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Douglas Precision vs. Tomasini Sintesi(45 posts)

Douglas Precision vs. Tomasini SintesiFloorTiger
Aug 31, 2001 5:14 PM
I know most of you have seen the CC catalog by now. What do you think of this deal? Both are within 50 bucks or so of each other and both have full Ultegra. If you were 200 lbs and liked nice 50 mile rides or so, which one would it be? Does the spec sheet look equal? It pretty much comes down to the frame/fork combo - steel/steel vs. ti/carbon? I researched the archives and have heard lots of positive comments about the Sintesi, but not alot about the Douglas.
re: Douglas Precision vs. Tomasini SintesiSkunkWorks
Aug 31, 2001 6:03 PM
This is kind of like compairing latest technology to a piece of art. I terms of perfomance in the real world it probally is not that different, but a racer would take the latest techno-gadget bike. If you think a bike has a soul, then the Tomasini is the bike for you. If the mention of the word TITANIUM by itself is enough to give you a stiffy then go with the Douglas.
re: Douglas Precision vs. Tomasini Sintesirodemiles
Aug 31, 2001 6:24 PM
I've had the Douglas for about 2 1/2 months. I've been very happy with the bike. I had some concerns about buying a titanium bike, having never ridden one, but I found the ride immediately to my liking. I've been a steel rider for 28 years but the rust (I sweat like a pig) problem finally did me in. I opted for as maintenance free a bike as I could get, going with the polished finish. My understanding is that they no longer supply the bike with the Ritchey wheels, which has been my only problem. I had 2 failures, but CC replaced the wheels with Ultegra/Mavic Silvers. Not as trendy but a solid, dependable ride. Overall, I have no regrets.
Enough with the "soul" bullsh#$!!!!M1A1
Aug 31, 2001 7:33 PM
No offense to you in particular, but why do Italian frames only have "soul"? Just because it has a gaudy paint job and some chrome, that qualifies it for a bike that has something that a ti bike doesn't. I have ti and and Italian steel and the titanium speaks volumes more than the italian ride.
Bikes are inaniamte objects last time I checked and the "soul" that everyone refers to is a glorified way of saying that the bike feels right beneath you. That is what should "speak to you".
Titanium will give you the same performance as the steel, but it will be less maintenance and more durable. If you want a see a work of art, go to the museum. If you want to ride without worry, buy titanium.
A good analogy would be with exotic cars. More often than not the people that could afford them, never use them for their intended use. In fact, they pamper them and hardly ever drive them the way the are suppose to be driven. In my opinion, they aren't allowing these cars to live out their true function. They should be driven hard and to the limit, but instead people put them in the garage and only take them out on perfect days and never rack up miles. Why have it then.
You want a work horse, not a paint job. Buy the Douglas without paint and you will see you never have to worry about the finish.
My ti bike has more "soul" than any italian "work of art" because it is being ridden hard and therefore living out its destiny. If that ain't "soul" I don't know what is!!!!
Enough with the "soul" bullsh#$!!!!tr
Aug 31, 2001 9:38 PM
Whether ti is more durable than steel is questionable. Yes, steel can have a rust problem, but that is seen with those who don't take care of their equipment, and i see many of those. You shouldn't assume that everyone who has a nice light steel bike doesn't ride hard and often. I have seen plenty of aluminum and ti bikes that are property of couch potatoes. If you look closely at the material properties i don't think it supports your more durable quote. To have the same strength the tubes have to be bigger than a steel counterpart, just like aluminum. As far as properties, ti is in the middle between steel and alum. There is nothing wrong with someone expecting a nice paint job for a pretty big piece of change. Afterall, all cars aren't the same color. Besides, we all know that litespeed is selling aluminum frames now. Each frame material has a lot of hype associated with it, including ti. In reality, carbon is a much better material for tailoring the feel of the frame throughout.
Enough with the "soul" bullsh#$!!!!cycleguy
Aug 31, 2001 11:19 PM
Where did he say that only Italian frames have soul! I would say he was only talking about the two bikes he mentioned. Any bike can of course have that quality that some call soul. Sometimes it's because of the rider. Sometimes it's imparted from the builder. Someone who has spent their life doing what they were born to do and doing it better then almost anyone else. There are many frame materials and many more bike companies. But when you know the person who built your frame has spent his life for that perpose only it matters not where or what he uses. Just that he put his soul into that work of art!
fitHank
Aug 31, 2001 8:12 PM
sounds like you've decided to buy from Colorado Cyclist. Well, if the choice was mine, I'd take the Tommasini, because the 57 c-t bike would fit me quite well. The 56 c-t Douglas would be a bit small for me and the seat tube angle would be too steep, and the 58 c-t Douglas would be too big--the top tube is a bit longer than I like. Nothing to do with build quality or materials used -- fit should be issue number one. You might want to look into the fit thing a bit more, and maybe consider some more bikes -- lots to choose from out there. Colorado Cyclist isn't the only game in town.
re: Douglas Precision vs. Tomasini Sintesijavagenki
Aug 31, 2001 8:16 PM
I have no firsthand experience with Douglas Precision, so no disrepect. DPs are probably fine bikes. I have a TI bike by another US maker and understand the attraction of the zippy, gray wonder metal. But let me tell you about my Tommasini: I bought a Techno in 1994 and it is still the most beautiful bike I have ever seen or ridden. I still remember the feel of the bike the first time I rode it- the bike seemed to purr, no kidding, the vibration was something I had never experienced before. The tubes were alive! It was so responsive, I was a bit afraid of it at first. I kept thinking, "okay, if I reach up and adjust my glasses, am I going to change lanes or zip out into traffic?" Amazing sensations. I had owned 2 other big name, high end bikes, but I had never ridden a bike as fine as a Tommasini. And we aren't even talking about the bike's biggest strength yet: IT IS A WORK OF ART! You have got to take an hour or so and just sit down and look at one of these bikes sometime. They are beautiful! Its rich paint and cromed lugs are a constant topic of conversation on rides. There may be some of you out there who would get tired of hearing, "wow, that is a beautiful bike!" Uhm, not me. I could wax poetic here and tell lots of stories, but you get the idea. I had a friend who gave me a pretty hard time at first about buying a handmade Italian bike, as if a beautiful bike couldn't also be fast. His tune changed after just a couple of rides. While I wouldn't classify the Tommasini as overly quick, it is definitely fast. Here's another cool perk: ask the guys at CC for the bike's serial number before they send it. Irio Tommasini only makes about a thousand frames a year total. Chances are you'd be in double digits. There's something cool about being able to say, "mine's # 27." Hey, I know cycling is about being fast and all that, but if you can have your cake and eat it too, why not? My opinion, a DP is probably a fine bike, but a Tommasini is a Tommasini. Heck, I'm going to CC right now to see if they have one in my size.
"a Tommasini is a Tommasini"Dog Breath
Sep 1, 2001 12:22 AM
I would agree with that statement. They are beautiful to look at and a treat to ride. Perhaps it is the long top tube combined with the laid-back seat tube, tight rear triangle, and their own steel fork with a gradual curve.
And they are light!

Not only are the lugs chromed, they are also have cutouts, and the seat cluster has chrome highlites. And then there is the engraving, graphics and so forth. Tasteful, yet bold. Hard to describe unless you have seen one in person.

They are responsive to rider imput, but at the same time stable and comfortable.

They seem to be relatively durable. Most of their steel frames are entirely chromed, painted, and then sprayed with a thick clearcoat. The graphics are painted, not decals. If they are looked after properly, they will last. Some Italian bikes (Colnago, DeRosa) have a reputation for bad chrome. The Tommasini chrome is very shiny and it does not flake off.
oxymoron?W
Sep 1, 2001 5:28 AM
any steel frame that is entirely chromed ain't gonna be light... no way around it. chrome lugs, stays and forks may look cool (to some) but it really adds nothing. there are good builders out there that refuse to plate (anvil, steelman). and pantographing has been around since the old days
oxymoron? - not!Dog Breath
Sep 1, 2001 7:27 AM
The Tommasini Neuron frame has an advertised weight of 3.81 lbs, while the Techno Nemo comes in at 3.527 lbs. I would not call these frames heavy weights.

Chrome does have draw backs, but it does add a classic touch, and if looked after it is more durable than paint.
It is great on a chainstay thats for sure.
Fully chromed? I don't think so...Cliff Oates
Sep 1, 2001 6:14 AM
Unless the process is performed with perfection, chrome plating will not enhance durability but rather detract from it. For example, Waterford (a frame shop of some skill) states in their FAQ that they stopped chroming frame parts because of uneven quality control issues. Also, chrome plating is far heavier than paint and will result in a fairly porky frame. Of course, the Tommasini at nearly 6 pounds for the frameset, is a fairly porky frame.

I also wouldn't call the Tommasini top tube long. In a 57 c-t, their tt is 56cm. That's longer than Colnago, but the Douglas frame has a 56cm tt in a 56 c-t frame. My old 57 cm Bianchi had a 56.5 cm tt.
Think again!Dog Breath
Sep 1, 2001 7:48 AM
Tommasini's chrome is as good as any I have seen. I doubt they have any quality control issues. They are a small shop that does everything, including their own steel forks, in house.

The Tommasini Sintesi Neuron frame and fork comes in at 5.25 lbs (2390 grams). The frame alone is only 3.8lbs (a few hundred more grams than many Ti frames). Relatively light for a durable steel frame with a steel fork. If you wanted to shave some lbs one could add a carbon fork, which is an option if you special order.

In their catalog they state that they fully chrome their steel frames except for the Foco's. Having seen a Techno with chipped paint, I can tell you that they are not fibbing.

Full chrome plating is even an option of the Fire Foco model. They do not make it avail. on the Ultra Foco.

In considering the top tube length, keep in mind that the seat is measured center to top. ie a "54" (52.5 center to center) has a top tube length of 54.5. That is longer than any other off the rack frame I can think of.
And your point is?Cliff Oates
Sep 1, 2001 10:08 AM
Colorado Cyclist lists the weight of a 57cm Sintesi frameSET (steel fork) at 5 pounds 14 ounces. I have absolutely no reason to doubt the accuracy of their catalog. Tommasini's web site lists the weight of a 55cm frame at 3.81 pounds, so the Sintesi must use the worlds heaviest steel road fork (even heavier than the steel fork on my Waterford 2200).

From the Waterford web site:

Why don't we Chrome Plate all Waterfords?

Because a chrome finish looks so good on a bike, its strengths are overstated and its limitations are underplayed.

While chrome provides good protection against light nicks and scratches, dropouts remain vulnerable to rust as tight quick-release skewers bite though the protective finish. Chrome is also just as subject to problems with corrosion and peeling as a good painted surface.

More importantly, chrome cannot be used on heat treated steels such as Reynolds 753 and 853. The plating process compromises the benefits of heat treatment. Plating also adds much more weight than paint.

Waterford addresses this problem by using stainless steel dropouts on its Reynolds 753 and 853 equipped bikes. Stainless steel is somewhat softer than chrome plating (and even un-chromed chromoly) and, of course, it never rusts. Stainless steel cannot be chrome plated.

The W-13 and the new RS-11C do have chrome plated head lugs and stay tips. To do so, we use Reynolds 531 and 525 only on these framesets. These bikes receive special treatment from the outset. We polish the lugs and tubing before brazing and then touch them up again before sending them to the plater. Plating at the quality levels we like is very difficult and half the frames return to the plater to correct some problems. A high price and a long turnaround (3-6 months from order date) result from this special treatment.


If fully chromed frames is such a wonderful feature, then why doesn't Tommasini talk about this on their web site, which is after all, a marketing tool? If they are doing this to their Foco frames, which is a heat treated steel, then I'd sure as hell avoid buying one of those frames. There is no logical reason to chrome plate a bike and I don't buy it.

Finally, my Waterford is off the rack. It's a 56cm frame, measured center to top. Since it uses 1 1/8 tubes, then the c-c measurement is roughly 54.7cm. It has a top tube length of 56cm. I am at a loss to understand why you think the Sintesi is so remarkable in this regard.
Just giving out information.Dog Breath
Sep 1, 2001 11:23 AM
The Sintesi fork weight is listed on the Tommasini website @660 gms.

If you ride a Waterford you probably realize that weight doesn't matter much in most cases anyway.

The chroming process is listed in their print catalog. They had mentioned it on their website in the past, and it is mentioned in the Fire Foco section.

I have no opinion on the merits of the process, but the exposed chrome bits do look nice to some people. Maybe Waterford can offer the best opinion on chrome? Tommasini's chrome does not seem to be suffering.

Most frames in my size range, 52/53 c-c have top tube lengths one cm longer than the seat tube measurement. The Tommasini offers an add'l. cm. in top tube length. Its measurement and 73.5 seat angle are not typical of most frames in this size range although others like LeMond, Moser and Merkcx are similar.
Which I am calling into questionCliff Oates
Sep 1, 2001 11:58 AM
If the Sintesi fork is 660 grams, and a 55cm Sintesi frame is 3.81 pounds, then a 55cm Sintesi frameset should weigh 5 pounds 5 ounces. As I mentioned previously, CC lists a 57cm frameset at 5 pounds 14 ounces. 2cm worth of frame size does not add 9 ounces to a frame, so either Tommasini or CC is confused.

FWIW, my built-up Waterford comes in around a pound less than the weight quoted by CC in their catalog for a built Sintesi, but as the components are completely different, it's not a fair comparison.

Waterford has been building top quality frames for a long time, and when they publish something, I tend to believe them. You are expecting me to take your word that Tommasini chromes their entire frames, even Foco ones, which according to Waterford would weaken the frame. I always consder the source when I evaluate information, and in your case the source is someone with a screen name of Dog Breath. You are coming up short on the credibiliy score, which must be earned and not merely asserted.

FWIW, a 54cm c-t (52.7cm c-c) Waterford 2200 has a 55cm top tube, albeit a fairly steep steat tube angle. It's fairly normal for small frames to have longer top tube lengths when compared to average size frames.
Mr. OatesDog Breath
Sep 1, 2001 12:16 PM
I don't much care for your name either. But a name is not important, and I am not about to hold it against you.

I still assert that the Tommasini geometry (both the top tube lenght and seat angle) in smaller sizes is not that easy to find in other brands. Waterford's seem to be different as well.

Here is a bit of cutting and pasting from the Tommasini website:

It was born last year as the latest evolution of the TECNO EXTRA frame we re-introduce it with satisfaction after its great success. The frame has been realized with the HT THERMACROM CUSTOM FOCO tubing. The special section of the down tube has been studied, enlarging it to 38mm., to prevent troubles deriving from the use of a extremely lightweight and thin tubing. The tubing shape choice applied on Foco tubing derives from the technical need to preserve stiffness eliminating negative road vibrations reducing the risk of cracks of lightweight tubings. The frame is tig welded with an exception only: the personalized seat lug.

This along with the special bottom bracket shell, the original rear dropouts and the "bell shape" steat stays make the rear triangle properly stiff. The frame is built according to an exclusive geometry designed by Irio Tommasini. It is completely chromed, or as a second choice, all "cataforesi" treated, good for extremely thin tubings because it deeply protect them from rust. Maximum attention to detail: an example are the STI bosses (with adjusting screws included) brazed onto the head tube and the engraved enamelled head tube metal badge. Personalized carbon fiber forks available. The 55 cm frame (painted) weight approx. 1.550 kg (3.417 lbs).
That is indeed my nameCliff Oates
Sep 1, 2001 12:58 PM
And if you're curious, I've exposed some of my life on my web site: http://www.coates3.com. Somehow, I suspect Dog Breath is not found on your drivers license, but is rather a name you've chosen to identify with. It is not a handle that is a confidence builder for someone like me.

OK, so Tommasini is chroming (or at least plating -- translation errors are sometimes a factor in internal sites) their Foco frames. If I were in the market for that frame, based on what Waterford says about chrome plating heat treated steels like 853 (and Focus is also a heat treated steel), I would ask them about it. FWIW, the Tommasini site does not say they plate the entire Sintesi frame, just the lugs, forks, and stays.
If it goes - chrome it!Dog Breath
Sep 1, 2001 1:21 PM
Unless they recently changed their process, the Sintesi and Techno are entirely chromed. This is per the most recent print catalog I rec'd.

I have a Guerciotti that only has a chrome chainstay, but it too was entirely dipped. Rather than doing a lot of masking and polishing, they painted over most of the plating.
Tomasini SintesiDog Breath
Sep 1, 2001 12:38 AM
They often have close-outs this time of year. Watch their website.

If you choose the Sintesi considering spending a little bit more and upgrading to Campagnolo Chorus. I won't explain but if you do buy the Tommasini you will know in a short while why this advice was offered. One drawback with the Ultegra kit - it is a great value, but they may not any substitutions for handlebars, seat, and the like.


The Douglas seem like a great value compared to the other Ti bikes in their catalog, and the frame itself is around 300 grams lighter than the Sintesi. I would not let this small weight difference influence my decision too much.

I doubt if the Douglas can match the ride of the Tommasini.
However, the best people to advise you in this regard would probably be the folks at Colorado Cyclist.
why do you have to buy a bike from CC?DaveG
Sep 1, 2001 5:40 AM
I'm wondering if you are this indecisive on these bikes, why not go down to your LBS and ride some bikes and find one you like? Colorado Cyclist in not the only bike shop in the world. Perhaps, mail order is not a good place to start if you don't have a firm idea of what you want. Is saving a few bucks on a bike you don't know anything about really worth it? Both bikes seem like a good deal, but that doesn't mean they'll be right for you. Happy shopping
Dog Breath, you sure are anIridefar
Sep 1, 2001 10:11 AM
arrogant SOB. Your tone even in text is obnoxious. No wonder people can't stand you on this board. It leads me to believe you have no friends. Your knowledge of bicycles doesn't impress me at all as your preferences and biases are so one sided.
If it is an Italian steel bike with Campy, then it is automatically good in your opinion. If it is an American, Japanese or other bike with Shimano, it is of course crap. There are plenty of Italian frames that are more "fluff than substance" and just nice paint jobs. You have an antiquated ideal of a romanticized Italian racing bike that simply doesn't have the power it once had. Althoug there are still some great Italian frames, the american builders are surpassing them in technology. Even Fuji puts out some very underrated frames at very good prices that I would take over some of those gaudy Italian bikes.
You seem to put a lot of emphasis on value as well as the more expensive rides are seen as overpriced in your eyes. So you are a cheap basta$% as well. I hope people don't listen to you because you are a rude, obnoxious blow hard who is more impressed with the words that come out of your own mouth than others will ever be.
I read your comments on the photogallery and you really have nothing nice to say about some nice Litespeeds and C'Dales and others. Keep your comments to yourself unless it is constructive and not "that is a walmart bike".
I guarantee you that if everyone started riding Tomassini bikes, you would start to hate them because they would be too "common". So if I were you, I would stop touting your classic italian bikes because if too many people listen to you and buy them, they will lose their "mystic" and become too trite.
Dog Breath rides far as well.Dog Breath
Sep 1, 2001 11:48 AM
Your generalizations are way off the mark. (I do like Campy though, but then so do alot of other knowledgable cyclists.) People are entitled to their opinions and bias.

I could careless about where bikes are made. Sachs, Moon, Marinoni, etc. All great bikes, none of them made in Italy.

Not every Tommasini or Italian bike looks like the ones in the CO Cyclist cat. They are available in plain or peanut.

The Technology in many of todays frames comes from the tubing mfgrs in Italy. Columbus and Dedacciai.

I have given positive reviews to a number of Ti and Al bikes. (Litespeed, Cannondale, Moots, etc. Some of them wore Shimano even.) Go figure.

I have to watch my budget, having four expensive bikes now, and am planning to add another. Sorry, but people have their limitations.

Must confess, I am kinda glad though I made you so upset!

Two big thumbs down for you and your rant, Lazy Rider (Sloth Rider) whatever.
TWO thumbs up for Dog Breath...tirider
Sep 1, 2001 3:56 PM
... on this post. I saw nothing here that suggests that your were being arrogant or a SOB. Have you found Jesus Christ or some cult religion? I thought you were informative, enlightening and succinct in your thoughts.
I would however go with the Douglas...tirider
Sep 1, 2001 3:59 PM
...if I wanted a european masterpiece I'd sleep with an Italian chick.
TommasiniTig
Sep 1, 2001 10:47 AM
I can't speak for the Sintesi since, like most in here, I have never ridden one. However, I owned a Tommasini Diamante in the past and absolutely loved it. Sure, it weighed more than other frames, but the ride was perfection. Someone mentioned the quality of the paint, lugs and the details. Not an understatement! There are very few builders at this level. Looking at one will tell you that they put the maximum attention to quality. Riding one will tell you just how far they take that quality to. I'd still be on that bike with it's Campy Croce D'aune/Chorus if I didn't crash it hard in a race. At least it died in glorious service... racing! Damn, now I'm reconsidering my next frame choice. This brought up many wonderful memories of many hours in the saddle on that fine machine. No... no tears! LOL
Dog Breath holds his own.javagenki
Sep 1, 2001 2:05 PM
I am really enjoying this discussion, but you guys are going to have to work harder if you want to bring down Mr. Breath. An informed, road-tested opinion is not bias. Its passion or knowledge or style (in a dog breathish sort of way) and a far sight better than "you like Campy, you are an SOB". And who asked about the Waterford? A Waterford is an increadible bike--a handmade bike worthy of an honest comparison with a Tommasini or any of the other frames in that class. Heck, I'd be proud to own a Waterford. As William Lewis, the Tommasini importer, told me when I bought my Tecno, "there are a few bikes in the world as good, but none better." I've got 7 years on my Tecno that make me want to put an exclamation point on that statement. I have honestly never met a Tommasini owner who had a bad thing to say about the bike other than, "its better than I am." Same goes for Waterford. While I've done some nasty things to my bike, it has never let me down. Anyway, arguements about my A-list bike (or components) being better that your A-list bike are boring and elitist. Let's get back to the original question posted: should I buy a Tommasini or an entry level ti bike made by a noteworthy builder who has made his name using a different frame material? Wow, I reckon that is as close to a no-brainer as one can get. Ti is a wonderful frame metal, but how many folks are waisting their energy flexing an entry level ti frame down the road? I've talked to too many this season. If the question were something like: "new Litespeed Ultimate vs. new Tommasini?", I'd have a harder time siding with the Sintesi listed at CO Cyclist. But then again there's a pretty big jump in price between those 2 bikes, isn't there? A Tommasini is a super bike at just about any price point, but considering the original question, its the obvious choice.
Dogcrap, why do you bring me into thisLazyrider
Sep 1, 2001 2:28 PM
argument? I am not the only person on this board that thinks your an a$$hole. Just look at the last big disagreement and see how many others chimed in on you and your rhetoric. So why do you bring me into this one?
Go ride your bike into traffic. Hey were you that fat basta@@ I just passed on that brand new Pinarello and pro-team gear?
But you brought yourself into it :-)mike mcmahon
Sep 1, 2001 2:58 PM
A tip: You need to learn to alter your unique writing style when you start posting under a different board name. And please, consider the forum pact and RBR rules before posting all the profanity and name-calling. Thanks.
Mike, like I said beforeLazyrider
Sep 1, 2001 3:29 PM
your persistence and obsessiveness concerns me. Whoever Iridefar is, I happen to agree with him, but I definielty am not that person. I think you need medication for your delusions to quell you conspiracy theroies. And I don't think my "writing syle" is all that unique as I see many people writing in one big paragraph. I am not in graduate school anymore, so I don't need to worry about grammar and paragraph structure here. You and Dogsh#$ should get together sometime. You can be each other's only friends. Loser
No, you didn't say that before.mike mcmahon
Sep 1, 2001 6:17 PM
Your alter-ego Slothlike did. Here's the post:

http://forums14.consumerreview.com/crforum?13@@.eeb874c/11

You need to get a better handle on the history of your various personalities. FYI, I find your conduct in posting under various names annoying because I used to post on another board that fell victim to a few people who posted under numerous names. One by one, the regular posters started dropping off until only a few multiple personality types remained. I don't even visit that board any more. Although I don't think we're in imminent danger of the same happening here, I find it intellectually dishonest when a person posts messages in the same thread under different names. Even more unusual is the fact that you appear to have responded to your own alias, commending him for bringing reason to a discussion of Litespeed frames. You seem to use aliases to give other posters the impression that your position has more support than it actually does. In my opinion, this type of posting is more destructive to a board than is name calling or profanity.

You may think I'm obsessed with you. I can assure you that I'm not. I have a family and a lot of friends, many of whom I've remained friends with since elementary and junior high school. I can also assure you that I'm not delusional and I don't suffer from conspiracy theories. I'd just like to do what I can do to keep this an open and honest community. If you want to keep posting under numerous names, that's your business. Just don't be surprised if I call you on it.

Finally, I apologize to any other members of the board who have wasted their time reading this post or others on the same subject. Even if you don't care about this, please indulge me. Thanks
No, I'm sure Lazyrider didn't say thatmike mcmahon
Sep 1, 2001 6:47 PM
However, as you will see below, Slothlike said it more than once:

http://forums14.consumerreview.com/crforum?13@@.eeb9d47/38

You'll feel better when you 'fess up, Slothrider.
Mike, I did say it before, but I am notLazyrider
Sep 1, 2001 7:07 PM
a friggin nut like you that I will go searching all around for it. Are you DogBreath? I see similarities in the way you guys think. Regardless, I don't care because you are both annoying as hell. You are a wierdo man. I noticed you said you have a lot of friends and family, but no girlfriend. I know why, the poor girl would get the 3rd degree when she takes a dump for too long. Bottom line, go ask DOgBreath what he likes to eat and go out for a nice meal and some romance. A little fellatio may relax you and DOgcrap has a lot of practice licking his own a$$, so he'll do a great job on you I am sure.
Later
Homophobia, how surprisingmike mcmahon
Sep 1, 2001 7:13 PM
As patriotism has been called the last refuge of a scoundrel, gay-baiting is the last refuge of a man who has no rational argument to make.

BTW, in case I wasn't clear enough, by "family" I meant wife and kids. And though it's really none of your business, I give my wife as much time in the bathroom as she needs.
How about $20 to make it worth your time?mike mcmahon
Sep 1, 2001 8:28 PM
Doing a search on this board is really quick and easy. All you have to do is hit the "search" button and then type "Lazyrider" into the box. Your results will include all posts containing that term, including all of your posts. Reviewing these posts will take just a few minutes. If you can link me to a single post from before the current thread in which you (as Lazyrider) say to me anything remotely similar to "your persistence and obsessiveness concerns me," I promise to send you $20. That's $20 for no more than 10 minutes work. If you can't do this, all I ask is that you admit the truth and start posting under only one name. If you can provide the post and are concerned about me sending the money directly to you, I can mail it to a neutral location where you can pick it up or it can be forwarded to you. Deal?
Roadie77 aka Lazy Rider...Dog Breath
Sep 1, 2001 7:55 PM
Roadie77

Key Lazyrider words and themes:

Loser, no friends, queer, homo, etc.

http://forums14.consumerreview.com/crforum?14@@.eed5c21/2

http://forums14.consumerreview.com/crforum?14@@.eed5c21/4
You need to work on your...Cliff Oates
Sep 1, 2001 2:29 PM
reading comprehension. Dog B. can have the last word he craves. I remain unpersuaded. That's where I'm leaving things.

In terms of the original poster's question, I would hate to have my world defined by a CC catalog. I buy frames from my LBS and parts from mail order. It's working out OK for me.
You have just give yourself the last word Mr. Oates. nmDog Breath
Sep 1, 2001 3:52 PM
indeed he seems to have to have the last wordMugs
Sep 1, 2001 4:12 PM
but you are still an arse Mr. Dog Breath
You can lead a horse to waterford...javagenki
Sep 1, 2001 3:56 PM
Dear original poster. I agree with many of the folks on this site. Check with your LBS first. They are the ones who are going to take care of you down the road. If you have an LBS in your area that sells Tommasini, go ride one. Ride it hard, and inspect it with a magnifying glass. That should fairly well settle the rhetoric, red herrings, and angst flying through this string. I would then read the postings of those who own and ride Tommasini. Check with those who have ridden the other bike as well. Odd that we haven't heard from them yet? Anyone out there ride the other bike in question? Ask them about flex when climbing, hammering, and sprinting. Ti bikes are a marvle, and maybe this one is a keeper. I would just be cautious at this price point, especially if I weighed more than 200. Who needs a "forever frame" that just doesn't perform? It is interesting that those who "remain unpersuaded" are those who have yet to pedal stroke one on either of the bikes in question. Uhm, thanks for your input?!? Also, avoid the Italian vs. homegrown rhetoric. That's not the issue. There are plenty of very average, big name Italian bikes out there. If you buy a bike because of where it is produced, your head is in the wrong place anyway (too much Breaking Away?). What you are looking at is a question of production vs. craftsmanship. What's the difference between a good bike and a great bike? Pipes, lugs, attention, skill, builder experience, passion, time, many things. But there IS a difference. And forget what the bike looks like. That's all just icing anyhow. Go ride a Tommasini, and I think I know what you'll do. Any other Tommasini owners out there with advice for this guy?
You can lead a horse to ...Cliff Oates
Sep 1, 2001 5:53 PM
All sorts of stuff.

A lot of people here think highly of the Tommasini. I wasn't arguing with that, and I wouldn't mind owning a Tecnos. I just disagree with some of DB's specific assertions. He set off my hooey alarm.

You should note that the only time I offered up my specific bike for direct comparison, I discounted the heck out of that comparison. I did use Waterford as a source of generic knowledge on steel frame building, and since their experience stretches back to 1938, I think that's a fair use. They do know what they're doing and I have a high regard for whatever knowledge they share.
the problem is...Tommass
Sep 1, 2001 6:07 PM
Tommassini owners gush about their bikes about as much as Airborne or Litespeed owners... hard to take seriously.
No, seriously.javagenki
Sep 1, 2001 7:53 PM
Gush, gush, gush.
the problem is...Tig
Sep 2, 2001 9:00 AM
If you've never even ridden one (regardless of WHAT bike brand or model), you shouldn't say anying negative about it unless you have facts.
TommasiniJimboj
Sep 9, 2001 7:58 AM
I have a 56 cm Diamante frame I may be getting rid of in the near future. Frame is in good shape with just a couple paint chips here and there. I'm not a racer and getting up there in years (37). Head angle is just a little steep for me. Good ride though!! Let me know if you're interested. Thanks.