMO) Ullrich to Shorter's Armstrong. He was the toughest runner mentally I ever saw. You just had this feeling that he was going to do & suffer whatever to win. There was almost an anger combined with joy in watching him run.

Breck, you always manage to make me miss the running! But, the good news is at 46 I'm still able to walk. Life is about choice. (Damn if quitting running wasn't one of the harder ones though!)

Thanks for the memories Breck.

Len
Running is unnatural.Ping_Pong
Nov 1, 2001 5:20 AM
Distance running places a lot of bad stress on the body.
I just don't think the body was design for it. Maybe for a quick dash but not for slogging out miles on hard surfaces.(I know that we weren't born on bikes, but it could be argued that cycling is more like walking than running.) If I ever run more than 1 mile I feel like I am doing myself more harm than good. A couple of years back I gave myself a stress fracture in my foot by increasing the distances too quickly.

I would give running a miss if I was you. If you blow a joint you may be out of action for a long time.
lots of good advice and input! here's mine, fwiw...Js Haiku Shop
Nov 1, 2001 6:31 AM
expect your quads and chest to hurt for a few days after running each time for the first week or two.

since 1998 i've been running over the fall/winter, this last one was treadmill city (and stairstepper, and circuit weight machines). usually in late september or early october i'll start stretching my legs, and by december i'm running the local 8k at a blazing speed as to keep me near the back of the pack with the old ladies (with cottage cheese thighs). if you, too, wish to be old-lady competitive, read on:

first, walk. 45 minutes, brisk, in comfy athletic shoes, NOT your running shoes. every other day for a week. stretch at the end.

park farther from your office and walk, take stairs instead of elevator, get up several times throughout the day and walk to your car and back. carrying stuff. i carry a backpack full of water (5 24-ounce bottles) daily, which is all empty when i go home in the afternoon.

you can't start running off the bat! then again, it's a "do as i say, not..." situation, as i've run less than five times since february, then walked and ran for a week and a half to prepare for that first duathlon last weekend. and yes, it hurt, but not 'til after...then it was for three days (i was in serious pain 'til yesterday, as in barely able to walk monday and tuesday). now i'm ready to pickup the running and other cross-training type stuff again for the "off season".

btw, running without warning your body first (weeks of working up to a 30-60 minute run) leads to joint injury and shin splints. i'm sure you already know this!

the one thing that gets me farther and faster through the "running season" is sprinting the last few minutes of a treadmill workout, then later, in the "advanced stages" of my running affliction, sprinting just whenever i feel like sprinting (is this called fartlek?).

on a side note, funny how my running has changed over this one year: now i'm sprinting when i get tired, recovering on the run, pushing hard(er) up hills, more competitive, enjoying the pain and eventual suffering, where i was mostly avoiding is last year. this year my work-up-to-running-alot time will be only limited by attempting to stay injury-free, instead of pain-free.
You have that much experience running and still have questions!128
Nov 1, 2001 6:34 AM
Well, the mile is my race. Was fast but put down a 6:15 last fall in a charity fun run. Cross training is good. And the dreaded impact, once coralled, is good for bone strength...
Technique is what will get you through this. It's all about cadence and minimizing impact. Alot of small steps, fast. Like spinning, same deal That's how to avoid the insane pain. I've been doing 'toe-running' last couple years. More up on toe pad and "falling" foward- like. Relax jaw and shoulders, think of line down middle of body across which hands don't pass. Run level as you look at a horizon line....whatever, I'm sure you know all this


If it hurts, stop. Just walking will get you the same benefit for your purposes I speculate.
Good luck and Keep the bike!....; )
Advise caution.muncher
Nov 1, 2001 6:50 AM
Trying to change your natural gait too far can cause severe problems, far more so than trying to spin faster/slower. Everyone had a natural gait and pace, and it's best to stick fairly closely to this.

As you know - watch a bunch of folks running and you will see a bunch of styles - I know guys who have a very long, but very smooth pace (low foot lift, nice rolling motion), and others who have "terrible" short high jerky strides. They can all run the same courses in about the same times, and have been for years.

In other words - quite right, it's good to be smooth, but if you are just not a naturally short-paced runner, don't try to force it at all costs - you'll do yourself more harm than running in your natural way, with good shoes and warm up/down, and good rest.

BTW - it's worth getting the right shoes, not just good shoes - pronation, forefoot/heel strike etc etc all demand different shoes to cover regular distance safely.
re: IT WILL GET BETTER!dzrider
Nov 1, 2001 6:37 AM
Muscles work in pairs - one extends while its opposing muscle flexes. Cycling and running use legs differently and you've flexed some muscles on the back of your legs that are used to extending and extended some muscles that are used to flexing. Bones and joints are also absorbing impact that they haven't felt for a while.

All this is exacerbated by your fitness which allows you to stay in motion for a whole lot longer at a much faster pace than most first time runners. Listen to your body and when it stops hurting go out and run. You'll adapt to it and it's much nicer than riding on rainy days.
oh, forgot--requisite macho response: suck it up, ya wuss! nmJs Haiku Shop
Nov 1, 2001 6:43 AM
does that come with a slap in the face?Dog
Nov 1, 2001 6:53 AM
Thanks. Geez, I'm sore this morning. Body does not like this. Nietzsche was wrong.

Dog
no [bouncing basketball on back of head] nmJs Haiku Shop
Nov 1, 2001 7:06 AM
Gott ist not tott? (nm)128
Nov 1, 2001 8:28 AM
no, that kill me / stronger thing nmDog
Nov 1, 2001 8:37 AM
phew...........! Ubermench may then rest easy....(nm)128
Nov 1, 2001 8:56 AM
Somehow it doesn't seem....Tom C
Nov 1, 2001 10:05 AM
responsible for a coach to recommend starting a new athletic activity without a break in. Even though you ran before, five years might as well be another lifetime. Usually the run walk method is used for novice runners, I'd think as much as a muscular consideration as an aerobic one.
received wisdom in tri-training..dotkaye
Nov 1, 2001 12:04 PM
is that biking will usually help running, but running won't do much for biking. Mostly because of the high-impact effects of running, I think. You now have a very highly-trained aerobic system, but a woefully undertrained musculo-skeletal system, at least as far as running is concerned. Different muscles used differently, plus the weight-bearing aspect of running. SO, all the advice to start really slow, use run/walk, avoid concrete/tar surfaces etc, applies. Yes it will get better, but don't go pushing too hard..

I'm another used-ta-be runner, experienced an epiphany at the Aspen duathlon this year when I realized I'm actually enjoying biking more than running now.. Had fun all the way on the bike, started run two, and everything was aching, twingeing, or flat-out sore - neuroma in r foot, sore achilles on l, ache in knee, etcetera. Just wasn't that much fun.
re: I ran, and I think I'm gonna dieColnagoFE
Nov 2, 2001 9:29 AM
wait till the next day after running. i made the mistake once of running for 1.5 hours when i attended a conference and couldn't find a bike to rent. I think I was nearly lame the next day. i had the cardiovascular shape to do it, but my body was not used to the pounding and paid for it the next few days. used to run 10+ miles a day in my younger days, but damaged my ankles and switched to cycling. i still hike, but running seems to do bad things to me so i stay away from it. i suppose i could build up a tolerance to it byu starting with 15 minutes, then a little longer...etc.