|Gios & Pinarello||flying|
Aug 19, 2001 9:11 PM
Great site glad I found it.
After 13 years on a steel Masi Gran Corsa I am considering a new frame.
Funny as I rarely read the magazines etc. But after looking it seems most of the Italian frames offer an aluminum model now.
I was thinking of either the Gios AL90 2001
or the Pinarello Surprise.
Has anyone compared the two?
Also what is the big advantages or drawbacks of alum vs steel?
All of my riding is climbing & decending. I live at 4000' & get to sea level in 30 miles. I also have the option of climbing to 9000'.
So as you can see it is as I said all ups & downs ;-)
I thought the aluminum frame might be better for the climbs but wonder about the decents? Back when I bought this Masi in 88 the only alums were Vitus & they had a rep of top tube wobble on decents. Is this all cured now with the larger tubes or better aluminum?
Thanks for any help given,
|Why Italian aluminum?||bike_junkie|
Aug 19, 2001 9:43 PM
|Really. The best Al frames are American. If you really want Al, look at Klein and Cannondale, or even companies like Santa Cruz and Ellsworth who do killer Al frames. American builders have been doing nice Al frames for years, while the Italians and their short warranties, are the new game in town. On a budget? Then check out the Taiwan-built Giant TCR line, very nice ride for the buck. Al frames have indeed come a long way since the Vitus of '88. If you want stiffness, Al is good, but you may enjoy the smooth, solid ride of steel or Ti a little more coming down those descents.|
|i've seen al cinnelis and pinarellos||colker|
Aug 20, 2001 4:36 AM
|i know people who are riding them. these guuys have ridden cannondales and say the italian bikes are better. |
it seems aluminum bikes are riding better than steel now.
Aug 20, 2001 5:29 AM
|i considered the suprise, but ended up with a klein quantum. the quantum package weighed a bit more than 18lbs and the finish and craftsmanship are top notch. the suprise definitely has style factor but weighs considerable more than US al frames that actually cost less.|
|Best AL frames are American?!||mmaggi|
Aug 20, 2001 6:36 AM
I'm not knocking C'dale or Klein. I'm sure they make fine AL frames. But to make a blanket statement about Italian AL framebuilders being new to the game is not true.
Italian framebuilders such as Casati, Masi, Pinarello, Derosa, Colnago, Bianchi, Pegoretti have been building AL frames for years. Although their warranties are not as long as the Americans doesn't mean they're frames aren't built any better or worse. I haven't heard of any Italian AL frames failing anymore than the American ones.
As a matter of fact, the Casati factory in Monza and Pegoretti have perfected the welding of newest Deda aluminum tubing U2 to which no American companies are currently using. Why? Because it requires different welding procedures and processes to make a frame as strong as other heavier aluminum alloys used in the past.
When it comes to frame building, Italians are second to no one regardless of the materials used. So I don't know what led you to make an incorrect statement such as that.
Aug 20, 2001 6:57 AM
|US builders are not using Deda U2 because Deda will not sell any real quanity of tubing to them. This has been the same story for other high end tubing coming from Italy. Luckily, we have Easton (Scandium, ProGram) and other US premiere metalworks to supply us with what I would consider the best tubing made from the most advanced materials coming out of US and Soviet aerospace experience.|
|Don't know about that||mmaggi|
Aug 20, 2001 7:44 AM
|I find it hard to believe that companies like Dedacciai and Columbus don't sell enough to American framebuilders.
In the states, there are more companies than in Europe that produce metals that could be used for framebuilding.
For the record, I have no idea what tubes Cannondale or Klein use to build their frames.
All I'm saying is that a good Italian framebuilder (and there are many of them) are as good at building frames than any American builder regardless of the material. To believe otherwise is narrow minded, IMO.
I don't want to diminish the skills of a good frame builder, but we're not exactly talking about shooting rockets to Mars when it comes to framebuilding.
|believe what you want...||bike_junkie|
Aug 20, 2001 7:47 AM
|Little Italy makes some nice steel rides, but their Ti and Al stuff isn't on par with North America. Just less time spent perfecting the art of light and durable Al. It helps to have a super company like Easton on your side as well. All the companies you name made their name in steel, and it's what they do best. Small companies like Casati and Pegoretti can't possible have the cash, tools, etc to compete with a giant like Klein/C'dale who does ONLY Al. Italy is only doing Al because of the market's thirst for lightweight frames, which was brought on by folks like Klein & C'dale. |
A friend rides a CAAD6, and his last bike was an Al Fondriest. No comparison. I'm sure you ride an Italian bike and want to defend her honour, that's okay.
|believe what you want...||mmaggi|
Aug 20, 2001 8:11 AM
|You're comparing CAAD 6 to an AL Fondriest. Fine. The CAAD 6 was built in 2001 witht the latest tubing. Right? What year was the Fondriest built? Was it at least the Dedacciai SC61.10 model?
I'm not comparing from a business standpoint who's a bigger company (I won't say better becasue bigger is NOT better).
But do you really believe that a company like Klein (who probably produces 5,000 frames per year if not more) or Cannondale (who probably produces 10,000 frames per year) build better frames than Casati (they make about 1,500 frames per year), or Pegoretti (about 500 frames per year)?
If you had to guess who pays more attention to quality, who would you guess? If you had to guess who's more interested in producing the most amount of frames in order to make the most money, who would you guess?
Again, I'm not saying the Italians build a better frame. Not at all. All I'm saying is that Italian frame builders build as good an AL frame as anyone else. The top-of-line frame offerred by the majority of framebuilders in the world are excellent frames and no one can really say one frame is better than the other. It's such a subjective argument.
For the record, I ride a Casati Forma (Deda SC61.10 tubing). Wanted a Pinarello Prince but it was too much $$$. Why do I ride an Italian frame? NOBODY finishes them better. NOBODY.
At the level of riding that I do (I don't race, but I ride with Cat 3,4,5 racers) I can't imagine that the space age tubing Klein or C'dale is using is a better option than Deda or Columbus tubing.
Aug 20, 2001 10:05 AM
|that top shelf italian tubing only makes its way over here in small quanities. ask any US custom builder how hard it is to get deda/columbus's best steel tubes.
anyhow, as for the kleins, the AL they use is aerospace grade (meaning more tests and purity than regular commerical grade) and their finish work, craftsmanship, and reputation for durability and performance are second to none, on par with any italian builder.
Throughout the history of European professional cycling, Klein was called upon to build frames, specifically for climbers and others looking for a lightweight and durable frame. In fact, Zulle's "italian made" (i think pinarello?) climbing bike, when he rode for ONCE and Banesto, was a Klein. (BTW, I used to sell them, and I do ride one as well. No corporate connection anymore).
They build equitable frames when compared to your "smaller" Italian builders. and they pay plenty of attention to quality control and manufacturing tolerances.
However, I will say simply "ride what works for you"
Aug 20, 2001 10:54 AM
|I guess the American tube manufactures are pushing out Italian companies :-)
On a serious note, I do know quite a few who ride Kleins and C'dales. For the most part, they're happy with them. I'm sure the differences in ride are minimal from from one frame to the next and at my level, it's negligible.
But I can't imagine an Italian AL frame being better made (or welded or better performing) than a frame made in NA or vice versa. IMO, that's a silly statement.
It boils down to looks and what you like which is clearly subjective.
As you stated, ride what works for you.
|sometimes bigger is better||bike_junkie|
Aug 20, 2001 10:33 AM
|because it translates into more money for R&D, equipment, and technology to build the best frame possible. |
You say nobody finishes a frame better than the Italians. You don't mention a specific material which the Italians finish better than all others, so I'll assume you mean all materials.
I have to disagree. Talk to a Colnago dealer about the prep work needed before assembly, then talk to somebody who's built a number of Sevens, Serottas, Moots, I.F., Strong, Steelman, Waterford (and on and on) and the level of prep needed to get the frame built is less. We're not even talking about alignment yet. Unless when you say "finish" you are talking about paintwork, which is all a matter of preference.
Let's agree to disagree. -Tailwinds to you.
|sometimes bigger is better||mmaggi|
Aug 20, 2001 11:04 AM
|Sorry. I should've been more specific.
Finishing to me means the quality of paint used in the paint job, no stickers (the name of the bike is painted on), smooth welds, matching stem and anything else you can think of. That's what ultimately seperates all high-end frames made from company x vs those high-end frames made from company y.
Again, I firmly believe that C'dale's HIGHEST of their HIGH END frame is no different performance wise (and frame builder wise) than a Klein, Casati, Pinarello, Derosa, Trek, Colnago, etc. They all use high end tubing regardless of who makes the tubes.
The differnece lies in how the frames are finished off. This is where IN MY OPINION the North American frame builders fall short (the Richard Sachs of world EXCLUDED).
|Isn't Italian paint...||waitaminit!|
Aug 20, 2001 11:14 AM
|known for notoriously being crappy? Like chipping easily, flaking off, etc. Are you sayin' that lookin' pretty is more important that proper frame prep?|
|Isn't Italian paint...||mmaggi|
Aug 20, 2001 11:20 AM
|If you re-read my posts, you will see that I've stated all along that regarding frame building, there's no difference between a high end AL Italian frameset and one from North America.
Regarding paint jobs, you're entitled to your opinion. I've never had a problem with a paint job with any Italian bike that I've owned, nor do I know anyone who has a problem with the paint on an Italian frame (and I know many riders who have Italian frames).
|Isn't Italian paint...OVERATED||racingforglory|
Aug 20, 2001 11:37 AM
|italian paint, or any paint for that matter (except dupont imron, which is absolutely lucious) is overated. the pickiest amongst us can argue that leaving paint off the bike saves valuable weight. bare AL and carbon frames are the way to go!|
|Flying- Gios & Giant TCR Test||zelig1|
Aug 20, 2001 4:39 AM
|There was a comparison test in ProCycling, either last year or 1999. I think I still have the issue and the reviewer was Robert Millar, former pro rider. I don't remember which Gios model they tested except that it was Al. If you want a copy, I can scan it and email the article to you. Just let me know and also if the email on your post is the correct address.|
|Flying- Gios & Giant TCR Test||flying|
Aug 20, 2001 8:10 AM
Thanks that would be great.
Yes that is my email on web. This one is my home email.
Thanks again I appreciate it.
|re: Gios & Pinarello||GregJ|
Aug 20, 2001 6:52 AM
|The Surprise is a great bike. It's only weakness is that it is a little heavy for Al. You will still end up with a respectable weight bike however. I have had mine for a year and I think it is wonderful. Pinarello bikes have a relatively short top tube in any given size, you should take that into consideration, I don't know how it compares to the Gios. Expect great riding characteristics from the Pinarello.|
|re: Gios & Pinarello||flying|
Aug 20, 2001 8:12 AM
Yes even my Masi is a bit short on the top tube.
I have had to use a long stem. But also my Masi was the wrong size.
52 were I needed a 53 or 54. ;-)
Didn't stop me from ridomg it for 13 years though ;-)
But this time I will buy the right size.
|Thanks for all the replies||flying|
Aug 20, 2001 8:15 AM
|Thanks folks for all the replies!
I am sure both US & IT make great alum frames.
I have always leaned toward Italian bikes. I have a
full Chorus group from the Masi that I will move to the new frame.
Thanks for all the input.
|What?? Small diameter frame tubes can cause||raler|
Aug 20, 2001 1:52 PM
|the infamous speed wobble?? No arguments on this yet?|
|What?? Small diameter frame tubes can cause||flying|
Aug 20, 2001 3:03 PM
|Well I mentioned that based on 1988 Vitus type frames.
Back then the tubes were the same size as a steel frame.
Could also be that the alum was not as thick walled?
Anyway I rode with someone who had one. When we decended fromm 9000'
( very steep hills ) he would sometimes get a mean wobble which could be cured by clamping his knees against the top tube.
So I guess it was a tube flex induced wobble ;-)
Scary to say the least at those speeds. 60mph was normal on that hill.
Aug 20, 2001 3:32 PM
|Months ago we had a big debate over the causes of speed wobble. Most disagreed with a flexible frame as a possible cause, stating that it was caused by a fork or bad wheel.
I think its the frame too. A big steel frame is a good candidate for the wobble along with a Vitus, of course.
By the way, where do you live, it sounds like good riding.
Aug 20, 2001 11:29 PM
I live on the Big Island of Hawaii.
Im at 4000' elevation. So I have a choice of decending 30 miles to sea level & coming back up ;-)
Or I can climb from my house to 7000' & come down. But & this is a big but...... The climb to 7k is only 10 miles.
Back when I was in shape ;-) We always tried to see how much under an hour we could do it in. I think 52-54 was my best time. It is a grueling climb.
We also use to go to Maui for a race called cycle to the sun. It was 30 something miles & went from sea level to 10,000'.
It was a great race but I have been out of touch the last few years & wonder if it is still run.
|that sounds great||raler|
Aug 21, 2001 8:56 AM
|Been to hawaii twice but never to ride. Next time I'll have to bring a bike. Your lucky to live there, its great.
I do a lot of climbing also and prefer al over the other materials for the weight and stiffness. They also ride better downhill in my opinion.