|Dura Ace - Record comparison plus Eurus wheelset review||BipedZed|
Oct 26, 2001 7:46 AM
|I recently switched from 9spd Dura-Ace to 10spd Record. As a long time Shimano fan I decided to put my DA stuff (with over 15K miles) on a TT frame I was building up and try Campy for something different. After 1000 miles on Record here's some personal impressions.
Ergo shifters - The shape of the hoods are wider than DA and more comfortable to my hands. The shifters operate on bearings rather than bushings and have a very solid, precise feel, particularly the thumb shifter. It does take some time to break in though and initially I had trouble making shifts using the thumb lever from the drops without inadvertantly dropping down several cogs. It does loosen up nicely around 1000 miles and feels very nice. If you are low in the drops it is slightly more difficult to shift with the thumb lever because you have to adjust your hand position, particularly during intense efforts (intervals, sprinting) than STI. The left Ergo lever ratchets rather than indexes so you have a wide range of trim. The downside is that it's a much longer throw to slam it into the big ring compared to STI. Another small note, the brake levers don't pivot, but you can pull the small levers towards you while riding. This is kinda fun for snapping out little rhythms to whatever bad song is stuck in your head while riding. Cable routing is different and leads to a slighter bulkier bar but nothing noticeable. It is more difficult to tape the bars with Ergo shifters as you can't just figure 8 over the lever body.
Drivetrain - pretty much the same as Shimano. Shifts are quick and precise with little drive train noise. I installed the chain using a Permalink and Campy's chain tool and have experienced no problems. The BB is a sealed unit and much easier to install than the DA BB. However my main complaint with Campy is the lack of a splined crank/BB interface. I make sure to tighten the Campy crank on the tapered spindle after every ride and after 1000 miles the Campy crank seems to be getting pretty snug. Makes me appreciate the splined interface though. 10spds are nice but not necessary. I rode a 12x23 DA cassette and now have an 11x23 Campy. I rarely use the 11 and would much rather see a 12x23 with an 18. That would be sweet. Steel/Ti cogs are something like $150!!! definitely a minus if you have multiple wheels for different race situations.
Brakes - seem to hold perfect adjustment better than Shimano calipers. This may be because the quick release is on the Ergo lever rather than the caliper body, but for whatever reason I haven't had to touch the the adjustment since I installed them. Compared to DA however there doesn't seem to be as much power, but I'm using the differential single pivot rear caliper.
Overall I really like the Campagnolo stuff. If you work on your own bikes and have Shimano tools, all you really need is a Campy BB/cassette lockring tool and the Campy chain tool. I don't think it's necessarily better than DA and still run DA on my cyclocross and TT bikes, but it's nice to try something different.
I have several rides now on a set of the 2002 Campagnolo Eurus clincher wheelset. Buying these sight unseen except for some pictures from Interbike and the Campagnolo website there are some features that weren't readily apparent. I was very skeptical about the claimed weight being lighter than the 2002 Neutrons even with deeper rims and the same hubs. Like the Ksyrium SLs the 30mm Eurus rims are machined between the spokes to save weight on both the front and rear and then painted. The G3 spoke pattern on the rear allows for the removal of much of the rim between the spokes and certainly contributes to the low weight of the rear compared with the Nucleons/Neutrons. I don't have a gram scale, but they appear to weigh about as much as my older Ksyriums at 1600g. Besides hub differences, it appears the Zonda and Scirocco rims aren't machined between the spokes, but I haven't seen these in person. For such low spoke counts the Eurus wheels ride very nicely and haven't moved at all in 3 rides, but I haven't really put any serious mileage yet.
|Thanks, great review!||cioccman|
Oct 26, 2001 7:59 AM
|Good stuff. I've got both Rec 10 and DA 9 as well. I've mentioned it here before, once you've got or at spent significant time on both, you realize that neither has any particular significant advantage over the other. They're just plain old different. People who slam one or the other probably do not have or have not spent time on both.
Some differences I've noticed is that the DA seems to be smoother, kind of silkier. My Record shifts with much more authority. The Record drivetrain, on my ride, is definitely a bit louder and noisier, but that could be attributable to other factors. I have small hands so there are tradeoffs with both. Yes, the Campy hoods are larger, so I liked the Shimano hoods better. However, tradeoff is that I don't have the move the entire lever so far to the inside to make some shifts. The thumb shifter is a tradeup in this case.
I agree, 10 speeds are nice but not necessary.
|Out of saddle shifting is different||Ray Sachs|
Oct 26, 2001 9:43 AM
|I haven't used Campy 10, but have used both 9-speed Chorus and Dura Ace setups quite a bit. I agree that 99% of the difference is "just different", without an advantage one way or the other. Dura Ace is "silkier" and Campy somewhat more mechanical feeling.
The one difference I've found (which may relate to the finesse vs. brute force approaches) is that Campy is much surer when shifting while out of the saddle. Even when I don't time it just right, the Campy gear seems to shift perfectly, even in the middle of stomping on the pedals. Dura Ace shifts well if you time it right and are in a somewhat unweighted position, but if you miss, it feels like you're ripping the drivetrain off of the bike.
Since out of saddle shifting is the only advantage I've found for using brifters rather than barcon shifters, this matters somewhat to me. Must not matter that much though, since I still use barcons and downtube shifters on 5 of my six bikes.
|I agree, to a degree...||Cima Coppi|
Oct 26, 2001 9:52 AM
|Shifting the rear derailleur out of the saddle is flawless on my Ergo equipped bike. One thing I have noticed about my Ergo levers though, is that shifting from the small chainring to the large ring requires the maximum amount of lever travel on the left Ergo. This means that often I have to ratchet the lever twice to move the chain, a near impossibility when out of the saddle.
Not a complaint, just a comment.
|Never even thought to try||Ray Sachs|
Oct 26, 2001 11:04 AM
|I've never even contemplated shifting the front while out of the saddle - sounds like bad violence would ensue (unless you had real close ring sizes, like in a half-step setup). Do you actually do this? I'm guessing it isn't a big issue even for the pros as Armstrong, Pantani, and others use a downtube front shifter on the climbing stages.
I agree with the earlier point that you echo, though, about longer lever throw for front shifts with Campy than with Dura Ace.
|I agree, to a degree...||cioccman|
Oct 26, 2001 11:31 AM
|How many *clicks* in one one ratchet do you hear when using the left side thumb shifter? My Ergo rig? 4. Both sides. I don't have to double ratchet the shifter either way. Usually does take all four clicks when moving up or down though. On my DA rig I usually have to extend the shifter the entire length of distance to go up or down on the fronts.|
|3 or 4 plus 1||McAndrus|
Oct 29, 2001 5:03 AM
|On mine the standard throw is four clicks. It might be three or five, though if, for example, I've trimmed the front derailleur by one click between ring shifts. Then it could be one shift of three clicks or two shifts of four plus one.|
|Thanks for the objective review (nm)||Dave Hickey|
Oct 26, 2001 8:39 AM
|Shifting your thinking||DCP|
Oct 26, 2001 9:20 AM
|I am certain it would not take long to adjust to the different shifting motions if you were converting your only bike, but you now have two current rides. How difficult is it to switch back and forth between STI and Ergo?|
Oct 26, 2001 9:27 AM
|I have one bike with Dura Ace/Sti, but front downtube shifter, another with Campy 10 Ergo, and another with both downtube shifters.
As between Sti and Ergo, just remember this:
*This bigger lever always moves to a bigger (larger) cog/chainring. Then it becomes natural.
Even switching back and forth in the 508 with an IQ dropping to about 10, I never got confused. It becomes pretty natural.
Oct 26, 2001 11:51 AM
|Currently I regularly switch from training on my Campy road bike to racing on the weekends on my Shimano cross bike with no problems. Occasionally I'll get on the cross bike during warmup and shift to a smaller cog when I meant to go to a larger cog, but after the first reminder I never think about it again.|
|Eurus question ???????||CT1|
Oct 26, 2001 11:26 AM
|First off thanks for the good review. Nice to see non-inflamatory comparisons. |
OK....... Where did you find the wheelset??
I've already gotten my 02 Neutrons and now I WANT a set of Eurus wheels.... but my contacts don't seem to have them yet.
Any subjective opinion on the felt "speed" of the Eurus in comparison to non aero 20mm rim???
BTW: There are at least two cassettes in the Campy C10 line that have an 18. The 11-21 and the 13-23. I ended up making a custom 12-23 as follows:
12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21-23. It was a bit of a hassle building this cassette as I had to thin down a couple of the poly spacers. Probably took less than hour of work to do this but now I have a bitchin custom cassette.
JohnG please email me at firstname.lastname@example.org so I can get more info on the wheels. :-)
Oct 26, 2001 11:44 AM
I managed to get the first batch and then they sold out but as of this morning they say they have more in stock.
I can't really feel any difference between the Eurus and the Open Pro/Record wheels, but then again, I don't really notice much difference in most quality aluminum rimmed wheels. 30mm isn't really enough rim section to qualify as that aero compared to something like a Zipp 404/Hed Alps. I do notice that the bladed spokes make a cool sound though.
|Eurus question ???????||madbadger|
Oct 27, 2001 8:46 AM
|How did you split the 18 sprocket off it's partner in the cluster? I've been praying Campagnolo produce a 12-23 10sp cassette, let's get a petition going & mail it to Vicenza!
|12-23 C10 cassette build||CT1|
Oct 27, 2001 5:37 PM
It was a bit of a hassle "building" this cassette but IMHO totally worth it if you want the result.
Start with a standard Chorus MK2 12-25 cassette:
12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19-21, 23-25
remove and save the 19-21 and 23-25 and spacers for these cogs.
buy the following:
one loose 18 Campy 9 speed cog
one loose 19 Campy 9 speed cog
one MK2 21-23 cog
5 or 6 amber 9 speed spacers
I then had to sand down the amber spacers to match fit the new cogs. I posted the spacer #'s a while ago but don't know the link. If you want these #'s just let me know and I'll measure them next time I have the cassette off.
Another simpler way to get a semi-straight block is as follows:
Start with a 13-26 cassette and then just replace the 13 cog with a 12cog. I actually think this is a better combo. I doubt the 13 would be missed much.
12, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19-21, 23-26
FWIW, I found that it is MUCH easier to stay in a pack at 24-27 MPH now that I've got the 18. Before I was constantly jumping between 17 and 19.