|Back to cycling?||Dog|
Sep 13, 2001 6:17 AM
|Let's agree to stop all the political and terrorism related posts. They seem to be overwhelming the board.
I, for one, feel a need to respond to disagreeable posts, so it may never end unless we all agree to.
Any more need for this here?
Sep 13, 2001 6:22 AM
|No. You've had your||scottfree|
Sep 13, 2001 6:24 AM
|considerable, weighty say to everyone. Now you're sated and want to call it off. No.|
|OK, go ahead...||Dog|
Sep 13, 2001 6:27 AM
|You are right, everyone who disagrees with me and those expressing similar opinions should get in the last shot. Let us have it, and I won't respond...
(Stated in a spirit of good humor.)
|Right-o, here you go||scottfree|
Sep 13, 2001 6:48 AM
|One thing I learned in Nam -- one printable thing -- is a notion Delia and several others have expressed or hinted at, a notion you have so loftily dismissed as 'liberal crap.' That notion is this: If you do not understand your enemy, you will not defeat him. The corollary is: If you cannot see yourself as your enemy sees you, your hubris makes you vulnerable to him.
What is 'crap' here is the blind jingoism that you and a whole bunch of others here heaped on some fairly thoughful posts, NOT ONE OF WHICH even SUGGESTED we appease the enemy or not retaliate for the attack.
If we had bothered to have a reflective discussion about Vietnam before we went -- not just blind jingoism like I'm hearing here -- we would have fought a better, smarter war and my buddies and I would never have been put in that impossible situation.
I am for bloody retaliation. I am for cooking Afghanistan into a sheet of glass, if necessary. But if someone wants to suggest that we try to see ourselves as our enemies see us, understand why they hate us so much, and understand that both sides in war suffer terribly -- my God, those are three core principles that every War College on earth teaches. It is not liberal crap, and Delia and the others deserve better than to be dumped on by God -- er, Dog -- for expressing.
|OK, I'll be silent nm||Dog|
Sep 13, 2001 6:55 AM
Sep 13, 2001 7:37 AM
|I was born in England, emigrated to the US, became a US Citizen, and married an Irishwoman. I know that relationships are complicated.
However, I'm also perturbed about assertions that the US should stay out of other nations' business. There has recently been a rash of criticism of the US for failing to act early and decisively in Rwanda. US participation in the UN relief mission in Somalia in 1992 was based on humanitarianism, but Osama bin Laden organized an ambush of U.S. troops there that killed 18 Americans. When we stay out of world events we are accused of bad citizenship, amorality, and isolationism, and when we step in we are always accused of having the wrong motives.
Let's get something straight. The things that make America able to help the world when it faces disasters and tyrants are economic might, military power, and a national commitment to helping the downtrodden. America is the softest-hearted nation I have ever known. We care deeply for the oppressed and the underdogs. But we're not going to allow that caring to invalidate the other things we stand for.
America is about freedom. That includes the freedom to make money, as well as the freedoms of religion, speech, and self-determinism. Bin Laden is angry at the US because we fought Iraq from Saudi Arabia, and because we support Israel, but he loved us when we supported HIM when he was fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. Has America fundamentally changed since then? No. But bin Laden wants to make the rules for us, as well as for himself.
We're not perfect. There are factions among us with selfish motives, but that doesn't mean you can throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, we should respect nations with different cultures and world views, but that should not and cannot prevent us from defending ours.
Nobody likes arrogance, and there are certainly times when we can be that way, and times when we should get punched on the nose for it. But murder is murder. September 11 was not self-defense; it was simple, peevish, evil, at no one can justify it under any circumstances.
|well stated||bianchi boy|
Sep 13, 2001 9:10 AM
|I don't know a single person who was not angered, depressed and devastated by the terrorist events. Emotions are running high, and we all want to see justice exacted. But I don't take I don't understand why anyone has to attack others, call them names (American-hating, liberal, etc.) just because they see things a little differently. |
As I grow older, I understand better and better the phrase "let cooler heads prevail." We all get angry, but actions taken in the heat of anger are seldom well thought out. Everyone needs to chill out.
|re: Back to cycling?||peloton|
Sep 13, 2001 6:41 AM
I agree with a lot of Doug's feelings that he has expressed. You would see a lot more posts of mine, but I erased many of them once I read the anger and expletives I had put down. It makes me crazy when I see people here saying that somehow the US deserved this because of foriegn policy. No one deserved this. There is no way to rationalize this insanity, and understand why someone would do something so horrible. Wrong is wrong. If you feel otherwise, maybe you should stay out of America.
The cowards that did this committed an act against all of humanity, not just America. They will be found. It would probably do us all some good though to talk about bikes and have some relief from this.
|Ever have your bike stolen?||nee Spoke Wrench|
Sep 13, 2001 6:54 AM
|The WORST thing they take from you is your peace of mind. You can replace the bike, but riding can never again be quite as carefree as before.
Likewise, the days of taking a flight somewhere, like getting on a bus, are over forever.
|Yes! My beautiful Trek 720||Kristin|
Sep 13, 2001 7:51 AM
|Okay. So in some ways I'm glad it was taken. It was a cheap bike. But I still cried for 2 days. I loved riding. The theif didn't just steal a bike. He/She robbed my way of life. I loved riding. Its as if someone said, "Well, you just don't deserve this anymore." And it cost me plenty. I paid $1357 for my new bike. That's $1357 I wasn't prepared to spend. Plus, I only recovered $149 of the $450 value of the Trek. I still sigh when I hear about people who ride their bikes to the grocery or out for breakfast. I can't leave my bike unattended for even 5 minutes. When I travel with it, it spends the day in my car, with a U-Lock on it. Even then, I worry. I've considered having a car alarm installed too. No, things will never be the same again...
Wow, I guess the theft affected me more than I had realized.
|Yes, It's not a big deal||bikedodger|
Sep 13, 2001 9:17 AM
|I had a bike stolen from my garage about 7 years ago. It greatly upset me at the time, but until our post, I had forgotten about it. Bad memories tend to lesson over time as life goes on.|
|re: Back to cycling?||davidl|
Sep 13, 2001 6:48 AM
|Yes, let's go back to discussing The Sport. I'm just like many others on this board in that I just cannot let slurs against our country, especially by outsiders, pass. The anonymity of posting encourages 'sucker punches' and it drives me crazy. There's bound to be a forum somewhere else for this stuff. I'm all for back to cycling.
|Good idea, Let's just agree to disagree...........||Len J|
Sep 13, 2001 7:06 AM
|This board is an example of why I am proud to be an American. We don't all have to agree, we can share honest views as we struggle to internalize a tremendously emotional event. We all will and should deal with this differently. It is our choice wether this becomes destructive or constructive to this RBR community. I for one choose it to be constructive.
I will not respond to any more political or terrorism related posts. I will deal with my thoughts and feelings on this elsewhere.
|re: Back to cycling?||jaybird|
Sep 13, 2001 7:22 AM
|Has anyone lost a bike or a LBS in the attacks?|
|re: Back to cycling?||DINOSAUR|
Sep 13, 2001 8:09 AM
|I've been locked in my house for the past two days, my eyes glued to the TV screen. I've seen a lot of terrible things due to my prior occupation but these acts are beyond believe. It also hurts because NYC was my place of birth.
I think over a period of time we will stop seeing these type of posts. It's very difficult not to respond to some of them. It's a matter of personal choice.
I for one am going to ride my bike today and try to get back to my normal schedule. I can only control myself.
|I'm boycotting the board until the terrorist posts disappear||Dog|
Sep 13, 2001 12:17 PM
|Sure, go ahead and applaud.
I come here to talk cycling.
Either Gregg pulls these, they fall off, or I'm gone. There are plenty of other forums to discuss these things. This forum is supposed to be about cycling, our passion, not a general political forum. So, I'll not be back until we return to cycling discussions.