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please excuse my posting this. I just need to get it out(48 posts)

please excuse my posting this. I just need to get it outharlett/Lauren
Sep 13, 2001 2:42 AM
america is about to be at war and, unless I am mistaken, many people are going to die in the middle east.
we were warned many times by arab extremists of "the explosion to come''. but we never dreamed this nightmare.
and yes, osama bin laden comes to mind, his money, his theology, his frightening dedication to destroy american power. I remember reading an interview with bin laden and his describing how his men helped to destroy the russian army in afghanistan and thus the soviet union. their boundless confidence allowed them to declare war on america.
there is no doubting the utter, indescribable evil of what happened yesterday. that some palestinians and others could celebrate the massacre of thousands of innocent people is not only a symbol of their despair but of their political immaturity, of their failure to grasp what they had always been accusing their israeli enemies of doing: acting disproportionately.
but we were warned.
all the years of rhetoric, all the promises to strike at the heart of america, to cut off the head of "the american snake'' we took for empty threats. how could a backward, conservative, undemocratic and corrupt group of regimes and small, violent organizations fulfill such preposterous promises? now we know.
and in the hours that followed yesterday's tragedy, in conversations with friends we remembered those other extraordinary, unbelievable assaults upon the U.S. and its allies, miniature now by comparison with yesterdays' casualties. did not the suicide bombers who killed 241 american servicemen and almost 100 french paratroops in beirut in 1983, time their attacks with unthinkable precision? It was just 7 seconds between the marine bombing and the destruction of the french three miles away. then there were the attacks on U.S. bases in saudi arabia, the bombing of our embassies and last year's attempt - almost successful- to sink the USS Cole in aiden.
all america's power, wealth - and arrogance, the arabs will be saying - could not defend the greatest power the world has ever known from yesterday's destruction
. and there will be, naturally and inevitably, and quite immorally, an attempt to obscure the historical wrongs and the blood and the injustices that lie behind yesterday's firestorm. we will be told about "mindless terrorism'', the "mindless" part being essential if we are not to realise how and why america has become so hated in parts of that land of the birth of three great religions.
ask most arabs how they respond to 10 thousand innocent deaths in new york and he or she will respond as good and decent people should, that it is an unspeakable crime. but they will also ask why we did not use such words about the sanctions that have destroyed the lives of over 100,000 children in iraq, why we did not rage about the over 17,000 civilians killed in israel's 1982 invasion of lebanon, why we allowed one nation in the middle east to ignore UN security council resolutions but bombed and sanctioned all others who did. and what of those basic reasons why the middle east caught fire last september - the israeli occupation of arab land, the dispossession of palestinians, the bombardments and state sponsored executions, the israeli tortures ... all these must be obscured lest they provide the smallest fractional reason for yesterday's mass savagery.
no, israel was not to blame - but we can be sure that saddam hussein and the other grotesque dictators will claim so - but the malign influence of history and our share in its burden must surely stand in the light here.
. america has bankrolled israel's wars for so many years that we have come to believe that this would be cost-free. no longer so.
it would be an act of extraordinary courage and wisdom if the united states was to pause for a moment and reflect upon its role in the world.
.but of course, the united states will want to strike back against "world terror'', and who can blame them? indeed, who could ever point the finger at americans now for using that pejorative and sometimes racist word "terrorism''? there will be those swift to condemn any suggestion that we should look for real historical reasons for an act of violence on this world-war scale and so evil.
when I was in graduate school I saw a documentary that tried to explain why so many muslims had come to hate the west. last night, after I spent hours praying for and thinking about the souls lost yesterday, I remembered some of those muslims in that film, their families killed by american-made bombs and weapons. they talked about how no one would help them but God. theology vs technology ( the suicide bomber against the our awesome military power) now we have learnt what this means.
as I caught glimpes of television during the last two days, the talk of retaliation was in the air; in the voices of some of the national-security "experts" there was a hunger for retaliation. even the journalists couldn't resist; speculating on a military strike that might come, peter jennings said that "the response is going to have to be massive" if it is to be effective. let us not forget that a "massive response" will kill people, and if the pattern of past U.S. actions holds, it will kill innocents. innocent people, just like the ones in the towers in new york and the ones on the airplanes that were hijacked. "mothers children and fathers, friends and neighbors" will surely die in a massive response.
if we are truly going to claim to be decent people, our tears must flow not only for those of our own country. people are people, and grief that is limited to those within a specific political/cultural boundary denies the humanity of others.
may we all find our own answers to the questions that yesterdays tragedy have given us. may we do it with reason and thoughtful deliberation.
one thing that's almost always missing ...bianchi boy
Sep 13, 2001 4:07 AM
in news coverage of Mideast conflicts is the WHY. The news always tells what happens, who is suspected or blamed, but never the underlying root causes. In years and years of coverage of Mideast conflicts, I feel that I have only a very rudimentary understanding of the real causes. I feel somewhat responsible because I have never been very interested in international affairs, but I do follow the news fairly closely -- and I don't think the news media have made much of an effort to explain why the passions and hatreds run so deeply in the Mideast. Obviously there must be some intense motivations for someone or group to have committed such unspeakable acts. I don't think we, as a nation, will ever solve this tragedy -- or prevent others from occurring -- until we understand better what's going on.
Why? Here's some historyTig
Sep 13, 2001 10:02 AM
These are a few very generalized facts on why Arabians have built a hate for the US as well as the UK and France.

Go back to the days of Laurence of Arabia. No, not the movie, but the real Laurence. England helped the Arabs to fight off the Turkish invaders successfully. The US and France helped a little as well. During this fight, we, (US, England, France) promised the Arab tribes that they would be able to self-govern themselves. Oil was discovered, and our need to fuel our growing industrial revolution replaced the promise to let them run their own governments freely. The US "helped" manage the Saudi Arabian government, as the UK and France "helped" others like Kuwait. Sure, we helped them industrialize, but they didn't have the freedom they wanted.

After WWII, the US spearheaded the re-establishment of the state of Israel. Now this is when we really started to tick them off! This was a slap in the face for the Arab/Islamic people of the region. We continued to support Israel every step of the way up to now. It seems that the Jewish population in the US has quite a lot of control over our foreign policy.

You know the rest... our placement and support of that criminal Shaw (spelling?) of Iran, Desert Storm, starvation causing sanctions, etc., etc., etc...

Just a few basic facts about the past. None of which can justify these militant faction's attacks against our country or other free democracies. Sure, the US is not perfect, but it is the best damned country in the world to live in, as well as receive aid from.
re:last few paragraphsdzrider
Sep 13, 2001 5:13 AM
I can only hope that we learn and remember that every time a bomb is dropped anywhere somebody feels exactly the way we feel now. Come to whatever understanding you reach about America and world politics to help make sense of this attack, but make no excuses for ethnic cleansers, warring nations, twisted patriots or terrorists.
liberal crapsoldier
Sep 13, 2001 5:15 AM
liberal crap - I agree - tired of itDog
Sep 13, 2001 5:26 AM
Frankly, I'm very tired of that liberal, American-hating crap. Sure, you have the right to say it (here, in the U.S., naturally), but I'm going on record stating that it is absolute crap. Normally, I'd be more articulate, but this doesn't even deserve the effort.

Doug Sloan
Mega-Ditto nmJohn Evans
Sep 13, 2001 5:42 AM
I know thinking for yourself is hard and beware Rush is a alienGail
Sep 13, 2001 9:10 AM
Anti-DittoJohn Evans
Sep 13, 2001 10:39 AM
I thought about the statement and agreed with it. As a conservative I must think for myself I can?t just regurgitate the pabulum feed to me by the liberal media.
Right wing crap. Tired of it.scottfree
Sep 13, 2001 10:47 AM
Learn to live with it.John Evans
Sep 13, 2001 10:56 AM
Learn to live with it.scottfree
Sep 13, 2001 11:24 AM
Like Shimano, there's no avoiding it. <<
Sep 14, 2001 9:30 AM
liberal crap - I agree - tired of itdavidl
Sep 13, 2001 5:51 AM
I agree totally. This anti-American crap just crawls out from under rocks. These people enjoy first amendment freedom, yet do not want to pay for it. Absolute crap!

Dave Loving
liberal crap - I agree - tired of itpeloton
Sep 13, 2001 5:56 AM
I agree.

All these thoughts seem to echo the feeling that America deserved what happened due to foreign policy. No one deserved what happened yesterday for ANY reason.

If you can rationalize what these terrorists did two days ago, you are no better than they.
liberal crap - I agree - tired of itBart S
Sep 13, 2001 7:51 AM

Liberal crap indeed. Pretty soon they will be blaming the victims. We are dealing with people who do not value human life, and see the willingness to compromise as weakness.

I hope we have the will to see this through to the end - as long as it takes.
huh?bianchi boy
Sep 13, 2001 8:13 AM
What is the liberal crap in saying we need to understand the Mideast situation better? If we just go off like hotheads and retaliate without fully understanding the situation, we threaten to perpetuate the same sort of violence that goes on and on and on in places like the Mideast, Ireland.

I never said we shouldn't seek justice or retaliate, once we understand the situation. I just think we run the risk of starting a whole new, endless cycle of violence if we don't fully investigate and go off half-cocked blowing other nations to bits. Once we have established who is responsible for these terrible acts, I think we should retaliate with full force.

However, I didn't see anything in the above posts that anyone could construe as "American hating." The Mideast nations have demonstrated through their endless squabbles that all their battles do is engender more hatred and more fighting. It goes on and on and on. Now we've been dragged into the fray. So do we continue on the same course and make it a world-wide holy war? Or do we try to figure out what's going on there and find some solutions?
Sep 13, 2001 9:36 AM
That Limbaugh link is showing, Dougcory
Sep 13, 2001 9:50 AM
This isn't the place to debate what you said (I'll be glad to do it privately), but you lose a lot of credibility when you hook "liberal" and "American-hating crap" in the same sentence.
For the record, I'm a 56-year-old Vietnam veteran, a decorated former Special Forces medic. Next to the birth of my children, winning my green beret remains the proudest moment of my life. I served my country as well as I could, and I can show you the scars.
I'm also a proud, thoughtful and considered liberal, and I'm sick to death of people like Limbaugh, Mike Savage and, apparently, you, hiding behind their version of patriotism while they attack mine. You can espouse any beliefs you want, but don't you DARE question mine.
You're way out of lineDon
Sep 14, 2001 10:34 AM
I'm not a what you generalized as a liberal. I have served proudly in the military as part of an elite combat unit. I have fought in defense of my country and have performed my country's bidding in conflicts that were not considered wars. I have also served many months in the Middle East (Sinai penin) as part of the Multinational Forces & Observers (MFO), i.e., the peacekeeping mission set in place by the Camp David Accords. I am proud to be an American.

Ignorance and turning a blind eye to cause and effect is not something to be proud of.

I am not Jewish and I have no strong religious beliefs, yet I support the continued existence of the state of Israel. I have a great respect for them and what they have accomplished. Anyone who takes more than a passing glance at Israel and the Jew's and Arabic history in the last 100 years, to say nothing of the last 3,000, will have a better understanding of the problems in the Middle East. The US has supported Israel staunchly, in right and in wrong. When wrong, we should recognize it and criticize it. This does not necessarily mean throwing them to the dogs, or allowing them to be overrun, but just announcing to Israel and the world that a wrong was committed, we recognize it, and don't support it. The same is true with the Arabs.

The US acts to protect its own interest. There is no denying it and in many cases, from an US-centric perspective, there may be little choice to do anything but look out for ourselves. BUT, imagine if the US was occupied by a force that was massively different in culture and social mores, one who prays to a different understanding of God. Then imagine you felt this force was influencing/controlling/manipulating events in your country to their benefit, a benefit which my not be in your best interest, the intrest of your culture, your beliefs. How angry would you be? Many in the Arab world are angry at us, but that does not mean they support what has happened. It does not mean they deserve to die for an act that some extremist splinter group committed. Tim McVeigh was in the Army as I was. Do I deserve to die for his acts because we had that in common?

I have met Arab and Jew, from fundemental and territorial Bedouin to liberal or fundemental Israeli. None were monsters and none behaved as anything but human. 99% of the time they treated me with respect and kindness even though I was an armed soldier in their country(s).

This attack on the US was not the act of the Muslim world. It was the act of terrorist, terrorist who perhaps had some level of state support. That we should hunt down every conspirator in this act is a given. That swift and terrible justice should be brought to bear on those involved is unarguable. But the innocent should not be slaughtered in pursuit of the guilty. We must do something, yet that something must be done more with understanding the root of the problem rather than simple massive retribution which can only give birth to a whole new level of martyrdom and terrorism. You have to understand your enemy to defeat him.

You don't have to hate America or be labled a liberal to believe that. You only have to think for yourself. Your own blind rhetoric and statements here present you as having much more in common with the thought process that committed this act than you may be comfortable in admitting.
Wow: good post....good pointDelia
Sep 13, 2001 5:40 AM
We are indeed blessed to be a country of such size and independence. Unfortunately, that does permit us to be somewhat ignorant of all the political 'issues' going on around us in a global sense. We trust in our countries greatness to keep us safe and 'isolated' from the strife all around us. The petty wars and squables of small un-nameable countries really don't mean much to us so we don't expend much energy in becoming informed of things outside of our own realm. Everyone says this attack came out of no where....was such a surprise...was so shocking. I'm really big on world politics and international affairs (hoping to go to grad school for diplomatic relations)and for those of us who were keeping an eye on human rights violations and terrorist activities, the 'success' of this horrible 'plan' actually depended on our 'not-knowing' what was up in the world ie. being so secure as to be not secure. Bin Laden had threatened time and again...the 'free-world' was attacked time and again and recently at that. Our 'heightened' airport security was minimal as compared with security in countries that were 100 times less likely to have 'security' issues. We just thought it couldn't/wouldn't/shouldn't happen to us. Well it did. I urge everyone to get their facts straight and do it in a hurry. Don't listen to everything 'people' say (just look at the ignorant retaliatory acts made on our fellow Americans) but take the time and do the research, find out and become informed. In this way, when we say 'NEVER AGAIN', we definitely mean business.
No, it wasn't. This was pure criminal, evil, insanityDog
Sep 13, 2001 5:53 AM
There is no good point to what was said. A better "understanding" of the goals of these zealots would not have made a difference, short of catering to their desires, which we will not ever do.

This was a pure act of criminal, evil, insanity. I could not care less what their goals were. This is not how the civilized world works to acheive its goals. I, for one, will not hesitate for even one second to attempt to understand them. Nothing short of eliminating them is appropriate.

Did you coddling, liberal, sorts say the same thing about the Oklahoma City bombing? Did you think we just needed to understand McVeigh? Certainly not. He was evil and insane, too.

This attitude of stooping to understand those who commit evil acts is wrong. They must simply be stopped.

Please do not misread people's postsDelia
Sep 13, 2001 5:59 AM
My point was that, they had made threats before and if we had been up on our current events we may have been able to prevent on some scale whatever minute...this catastrophe. I don't care what their propaganda is, I just think not enough of us knew they were that willing to shove it in our faces.
are you an arab?if american your a traitor move back to M.E.duh
Sep 13, 2001 5:48 AM
beam me up scotty. there's no intelligent life herezzz
Sep 13, 2001 6:06 AM
Geeznee Spoke Wrench
Sep 13, 2001 6:23 AM
A guy takes the time to present a fairly articulate point of view, and you simply label his argument as un-American while not addressing a sngle one of his points.

One of the things I like most about the United States is that reasonably intelligent people can hold opposite points of view and eventually arrive at a consensus. It's slow, it's cumbersome, it's often a pain in the ass and it's worked for over 200 years.

During my lifetime I have been witness to several leaders who espoused violent and hateful actions that seemed to their people to be justified at first. In the end, world opinion rallied to defeat them. None of those regemes lasted anywhere close to 200 years
Let's drop the post...Delia
Sep 13, 2001 5:56 AM
I apologize for putting my 2 cents in. I thought this was an 'intelligent' discussion about educating ourselves so that we may know our enemies. My bad.
no need to apologize, especially insincerelyDog
Sep 13, 2001 6:04 AM
While I agree that all of these posts don't belong on a bike site, when someone states something that is not only wrong, but even a dangerous way of thinking, I speak up.

Your "apology" is sarcastic, and very shallow at that.

The suggestion is that we "educate" ourselves so that we can somehow better understand "our enemies," presumeably so that we can work with them to avoid these mass murders, in other words, give in to them.

My point is, anyone who does these things cannot be reasoned with. This is evil and insanity.

The only better understanding we should attempt is to determine where they are and bring them to justice, or eliminate them if necessary.

Hey, we're all on the same side.Delia
Sep 13, 2001 6:20 AM

My apology was sincere. I don't know if you meant to be rude. I did not. I apologize if I came off that way.
OK, I'm done.Dog
Sep 13, 2001 6:30 AM
I don't hate you or anything. 10,000 people died. I'm pissed.

WOW dog, I guess ignorance really is blisszzz
Sep 13, 2001 6:21 AM
One for Deliascottfree
Sep 13, 2001 6:22 AM
Delia's the only person in this thread not talking like a jingoist pinhead. Good Lord. I've never seen such big tough guys guys jump so bravely on the tiniest little voice of reason.

And remember, I want to cook Afghanistan into glass.
Hey Roberge, go away.JS
Sep 13, 2001 8:05 AM
Sep 14, 2001 9:22 AM
There is an ignorance and denial in your thought process that will make it hard for you to reason your way through problems like this. Your arrogance is no different that those Islamic thugs that wish to silence any thought that disturbs their world view. To resolve problems we need to be aware of all the particulars of the problem. Your mindset is what the military values most though. A blind view of anything in front of it. Just listen to your leader for instructions on which way to walk. Thoughts are not dangerous my friend, they are what gives us our ability to SEE. When you talk of dangerous thoughts and your need to rid us of them you put yourself in that "holy place" when demagogues live. You would serve yourself better Doug by listening and learning from the well-thought out lines of reason of many than the sole voices that conform to the narrow mind-set you have now.
you're nauseating. thought this was bike board. nmSpiritual Haiku
Sep 13, 2001 5:59 AM
Let us get it out.9W orCP
Sep 13, 2001 8:58 AM
In comparison to the recent events biking is a trivial pursuit. We're people before we're cyclists. Don't think you can expect me or anyone to jaw about bike parts earnestly in the aftermath of this world changing event. The death and bloodshed is just starting to ramp up and you will be involved like it or not. Our world has changed. I say screw the bikes for now and let's talk amongst our friends.
re: please excuse my posting this. I just need to get it outLone Gunman
Sep 13, 2001 6:43 AM
As I said in a previous post, the Arab world in general, believes that Israel is the 51st state. This attitude is what fuels the sentiment. It is a battle (arabs and jews) that has been fought since biblical times. And it will continue most likely forever. As I type this, Pakistan says they support us but feel the way to deal with the taliban is to have relations with them, France is waffling over military support (Surprise!!), taliban is running for cover cause they know the big one is headed for there sorry asses. What effect do you think every phoned in bomb threat is having on people now? TERROR!!
I agree, and hope that cooler heads prevail.Alex-in-Evanston
Sep 13, 2001 6:46 AM
The gut response to terrorism is to describe it as evil and cowardly. I think if that is the limit of our understanding of this attack, we will increase the scale of our own danger, and hinder our ability to create a stable world. Perhaps it is wise to reflect that the country with the most brutal and punitive policy towards responding to terrorist acts is caught in a cycle of escalating violence against its own citizens, and those if its enemy.

We all wish for Israel and Palestine to put the oceans of their collective blood shed behind them, and find some way to exist without daily attacks of revenge. But blood calls out for blood, and neither can escape what they feel is their duty to the slain. This is our first test. I hope we can achieve in our own conflict what we knew to be right when it was happening to someone else.

Alex Randhava
We Are at War!!davidl
Sep 13, 2001 6:57 AM
You're not from around here, are you, ma'am ?
We Are at War!!scottfree
Sep 13, 2001 7:00 AM
Wasn't that what the Southern sheriff said 'In the Heat of the Night?'
Terrorism is...Tom C
Sep 13, 2001 6:59 AM
madness with method. It reveals liberal sentiment of some i.e. trying to understand the other side, it inspires fear, divisiveness, jingoism,knee-jerk retalitiatory impulsiveness i.e. looks like Bin Laden but of course no one is sure yet, but so what, shoot first, think later, and apparently from reading these posts and others on a variety of fora(forums)it is working. You are being manipulated emotionally. You are advised by parents as children, by teachers and counselors as adolescents that you are likely to do stupid things when angry or emotional.
Sep 13, 2001 8:32 AM
Lauren your critics either didn't read your whole post or I think you may have shot one over their heads. To understand the history of events gives you important knowledge. Without understanding the political and cultural and religious circumstances surrounding attacks like yesterday leaves one open to the propaganda of both sides. No where in Harlett/ Laurens' post did I see any indication that she was being tolerant or sideing with the people that perpertrated the terrible events of yesterday. My God if a reasoned approach is so threatening to you maybe you should think about what that means about you. . As far as the liberal crap goes, that seems too programed a response anymore. That's something that just masquerades a weak mind. I know that this is a time of stress for all of us. Let's at least try to be civil.
Jihad vs. McWorldMe Dot Org
Sep 13, 2001 8:51 AM
...this is the title of a 1995 book by Benjamin Barber about the "fundamental conflict of our times - consumerist capitalism versus religious and tribal fundamentalism".

A good read.

One thing that you can see by the response of the vast majority of countries in the world is the sense of interconnectness most people (and governments, for that matter) feel with the United States. This is in no small part brought about by the threads of information and commerce that connect the world.

One of the side effects of the world market of goods and ideas is cultural homogenization, a watering down of old cultural values. And conservative elements in ALL cultures (from Osama Bin Laden to Jerry Fallwell) ask for a return to old values.

No, I am not comparing Osama Bin Laden to Jerry Falwell. Jerry Falwell is not a murderer, a monster, and does not ask his followers to commit evil in the name of righteousness.

But if one wants to look within our own culture for corollaries to Fundamentalism, we can look at the bombing of abortion clinics, organizations with names like "God hates Fags", and people and organizations that are terrified of "race mogrelization".

People who, in short, see change as oblivion, and will stop at nothing to prevent it.
Just a couple of points ...Crash
Sep 13, 2001 9:20 AM
Like everyone else I have spent the majority of the last three days watching the news. You stated that America has ignored warnings of terrorism, I don't agree. From what has been televised there are sometimes over one MILLION leads and pieces of data that they obtain EVERY day. The budget for intelligence research has DOUBLED over the last six years. There have been countless attempts that have been stopped, I think it is more of a case that our luck ran out.
As far as the sympathetic countries protecting the terrorists, I appreciated G.W.'s statement that we will not make a distinction between the terrorists and the countries that harbor them. These countries can hate Anerica all they want, but when they start killing innocent people on our onw land, this is an entirely new situation. They wanted our attention, to teach us a lesson, I believe they are playing with the fate of their countries.
As Sen. McCain said: Make no mistake, we ARE coming. May God have compassion, because we won't.
So, where does all this get us?Largo
Sep 13, 2001 12:48 PM
The global "US", that is.
Reading the above post, nowhere does it legitimize these actions.
It only seeks to understand them, to avoid this sort of unspeakable horror from happening (to anyone)again.
America has the legitimate right to strike back against these "people" (whoever they may be), but will it be the end?
Any massive retaliation will only breed more hate, and therefore more terrorists, and more terrorist attacks in the future. It will be a never ending cycle.
An analogy: Modern medicine for years just treated the symptoms of disease, instead of trying to prevent the disease in the first place.
Got cancer? Cut out stuff and continue on.
well, now, medicine is starting to get to the root of the problem, lifestyle changes etc, with the result being a decline in some types of cancer, heart disease, diabetes.
A simplistic view? Maybe, but there are obviously issues out there that are breeding this type of hate, and sooner or later they will need to be dealt with, or i fear there will be more attacks of this type in the future.
So, where does all this get us?Rod
Sep 13, 2001 3:13 PM
Excellent analogy!

As we have so sadly learned, it isn't easy to stop someone who is very willing to die for his cause. If we do nothing to address the root cause of hatred of the US, we can only expect more of such attempts to attack the US.
thanks to everyone for taking the time to respondharlett
Sep 14, 2001 6:16 PM
I would like to thank everyone who took the time and thought to reply to my post. This is a subject that brings out passion/-thoughtfulness/-reason/-non-reason*S*--and evidently the best and worse in us. At the end of my post I asked that we all think about the questions this tragedy has given us in a reasoned and deliberate way . I would especially like to thank those that did that. All of us will not share the same thinking on this or agree on the answers we come to--- but I have always thought it's important to have respect for the opinion of others whether I agreed or not. That respect is what makes us a better community and nation.
thank you for being so graciousgail
Sep 15, 2001 6:06 AM
I learned something from your post and a few of the responses. The respect your talking about is lacking on this board and I'm sorry about that. I wish everyone would try and use more common sense and be less prone to use anger or ignorance at times like these. We are all in this together. off to ride my bike>>>>>>>