|Let me put this up here where Doug can see it.||cory|
Sep 13, 2001 9:58 AM
|Sorry for the dupe--this is posted elsewhere, but I don't want it to get lost in the crush. It's for Doug Sloan, cc the rest of the rednecks:
This isn't the place to debate what you said (I'll be glad to do it privately), but you lose a lot of credibility when you hook "liberal" and "American-hating crap" in the same sentence.
For the record, I'm a 56-year-old Vietnam veteran, a decorated former Special Forces medic. Next to the birth of my children, winning my green beret remains the proudest moment of my life. I served my country as well as I could, and I can show you the scars.
I'm also a proud, thoughtful and considered liberal, and I'm sick to death of people like Limbaugh, Mike Savage and, apparently, you, hiding behind their version of patriotism while they attack mine. You can espouse any beliefs you want, but don't you DARE question my dedication to my country.
Got it, sucker? Any questions, e-mail me.
|Amen. I've got no scars to share, and not nearly the other||bill|
Sep 13, 2001 10:21 AM
|credentials or symbols of devotion, but, certainly for me, liberal does not mean unpatriotic. Although, I confess, not nearly as liberal as I used to be, and more libertarian, I still am what most would call a liberal, and, I assure you, my feelings for what is right are inextricable to my feelings for what is right for America. My study of law (not so much my practice of law, but that's another story) has led me to boundless, ineffable veneration for the US Constitution and its wisdom and possibilities. Although not quite the same as yours, Cory, I took an oath, too, that I take seriously. This is my country; I have no other.|
|Looks like we got us some||scottfree|
Sep 13, 2001 10:40 AM
|bad-ass liberals on this board.|
|Looks like we got us some||Lardog|
Sep 13, 2001 10:48 AM
|In fact ...||scottfree|
Sep 13, 2001 10:52 AM
|Two or three PO'd liberal Vietnam vets and two or three ballsy liberal cyclist gals in a sea of hammerhead right-wingers -- I like the odds!|
|re: Let me put this up here where Doug can see it.||atomicwedgie|
Sep 13, 2001 10:58 AM
|There was an ealier post that called these terrorist conservative. Calling a liberal unpatriotic is not nearly as bad of an equation as that.
Sometimes liberals are considered unpatriotic because the liberal leadership (hiding key facts) does undermine the principles that this country was founded on. Their followers(ignoring key facts)pick up the soundbites and run with them.
|OK, you seem to want a reply, so||Dog|
Sep 13, 2001 10:58 AM
|First, I sincerely respect and am thankful you volunteered to serve our country. I really mean that.
I don't question YOUR dedication. I don't know you.
My point in the various threads is that liberal thinking to the effect that "if we only understood them better, this would not have happened," is erroneous and dangerous. That sort of liberal thinking gets us in trouble. We are dealing with lunatics, and they will understand nothing but power.
I certainly do respect and agree with Rush Limbaugh. I am from his home town, and worked with his brother and grandfather there. I'm proud of that.
There is a pevasive liberal (at least associated with liberals) attitude that, in some respects, contains some derision for our country. It despises the fact that we have and use power, whether it be military, economic, or what. At the same time, the same people condemn us for becoming involved. It's hypocrisy.
I don't recall attacking you personally.
And what's with this "sucker" business? Isn't that a bit immature?
|"Right wing crap. Tired of it."||scottfree|
Sep 13, 2001 11:12 AM
|And I acknowledge my near-plagiarism of a great & thoughtful prior quote: "Frankly, I'm very tired of that liberal, American-hating crap."
One supposes only self-righteous reactionaries know what love of country is, eh?
Sep 13, 2001 11:37 AM
|if you think different or doesn't warship Rush or G Gordon Liddy it must be unpatriotic treason, dont ya know?|
|you are pathetic Dog||cyclopathic|
Sep 13, 2001 11:28 AM
|but yet again what can you expect from someone who is full and proud of it.
If we are to blame anyone for what have happened we have to blame our government
- third world countries can afford to install secure wall in planes to separate cockpit from passenger compartment
- third world countries can afford to install equipment to disable plane remotely
Speaking of "liberal crap" you can't go around and kill people (since WWII US were involved in several hundred conflicts, supplied weapons to terrorists) and don't expect that it never comes back to you.
And last "liberal" is from "Liberty" all founding fathers were "liberals" they fought for our Liberty
|No one here is pathetic||atomicwedgie|
Sep 13, 2001 11:50 AM
|Yes you are right, our founding fathers were considered liberal. In fact they were radical extremeist politically, however they were grounded in the most conservative ideals socially and morally. No they weren't perfect and niether am I.
We are Americans, and I'm proud and thankful for that. Our different opinions guide us SLOWLY toward goals of mutual benefit. That's the way it was designed.
|I thought we had all made up||John Evans|
Sep 13, 2001 11:51 AM
|Benjamin Franklin once said "Those who are willing to sacrifice a little freedom for a little safety deserve neither freedom or safety."
By afford do you mean spend dollars for freedom.
I don?t intend to start another big mess but I just couldn?t keep my big Objectivist mouth shut. I apologize in advance, as I may go home soon, I?m taking tomorrow off and this thread will most likely be buried by Monday.
|I thought we had all made up||Atomicwedgie|
Sep 13, 2001 11:59 AM
|One of my favorite quotes.|
|this is interesting thought||cyclopathic|
Sep 13, 2001 12:24 PM
|would airbags or belts in your car compromise your freedom in any way?
yes I meant spending $$ for some safety devices on planes
the idea that 3-5 people with knives can take over plane is quite disturbing
|OK, you seem to want a reply, so||R. U. Putinmeon?|
Sep 13, 2001 12:14 PM
|You admire Rush? That pompous windbag has done more damage to REAL conservatives than anyone. If you want a good conservative role model I think you could do much better. And anytime you say "we" or refer to liberals/conservatives you are generalizing. All this finger pointing and muscle flexing on the part of the US is pointless jingoism. Do you really want to go to war or is the media whipping you into a frenzy here? These are people we are talking about...not "liberals" "conservatives" or even "terrorists". Don't demonize your enemy or you will lose your humannity as well.|
|Taking a notch out of my respect for you . . .||Rod|
Sep 13, 2001 2:51 PM
I surely respect you as a valuable contributor to this forum on matters bicycling and otherwise. But your respect and agreement with Rush Limbaugh (and this is meant with equal measures of humor and seriousness) undermines my opinion of you. I admire many conservatives and liberals alike for their intelligence, and I find myself in agreement with some of each. I'm no expert on Rush, but the several times I've listened to him on the radio make me sick. He makes distorted attacks on anything he disagrees with and permits no intelligent debate on his program. I suppose he is indeed a conservative, but his behavior strikes me that he's a charlatin using a conservative cloak to mine a media fortune by appealing to simple-minded conservatives (and I'm not saying that all who agree with him are simple-minded, please) that appear to comprise that part of his listening audience who call in to express their agreement with his diatribe. OK, too much energy expended on the Rush factor; on to more interesting discussion.
What makes you think the "lunatics" who did this only understand power? It seems they understand only what they choose to, and altho I cannot prove it, nothing suggests they understand US power, military or otherwise. Conversely, our understanding the mindset of whoever is responsible for the terrorist attack wouldn't prevent it, either. However, if we had such collective understanding, we might reflect on foreign policies we have that engender, or contribute to, such hatred of the US. I suspect that terrorists and others who hate the US probably have their reasons, and the more articulate among them could probably explain it in ways we might understand and actually agree with.
I'm not saying this to identify myself as a liberal. I'm a moderate who thinks we should turn the perpetrators of the terrorist attack into dust. And I think it behooves us to consider if it's in our national interest to understand what we as a nation do that incites such hatred of us, and if it's also in our national interest to consider modifying policies that engender that hatred.
|re: Let me put this up here where Doug can see it.||harlett|
Sep 13, 2001 11:02 AM
|Thank you cory for making such a strong point. I am neither a liberal or conservative or any other political label. I look at each problem in front of me and try to be honest with myself and with the way I think through it. I wrote what I earlier posted at 3 am this morning after a day and night filled with reflections and conversations about yesterday. I apologize if my words offended anyone. I did not mean them to. I am a little taken aback by people so willing to criticize and think that somehow I love this country any less than them. There are NO differences in any of our appreciations for our freedoms and what this country stands for. NONE. I would never even think of condemning anothers' views simply because I didn't agree with them. There is no tolerance in my being for what happened yesterday. I am a thoughtful and caring woman and if any of you wish to denigrate my views so be it. You have every right to do so. But like cory don't EVER question my love for this country and everything it stands for. We would all be better off to "think" rather than rant and rage|
|I'm sorry if it seemed like an attack||Dog|
Sep 13, 2001 11:11 AM
|Didn't intend for it to seem like I was attacking you - I try not to do that.
But, sometimes it is appropriate to attack a thought. That, I did intend to do. Sometimes by having debate, such as these, we all come out of it thinking a little more clearly or seeing a side of something we did not before. I don't agree with those who say we must agree or cannot challenge another's view. Sometimes that is precisely what needs to be done, as long as it's civil and not personal.
This is a grave issue. Yes, we do need to be thoughtful about it, both now and in the future.
But, America just got punched in the face. Deliberately and forcefully. If someone did that to me, I'd not stop and think. I'd slug them right back without hesitation, as I think nearly everyone here would, especially if that could prevent them from hitting me or another person again. I think that is basically the situation here.
Thanks, and sorry for if it seemed personal.
|try to at least be honest about what you said||harlett|
Sep 13, 2001 11:37 AM
|"Frankly, I'm very tired of that liberal, American-hating crap. Sure, you have the right to say it (here, in the U.S., naturally),"<<<<<|
|try to at least be honest about what you said||scottfree|
Sep 13, 2001 11:57 AM
|I'm out too. At least we've proven we liberals aren't always passive 'victims' to the loud right wingers of the world.
Right on, and remember -- I STILL want Afghanistan cooked to smooth glass, if they were involved.
Off for a ride <<<<<<<
|Just a thought||Mel Erickson|
Sep 13, 2001 11:40 AM
|Doug, as an attorney I know you understand this country is based on the rule of law, not of men. Your analogy to being punched in the face and reacting with a punch can be clearly understood. I'm sure you also understand you could be in trouble with the law for doing that. Your previous comments were quite reactionary and implied a vigilante approach to solving the problem. Take 'em all out and ask questions later. We are more civilized than that. We don't have to stoop to the terrorists level. I, for one, cannot and will never condone the killing of civilians, whether done by others or us. I hope we find the bastards, try them and put them to death, legally. I hope we destroy their power to wage terrorists acts on us by destroying their capability to do so. But I hope we do it without harming innocent men, women and children. I know it's not always possible to do this and some will be harmed or killed. That is more than regretable and it's not just collateral damage. I hope to God we give civilians the opportunity to save themselves before we strike and will pray for them just as I have for our own people. If this sentiment makes me a liberal then so be it. I also think it makes me human.|
|re: Let me put down here where cory will see it||peloton|
Sep 13, 2001 11:47 AM
|Doug is obviously pissed at the events of the past two days. I know I am. We probably all are, and should be.
If someone posts something here that in any suggests that the US deserved this, or that there is an understandable rational behind the events, then they should expect people to react with emotion in light of the events at hand. Bear1 and Harlett's posts came across with the idea that there may be an understandable reason why this happened. IE- the US's foriegn policy. Trying to rationalize the thought process isn't going to endear you to anyone at this point in time. This is simply because there is no rationalization that is adequate for the damage that was inflicted short of pure evil and insanity. We may need to know the enemy to defend ourselves, but when someone's rational is evil there is no excuse. Public rationalization at this point comes across as sympathization, and no one wants any sympathy or understanding of these people. The fact that they were wrong is understanding enough for most. The understanding of the faceless enemy here will only come in handy to defeat them in the future.
What has happened here though, is that people are taking emotion meant at decreeing this evil personally. No one here has attacked anyone else's personal patriotism. People hear loaded words like 'liberal', and their brains shut off and the emotion pours. This way you refer to people as 'rednecks' and 'sucker' proves that. No one is doubting you. People are just angry, and anything that comes across as positive understanding of why this was done is going to be met with opposition. Don't take something that wasn't meant as an attack on you personally. Save your energy for these people who would really want us dead.
|I'm ashamed I couldn't say it that well||Dog|
Sep 13, 2001 12:02 PM
|Thanks. I'm done and won't be engaging any more.
I e-mailed Gregg when all this started, telling him that these political posts had no place here. He chose not to pull them. I wish he had.
|I sometimes feel||9WorCP|
Sep 13, 2001 12:22 PM
|that people resent Doug's popularity on this board and just simply lie in wait for him to poke his head out far enough to wack it off. If you've been on this board for awhile then you know the guy and everyone has a right to be angry about this mess. Give him some slack.
Regardless of the reasons behind the attack we are faced with an awesome threat. We're looking at 5,000 probable dead the numbers likely to rise. Our financial markets are closed and economic nerve center disrupted. These people tried to kill our President and attacked our defense headquarters. Does anyone think that if given the capability that these terrorists would stop at anything? Anything to bring down our country? In '93 they tried to blow the WTC up. 8 years later they knocked it down. A nuclear device is next. Do not doubt this I'm warning you. We have a grave enemy in terrorism and it must be eradicated regardless of any rationale. Be even-handed all you want but I guarantee you your enemy will not be. They want our way of life to end. They want us dead.
|Agree! At this point, I don't really care...||RhodyRider|
Sep 13, 2001 12:42 PM
|...about the "why" and looking for rationale. I don't want to "turn the other cheek" and "take the high road" and so forth. We need some swift and harsh justice here, and damn the cost to the civilian surroundings of whomever perpetrated this atrocity. They can get out of the way, if they like, because unlike NYC and PA and Wash, our retribution will undoubtedly be forewarned of. This has NOTHING to do with being liberal or conservative, people!! An eye for an eye, and a permanent end to terrorism if possible. I'm out of this now, too. Back to riding!|
|I am sorry, but I have to agree||Live Steam|
Sep 13, 2001 12:52 PM
|"An eye for an eye" is the perfect quote as this is part of their doctrine and something they will understand. We would only fall into their plans if we do as they anticipate - that is to take the moral high ground, to debate this until it looses it's sting. They expect our own feelings of humanitarianism to help keep them safe from our quest of revenge and justice. The Japaneese general who stated that " we have awaken the sleeping giant" understood differently, and I suspect that those that harbor and foster terrorists acts will find out the same truth. God speed to those that will serve these animals their due!|
|I think that maybe they want us to retaliate.||mk_42|
Sep 13, 2001 3:26 PM
|I think that perhaps you have it one-eighty. Do these people strike you as the kind of people that want to hide?
I think if anything they want us to strike back. I think they want us to put aside our beliefs. We are the couch potatoes and softies and they hate us for it. If we go "eye for an eye" then they've got what they wanted: a successful attack on our lifestyle.
Nothing personal, I just don't follow you logic to the same conclusion.
|Why cool heads should plan retaliation||Rod|
Sep 14, 2001 8:55 AM
I think I share your outrage at the attack and its perpetrators. But your desire for "swift and harsh justice here, and damn the cost to the civilian surroundings . . ." is exactly the reason for a thoughtful response by cooler heads. Your hot-blooded reactionary statement might seem OK if the terrorists are in fact hiding out in Afghanistan, where you likely have no friends or relatives. But what if, now just what if, the perpetrators are presently hiding in Los Angeles? Is it still OK to turn LA to dust in order to retaliate against the perpetrators and "damn the cost to civilian surroundings"?
Now, I do favor turning the perpetrators of the attack into dust, but that doesn't include also favoring turning innocent civilians - like the occupants of the WTC - into dust as collatoral damage, just because they may not be Americans. The "eye for an eye" strategy pretty much assures the perpetuation of terrorism. If you want to eliminate terrorism, you must seek out its root cause and eliminate that cause. Eliminating individual terrorists without eliminating the root cause simply serves to recruit more people into the terrorist fold.
|Rod, you are 100% correct.||RhodyRider|
Sep 14, 2001 10:27 AM
|My message was definitely from the heart, not the mind. I did not consider at all the possibility that the "perps" could be very sneakily hiding in plain sight, right next to mom & dad or some other totally unrelated party. My comment was narrow-minded in that I lumped the masterminds in with the other faceless middle-easterners who we seem to be focusing our rage on. My mistake, I'm duly chagrined. (Good thing I'm not in the room with the Joint Chiefs of Staff, eh?!?) Now that I've had a chance to consider this, maybe the catch phrase I would offer is "kill the head and the body will die."
|re: Let me put down here where peloton will see it||cyclopathic|
Sep 13, 2001 12:49 PM
|agree or disagree we have to blame noone but our government
you could install a couple thousands worth of equipment on planes which would make hijacking impossible: security wall to separate cockpit, equip to disable plane operation remotely, etc. 3rd world countries have done it long time ago.
There's a rationale our foreign policy pissed off many
dog cory others have no right to call names
|If planes were completely secure||peloton|
Sep 13, 2001 3:25 PM
|True, there are things that could be done to make air travel far more secure. But, if air travel were so secure that it wasn't a viable option for terrorist attack, then they would just find another way to get us. The anthrax virus could be put into an aerosol can and sprayed into the air of a subway, or even a city street. Afganastan, where Bin Laden is from is a part of the former USSR which has access to nuclear power. There are a host of ways that we could all be in danger, and there is no way to completely protect ourselves all the time. The US government is no more to blame for this than organized religion is to blame for sin. The US government would be to blame for future attacks if it were to do nothing now. We have to stop these people, or there will be more destruction.|
|Afganastan, where Bin Laden is from is a part of the former USSR||cyclopathic|
Sep 13, 2001 5:04 PM
|where on Earth did you get THIS??
who was your geography teacher??
Bin Laden is from Saudi Arabia (our ally) and CIA trained him
Afghanistan (not Afganistan) never was part of the former USSR
All former USSR nukes were completely secured (and that's why we poured all those billions in that drunk Yeltsin)
I agree there're many ways to carry out a terrorist attack
still doesn't mean we shouldn't expect our government to eliminate them we pay our taxes
|my last post||peloton|
Sep 13, 2001 7:11 PM
|Okay, so Afghanistan (my spelling is as bad as your grammar, so don't throw stones. okay?) is not the birthplace of Bin Laden, it is his current home as Sudan kicked him out a few years ago. We probably would have been better with him there, as we could better track him with his large business investments in the nation. He is a Saudi by birth. Afghanistan was a territory attempted to be controlled by the USSR, although you are correct in your geography.
Point is the same though. If airlines were completely terrorist proof, there are a host of ways our nation could be vulnerable. Biological, chemical, and even nuclear weapons of the non ICBM variety are something we should be very worried about. We can't expect to have complete freedom, and complete safety. Personally, I refuse to change my way of life. You can kill me, but your can't break my way. I would rather die with my freedom than to allow these demons to take that from me.
'Live free or die' New Hampshire's motto
Don't let these terrorists to achieve their goals. They want us to argue and to change our ways. Let's stop the stupid bickering, and stand tall. F@#$ them.
|lets go ride bike nm||cyclopathic|
Sep 14, 2001 5:32 AM
|re: Let me put this up here where Doug can see it.||Starliner|
Sep 13, 2001 12:03 PM
|You've got my support, Cory. This is not a time to allow our anger to fog our decision-making. We waited two months after Pearl Harbor before we made our first military counter attack. We've got to be level-headed right now so when and where we act, we do it right.
I found it sad to read Dog's foolish, hateful comments against his own people- those of us who have a different political philosophy than his own. Thankfully our representatives in Washington on both sides of the aisle have been able to put aside such feelings for "the other side" and are coming together on this issue at a time when it is needed.
It's time to be patient and strong, and to keep the faith. We'll make it through, but things are forever changed, and we've got to get used to it.
|My Final Two Cents, I Promise||Jon|
Sep 13, 2001 12:50 PM
|Excuse me all, but my reading of both Delia's and Harlett's comments was to the effect that if you |
want to be able defend yourself against an enemy you'd better understand him. Maybe I'm just a
dense Canadian, but I didn't identify those comments with any partisan political views. My own
viewpoint once more: we're all in this together and we'd better act accordingly.
My highest and best wishes for you ALL.
|This really disturbs me!||look271|
Sep 13, 2001 1:06 PM
|Can't we put aside our trivial differences of opinion as to who is conservative, who is right, who is liberal, who listens to Rush, yada, yada, yada. THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HAVE DIED. RIGHT HERE, ON OUR OWN SOIL. Can't we put the bickering away for just a while? We need to focus on how we can help, how we can find the bastards that did this, and how we can prevent something like this from EVER happening again. We must be united.|
|re: Let me put this up here where Doug can see it.||Marc|
Sep 13, 2001 1:30 PM
|Gentlemen, I thought that this was a bicycle forum, not a political forum. Enough, already. And you, Doug Sloan, who ought to know better, shame on you. You have repeatedly in the past written much useful material about bicycles and cycling and it has always been read and been much appreciated by me and by many others who read this forum. However, I really am not interested in your political beliefs or your opinions about Rush Limbaugh. Trust me, it does not enhance your standing in this forum. And with your considerable past contributions to this forum, you deserve only the very best. So, enough already, and let's talk about bicycles and cycling. Thank you all and god bless the United States!|
|I don't care about anyone's politics, but can you hold a line...||Tig|
Sep 13, 2001 1:36 PM
|...while riding? Can you take a pull? Will you field blow while I'm on yer wheel? Now that's what I call important in a cycling board!|| |