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need legal advice...went onto driver's property to confront(38 posts)

need legal advice...went onto driver's property to confrontishmael
Aug 17, 2001 1:56 PM
when riding back from the local pizza store with a cheese steak (which i was carrying in a bag hanging from my mouth)..i took a left when the light went green and a lady opposite me went the same way (a moment after me)...she ended up pushing me into the opposing lane and i was pissed..so as im going along behind her i decided to follow her into her driveway and confront her..i was very civil, asked her if she could please be more carefull next time and asked her if she even knew that she had endangered me...she screamed at me to get off her property and then changed her mind and that i should wait as she was calling the police..i thought that was rediculous but i would wait if she wanted...she sat on the phone looking mean saying "yes, no, and i cant say right now" while i waited...when the cops came they told me to get against the wall and handcuffed me (i dont know what she told them) and then finally gave me a citation for disorderly conduct (50 to 300 bucks)...it said that she was afraid for her safety on the citation but i was in no way physically or could be construed as verbally threatening...i want to take it to court because it seems extreme..the cop said that since she was a woman its different because she is easily threatened..her house was about 40 yards from the road ...do i have a case....

on another topic pennsylvaia bicycle laws say that bicycles are concidered vehicles just like cars, and,there isnt an exact minimum speed limit (it has to do with obstructing traffic only)..can a bike take a lane if going within 5mph of the speed limit
Problem Isgrzy mnky
Aug 17, 2001 2:22 PM
You would have a right to make a citiziens arrest if you felt she threatened you with a deadly weapon - her car and the way she drove it. The problem is you were on her property where she got the upper hand and you didn't have any witness to back you up. She probably told them that you were on heroin, flashed a gun, and that she feared for her life. She switched the tables on you and the cops gave her the benifit of the doubt. I almost had this happen to me when a Silicon Valley fat cat nearly swiped me in an aggresive manner and a smirk with his Mercedes SUV then shot up his long private drive. My mistake was we were in Woodside which has a very clear line between the bike lovers and haters. A woman ordered me off the property and I backed down realizing that I'd probably lose - I was annoyed, but not pissed off to the point of not being able to think.

A pacifist would say let it go and ride very defensively and love everyone - Visualize Whriled Peas. As an anarchist and a not quite reformed juvenile delinquent I'd say there are a lot of things you can do, but none of them are legal. My favorite would be to do something to the car in the dead of night - like snip off all of the valve stems, tacitacally place roofing nails under the tires for when she backs out (she'll never quite make the connection), sugar + urine in the gas tank, key it up one side and down the other, dog crap on her mailbox (probably a federal offense), order up 9 cubic yards of concrete for her, get her phonme number and ring her up from a phone booth anytime you happen to be out really late at night. The list is endless and can be really fun if you use your imagination. You know where she lives and as long as you don't get caught she can't prove a thing, but she'll know it was you. It could get very expensive for her and she could send a hit man or the cops your way. Then it's really going to suck to be you.

The adult thing would be to go to court and fight it and use the legal system as it was intended, but that's not much fun, and you can't be assured that things will turn out right. So then get all juvenile on her a$$. It all depends on how much of a deliquent vigilante and how mean you are.
a pleasure to imagineishmael
Aug 17, 2001 4:04 PM
maybe ill do just one...she was such a bitccch
Yahgrzy mnky
Aug 17, 2001 5:59 PM
As wrong as it is it's even more fun to do it! Holiganism will set you free!

I hate to say that I've actually done some of these things and worse when I was younger. It's been a real challenge to not do some of these things to a few of the b@st@rds/b!tches that deserved it.
We really get the shaft, don't we?Live Steam
Aug 17, 2001 2:23 PM
I would certainly suggest you retain a lawyer for your fight, but I believe you were within your rights. Here property is essentially public domain if it doesn't have any means of impeding your access such as a fence or a gate. This is why the cop didn't cite you for trespassing. As for how the cops treated you, handcuffing you was extreem. I would submit a civil complaint against the officer personally. It was unjustified. It is her word against yours, but if she is the person we suspect her to be, she will have someone available to say that they heard you use some threatening language. Get some good legal advice. This is a good reason to join the League of American Bicyclists. I am not sure about this, but they may be able to help you, as they are an advocate for cyclists rights and safety issues.
Dude, that sucks! What you shouldLazyrider
Aug 17, 2001 2:35 PM
have done was give her the finger and call her a stupid cu#$. You're attempt to be civil backfired and now it will wind up costing you not only aggravation, but also money for a lawyer. Following people home is threatening if you really think about it. I am from New York, and people aren't civil. You don't know what you will get especially if you cross that boundary of going near someone's home. Giving them the finger and cursing lets them know that you are angry, lets you blow off steam while not crossing that personal space boundary. I am sure a lot of people will disagree with me, but I am a creature of my environment and that is the way it is done. I get angry at drivers, I speak my mind and I ride on. Unless they have contact with you or cause you harm, let it go with some good profanity and crude gestures. Remember Reginald Denney? He was a nice guy who just should have kept driving. Learn from that.
Da Fingergrzy mnky
Aug 17, 2001 2:50 PM
Well the finger is a great signaling device, but in some places it will get you into some serious trouble. In Boston or NYC it's all part of the game of driving - so it's sporting - hit the 'burbs and it suddenly changes. Do it to someone who's having a really bad day and you could end up dead - no foolin'. The real trick is too not let it get personal. Sometimes that immediate feedback lets the clueless driver know that they just did something wrong - many will never even figure it out.

You gotta ride defensively and anticipate that drivers are going to do some stupid things - always think and look and make it a game. Get in their head b/c they're never going to get in yours. Avoiding a confrontation is a lot better than getting in one, but emotions sometimes rule and before you know it you're flipping them off. The cycle of escallation can be deadly as we are reminded by the news everyday.

I'm afraid that the original poster's only real choice is to work with in the legal system and get some representation. Even if he wins the court case it'll be a hollow victory b/c he's not addressing the original problem: her driving.
re: need legal advice...went onto driver's property to confrontjtolleson
Aug 17, 2001 3:04 PM
First, the citizen's arrest (with some VERY narrow exceptions) thing is an old myth and don't say that in court for fear of losing all credibility.

You are not trespassing by going to someone's door to speak to them (or sell something, or whatever). You are trespassing when you refuse to leave. It doesn't sound like she gave you a chance.

I think if you fight the citation it will get dropped. I'd be skeptical to say that a muni cite like that is even worth getting a lawyer, but ...
you're screwedDog
Aug 17, 2001 3:15 PM
You trespassed (entered another's property with permission), you did it while "pissed", and you confronted her.

I'm having a hard time figuring out what happened initially from your description. You were making a left, and her a right? Sounds like she may have had the right of way.

The "I'm going to teach someone a lesson" attitude can get people in trouble. You almost never really do teach them anything, and you usually end up just "pissed" and looking foolish doing so. Getting pissed gets people in trouble.

At the least, I would have high-tailed it when she picked up the phone. You had no obligation to stay. You should know better -- who are they going to believe? Some sweet, scared old lady and property owner, or some punk (not how I see it, but the cops) in tights? Plus, I've seen many times, people, even sweet old people, will lie like you wouldn't believe when it comes to protecting themselves or their freedom (driving privilege).

Following her was one thing, but don't ever enter someone else's property in anger. That's, literally, crossing over the line.

Dog
I don't agreeLive Steam
Aug 17, 2001 5:53 PM
Walking on to someone's property is not trespassing unless it is protected by some form of physical barrier. Mailmen, delivery men, poll takers, salesmen and all sorts of people enter our properties every day. They cannot be prosecuted for trespassing. That is why the cop did not do it here. However, I have to agree that our friend here was wrong in so far as what he did at the intersection. If he made a left hand turn he must yield to those ahead of him either going straight or turning to his left. It is amazing how many people these days feel that they must turn first when making a left at an intersection when the light turns to green. They have the angle sort of speak and they just gun it. They do this so they are not inconvenienced at having to wait for the other person to either go straight or to turn. This is very agressive and just a sign of what our society is like - a ME FIRST MENTALITY.
doesn't help...filtersweep
Aug 17, 2001 6:00 PM
doesn't help turning left if you don't own the lane, and cars are passing on both sides of you... and hanging naked owning a lane without holding up a car behind you is a recipe for disaster- my worst nightmare even on a motorcycle, people just don't see you if that are approaching the intersection at speed
not quite right - trespassingDog
Aug 18, 2001 5:56 AM
Entering someone's property without permission, or remaining there without permission, is trespassing. Has nothing to do with barriers. Sometimes permission is implied, factually or legally. The postal carrier has permission implied in law. Invitee's and licensee's have express or implied permission. If you order a pizza, it's implied (or expressed) that the deliverer can come to your door.

The concept of a barrier strengthens the owner's argument that permission was not given, but is not dispositive. While there may be implied permission to come to the door, there may not be that one may enter the door; the case of a locked door even stronger.

Sometimes a person can be invited, by implication or expressly, but then a trespass occurs when he fails to leave when requested to do so. When the owner says "get off my property", that message carries legal significance. You better leave without hesitation at that point. It doesn't matter whether there is a barrier (otherwise you could set up camp on someone's front lawn and stay there, right?).

Arguably, the rider had implied permission to step onto the lady's property to speak to her about the incident (probably not, though). But when she said to leave, he should have done so right then.

Why did the cops not cite him for trespass? We'll never know. You can't reverse engineer the law by reasoning that because they did not cite him for trespass, then they could not have. Frequently cops will cite for the greater offense and not for lesser included or associated offenses.

The rider could have taken her license plate down or followed her to see her address, and then communicated with her. You just can't go onto someone's property to confront them, though, and at least must leave immediately if requested to do so.

Dog
not quite right - trespassingDINOSAUR
Aug 18, 2001 8:24 AM
Citizens arrests are a can of worms: In Ca a Peace Officer can not ignore a citizens arrest. The officer does have the option of whether to cite and release or book. You could have turned the tables and made a citizens arrest on her for a unsafe lane change, as it's sounds like that's what she did. Proving intent is difficult. When you appear in court (if it makes it that far) take the time to carefully and tactfully explain the curcumstances to the judge. On the bad side you will probably have to hire an attorey to represent you, unless you qualify for a public defender. Then if the case goes the whole route and you are found not quilty you can turn around a sue her for false arrest, again you need to hire an attorney.

I think the bottom line is, what it worth it? I think not. When you confront people you never know their state of mind or who you are dealing with. People are strange and some fly off the handle for little insignificant things. A lot of our popluation are completely wacko and the rest are on medication, so it's a wonder we don't get run down like a bunch of drowning rats on a sinking ship.

Let us know how your case proceeds, this should be interesting.

Additional: When I was working as a peace officer and I was presented a citizens arrest, I always explained to the arresting person that if the person they were placing under arrest was found not quilty, they could turn around and sue for false arrest. I never had one person follow through with the arrest. Most departments go the complaint process and let the D.A. call the shots. Unless it is a felony and that is a different ball of wax. With no independent witnesses it makes prosecution difficult. Perhaps the officer explained this fact to the lady, and if she followed through, she is foolish. It's not worth the risk on either of your parts.
not quite right - trespassingMel Erickson
Aug 18, 2001 9:02 AM
One reason they may not have cited him for trespassing is because she changed her mind and expressly told him to stay as she was calling the police. Sounds like an invitation to me.
not quite right - trespassingDINOSAUR
Aug 18, 2001 11:41 AM
Yeah, when she said "leave or I'll call the cops" and he elected to stick around and eat his sandwhich, I think he was asked for it. Sometimes it's best to eat a little humble pie and move on....
re: need legal advice...went onto driver's property to confrontfiltersweep
Aug 17, 2001 3:29 PM
My guess is that if you take it to court, the woman won't be there. I don't know what type of offense this is, but if it is like a ticket, it might just be you and the judge (like fighting a traffic ticket). If it turns out to be a big enough deal, they *might* reschedule if for a day the officer can attend. Did the officer take a statement from you and put it in his report? If not, it might sound like you are just making an excuse for your behavior. Also, if you don't have any record, you'll stand a better chance of "getting out of a fine." (I've never been "disorderly" but I've been "noisy" a few times in my misspent youth).

If she was opposite you, did she take a right? A left turn does have to yield... or am I missing something here.

My guess is the woman gets paid back ten-fold with her own bad karma. She could have at least apologized and gone on with her day- the fact that she'd rather call the police speaks volumes for her character (or lack thereof).

"Can a bike take a lane...."- it would be suicidal around here, legal or not! For starters, traffic is well above the speed-limit everywhere... seems like it would encourage road-rage.
Learning experienceCliff Oates
Aug 17, 2001 3:42 PM
If my memory serves me correctly, you're 17 (or maybe 18 by now). Your age is going to count against you and kill any credibility you might otherwise have. That may suck, but life is like that. I think you're in the middle of a learning experience. If you were handcuffed, then in my opinion, you're a slow learner. If you go in front of a judge, I would suggest you learn the contrition lesson in a hurry. If I were you, I would focus on getting out of this with minimal costs. You've already lost, the question is how much?
Learning experienceVlad the Impaler
Aug 17, 2001 4:13 PM
Good point. I think the cause is already lost. Ishmael should be in damage control mode now. Cut your losses. Also, I've found that when one is in an agitated state, what seems calm and cool when talking to someone, usually isn't. So when Ishmael followed her on to her property she probobly did feel threatened. If this situation had happened to me I would blown it off. If it happened to me five years ago I would have given her the finger, cussed her out and forgot about it. If this had happened to me ten years ago when I was full of piss and vinegar I would have remembered where she lived and rendered her car useless at a later time.
re: need legal advice...went onto driver's property to confrontUgo
Aug 17, 2001 3:50 PM
You have the right to a trial, and the right to confront the witnesses against you under oath, in a court of law-USE IT. It's just a citation and, from your post, does not carry jail time. You probably don't need a lawyer but you should do some research on the municipal regulation cited. From your post, trespassing is not relevant as you are charged with disorderly conduct. On the day of trial
-be on time
-bring your witnesses (if any)
-dress in good (clean) clothes
-be respectful to the court, and
-be polite to everyone (especially the clerks and cops).
Tell the judge or magistrate what happened. Remember, you're under oath. And don't bring any contraband or valuables into the courthouse as you could get stepped back (just kidding).
Good luck.
First...UncleMoe
Aug 17, 2001 4:00 PM
1. Decide if you want to fight it. A lawyer is going to cost you a hell of a lot more than $300. Is it worth it?

2. Find out the definition of Disorderly Conduct in your state. Some states are probably very specific. Does what you did fit the definition? If it does, don't bother fighting it, you'll lose.

3. We had a few discussions about stuff like this a few weeks ago. Drivers are idiots. Ride defensively and when someone is stupid, just be glad you didn't get hurt and move on.

4. While I like grzy mnky's idea of revenge, well now you have a motive and who knows if this lady is connected with the police. If she is they'll investigate any tiny little incident for her and you will be the first suspect.
Being from PA and been around the legal..Lone Gunman
Aug 17, 2001 4:57 PM
system of the Commonwealth, you are fortunate that you were not charged with assault. The mere threat of violence is grounds for the charge. Trespasing, was also a possibility. You think that is bad, one of my buddies got his ass hauled into criminal court for sending flowers to a girl he used to date, several years after they parted. She lived in another state, he never visited her there, never called or emailed or anything, just sent some poseys and was charged with stalking. Had to go through counseling and pay a grand or more for Attorney, and then had to appear in court in Jersey where he had never been in connection with this person. Unbelievable but true.
re: need legal advice...went onto driver's property to confrontTexbaz
Aug 17, 2001 5:45 PM
For the folks that don't understand what Ishmael wrote read it again.
The lady purposely, ran Ishmael into the oncomming traffic. that's how I read it. As far as waiting for the cops I would not have, But what I would do ( I Love this ) get even, then get one up on the SCAG!!!!
Sure she may have played the scared frail lady on the phone but she sure wasn't to afraid of Ishmael, if she asked him to wait. I think you can at least beat the fine on your own without a lawyer you might need some coaching but it can't hurt. hang in their then wait for the right time, revenge is SWEET!!!!
purposely?filtersweep
Aug 17, 2001 5:56 PM
I guess I didn't read it that way... many people get a bit hostile and defensive when faced with the possibility that their actions had the potential to cause harm, and this law suit happy land we live in doesn't encourage many admissions of guilt or apologies (not that anyone was harmed here).
did you at least signal????? If not,you're screwed!
Aug 17, 2001 5:49 PM
nm
Free AdviceNewbie Here
Aug 17, 2001 6:04 PM
I am not a criminal lawyer in PA, so none of this should be construed as legal advice--see local counsel for that. I do, however, have experience w/this subject matter that may be useful to you.

First of all, realize that you have been charged w/a summary offense, which is below a misdemeanor on the continuum of criminal conduct. You can probably pay the fine and never have to worry about it coming up ever again. I don't believe that it goes on any sort of record. It just gets filed away in the police station (if you tell someone you were cited, they could go the police station and see a copy of the citation, but they have to know where to go looking for it in order to find it). For certain jobs they may ask you if you have been charged w/any crimes, and you would technically have to disclose this. So if you are particularly concerned about this happening, or just upset about being falsely charged, I would recommend fighting the charge in court.

It does not seem that your conduct fits into Pennsylvania's statutory definition of disorderly conduct. You can find the text of that statute at: http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA5503.html. Remember that like in all criminal cases, the state will have the burden of proving all the elements of the crime. This means that the prosecutor will have to produce witnesses who can testify that you committed acts that qualify as disorderly conduct. It is not sufficient for the police to testify as to why they gave you the citation. It sounds like the woman is the only witness, so if she does not show up, for whatever reason (ie, she can't get off from work or she forgets), you stand a very good chance of winning. If she shows, it's your word against her's and anything can happen. I would say your odds of success are directly tied to whether the woman shows or not.

You would probably want to hire a local lawyer, although many people represent themselves in these types of cases. It all depends on how important this is to you. This would be a very simple case for an attorney that would not require more than 10 mins of preparation the day before the trial and a few hours for the trial itself. Total attny bill should be btwn $150-400.

If it's not too inconvenient I would try to fight it in court. YOu don't have much to lose except your time. The worst that can happen is you are found guilty and have to pay a fine. If you pay the fine now you will be pleading guilty anyway. I would plead not guilty, get a trial date and pray that the prosecutor decides not to prosecute or the woman does not show up. As a word of warning, if you go this route, do not attempt to contact the woman. Any contact w/her can be viewed as an attempt to influence a witness of the state. Needless to say, this is something that is frowned upon by prosecutors and can get you into far more trouble than you are at the moment.

Good luck and keep us posted as to how it turns out.
if she signaled for a right turn......STEELYeyed
Aug 17, 2001 6:32 PM
then she had the right of way,and you should have let her enter the lane first and then taken your turn behind her,if you had any doubt that you could not make your turn safley before she got to the intersection, you should have unclipped and waited,or am I wrong?
Remember you are dealing with a woman!wink
Aug 17, 2001 6:50 PM
Women are kooky to begin with. It is impossible to use male civil obedience standards and rational thought process to any confrontation with a woman. Strongly suggest you pay the fine and get on with your life, the $300 is "tuition" on "Why never confront a Woman!"
Remember you are dealing with a woman!speedmaestro
Aug 17, 2001 7:09 PM
she was probably divorced or never married...with good reason. Stay way from those kind.
Issue a summons to her for careless driving....biknben
Aug 17, 2001 7:08 PM
I said this a week ago or so but here goes again. Police are not the only ones who can issue traffic summonses (i.e. Tickets). Go to the police station of the town where the incident occurred and have a summons written for her actions. Any citizen can do this. The summons will be delivered to her with a court date. Show up in court and you become the prosecutor. Have the car make, model, and license plate along with her description and you're ready to go.

At this point she has the upper hand. Write her a ticket and at least you even the score.

I would consider throwing in some of the juvenile stuff that Grz Mnky mentioned. Just pretend it's Goosy Night. You remember soaping cars and stuff like that. My fav was peanut butter under the door handle.

Good luck
Issue a summons to her for careless driving....Pyg Me
Aug 18, 2001 6:15 PM
"biknben Aug-17-01, 08:08 PM
"Issue a summons to her for careless driving...."
I said this a week ago or so but here goes again. Police are not the only ones who can issue traffic summonses (i.e. Tickets). Go to the police station of the town where the incident occurred and have a summons written for her actions. Any citizen can do this. The summons will be delivered to her with a court date. Show up in court and you become the prosecutor. Have the car make, model, and license plate along with her description and you're ready to go.
At this point she has the upper hand. Write her a ticket and at least you even the score.

I would consider throwing in some of the juvenile stuff that Grz Mnky mentioned. Just pretend it's Goosy Night. You remember soaping cars and stuff like that. My fav was peanut butter under the door handle.

Good luck"

Dooood. You have been watching waaaaaay to much TV. "citizens arrests, while they do exist, are very narrow in nature and cover specific crimes. For instance, is Texas a citizen's arrest is valid for only "a felony or breach of the peace." A traffic offense is neither. Follow this guys goofy advice, and you will be laughed out of the station.

Please explain to me the elements of the offense for "careless driving." Blaaaahaaaaa.
re: need legal advice...went onto driver's property to confrontspeedmaestro
Aug 17, 2001 7:17 PM
Another thing:

If you are a teenager, the woman probably realized you were out of your league. If you were 35-45 (45-75, etc), she would have known she screwed up and apologized, but she probably didn't see you, and didn't appreciate a younger person setting her straight.

I never got a good break as a teenager, and cops can spot you a mile away. You will understand when you get older. Just drop it. Minor.
re: need legal advice...went onto driver's property to confrontspeedmaestro
Aug 17, 2001 7:23 PM
Or she might have had PMS. Normal women would not be offended by this comment. Let it go.
plead guilty and be happy you didn't...JohnG
Aug 17, 2001 7:56 PM
get hurt by some pissed off person for trespassing. Take this as a VERY cheap lesson on your road of life.

ride hard and smart!
JohnG
re: need legal advice...went onto driver's property to confrontKen
Aug 18, 2001 7:58 AM
Ishmael,

Pay the fine and put it behind you. Going onto someone's property to confront the owner is foolish. I've been shot at (warning shots) just because I was tresspassing. Never, ever, go onto someone's property when not invited, implied or otherwise. Chalk this up to experience and be wiser for it.

Ken
thanks for the advice although it still isnt clear to meishmael
Aug 18, 2001 2:26 PM
what are my chances in court...if i wasnt arrested for trespassing but only disorderly (thanks for the facts on disorderly) it seems to me i wasnt disorderly and being on private property isnt related to disorderly conduct anyway so it seems i was given the wrong charge...anyway, i plan to go to court..first im going to find examples of similar cases and if there is a difference in judgment based on sex, if there is im going to the supreme court...ill give a shout out to roadbikereview when i get there...
to get the facts straight, im 27 but still look like a kid..i didnt signal and i know she has right of way but i was already in mid turn before she came into the intersection (i didnt have time to stop)..and she asked me to not leave but to stay for the police, she was not threatened by me or i would think she wouldve asked me to leave...im sure there is a history of this out there for me to find, i just dont know where to look...i dont think suing her for bad driving will work since i didnt signal and she has right of way (im supposed to wait untill it is safe to enter the intersection)..but does it matter if it is decided that i didnt make a legal turn or even that i was trespassing, thats not what im charged with, can it affect the case... that i want to know
Does this clarify your situation?Dario Frigo
Aug 18, 2001 4:04 PM
You went to the store, for something to eat
On the way back, a b*tch you did meet
You say "What a b*tch", boy is she tough
She dialed 911, then you got handcuffed
You were pissed off, then you got cited
Now you must pay, or pay to fight it
Hindsight is useless, I know this my friend
When she told you to stay, you should have left then
If you decide, to go see the judge
Be humble and meek, or he may pack your fudge
Advice for the FutureStewK
Aug 20, 2001 8:20 AM
I never had a bicycling experience like yours, but as a reformed New York City driver with an attitude (towards other drivers not bicyclists) maybe I can help you to avoid these situations in the future. Please indulge me with a quick story...

About 10 years ago on a Saturday morning I was driving on the service road of Grand Central Parkway with almost no one else on the road. All of a sudden this guy in front of me in the left lane (I was in the right lane) cuts me off to make a right turn. I had to slam on my brakes and I was so angry I followed him to his house where I get out and start yelling at him, calling him an a-hole, etc. He starts yelling back at me and his neighbors come out to see what's the matter. Now that all his friends are outside he's feeling pretty secure and he says to me, "I'm not the a-hole, you're the a-hole, why don't you just get back in your car and drive away." I look around and see myself surrounded by him and his friends and I realize I am an a-hole for putting myself in this situation so I look at him and say "You're right, I am an a-hole." and I leave.

The point of the story is that even though I was right, I gained nothing by following him and yelling at him, and almost got myself beat up. When I left, I was not only angry, but also humiliated, and the other driver was no more sensitive to what he had done wrong than when he cut me off.

My point is that, just like me, you made a bonehead move. You were right, but you should have realized there was no way you were going to get any satisfaction. When you yell at a driver like that, you only make them feel better because in their own heads they think you're wrong and you're antagonistic behavior proves them right. And why exactly did you stay there after the woman told you she was going to call the cops? My guess is you probably thought that you would get redemption from the cops because you didn't do anything wrong. As you now know, that was not the smartest thing you could have done.

This is now my philosophy (whether I'm in the car or on the bike): If someone does something stupid, or careless or antagonistic against me, I just get out of danger and let it slide. Most of the people who do these types of things are too egocentric to see any other perspective. So if you confront them you only get yourself angrier and more frustrated. In the past, when I would confront people I could be angry for hours, now I'm angry for about 30 seconds and I get on with my life.

Hope this helps.
Discretion is the better part of valormike mcmahon
Aug 20, 2001 8:37 AM
I still haven't been able to figure out why you stuck around.