|Arrogance of driving culture is fatal to cyclists||Djudd|
Aug 2, 2001 3:43 PM
|I generally adhere to personal a philosophy of peaceful co-existence. However, after reading some of the posts regarding the downright murderous arrogance and insensitivity of car folk I wonder. I as well as many of you have been the victim of some car person's rage or plain old blindness. Doug Sloan relates below the death of a rider struck by a RV rear-view. Recently a friend was injured on his favorite route by "rumble strips" cut into the shoulder. The strips were unannounced causing him serious injury.Imagine the utter arrogance of cutting into the road a device that will make that road completely unusable to riders who pay for the maintenance on that road. If you are driving a car and need rumble strips to keep you awake obviously you should not be driving. I am not an impractical lunatic. I own a car. I also own several bikes that I have a right ride in peace. I am not sure what I am suggesting here or where solutions are likely to come from. I do know that innocent bikers are being killed,injured,legislated (while every Texan is celebrating Lance, check Texas law that will prohibit more than three bikers from riding certain roads...there goes your club ride) and now rumble-stripped off the road. What do we do?
|re: Arrogance of driving culture is fatal to cyclists||LA Biker|
Aug 2, 2001 4:46 PM
|I agree. As coincdence would have it I had my first car/bike collision today. I was happily riding along the PCH here in LA (probably one of the most congested and crappy/dangerous roads to bike on) when a woman making a right hand turn cut me off. Luckily this all happened at slow speeds, but I was not paying attention and ended up running into her trunk, jamming my bars into my lef knee which is in a serious knot.
Granted this wasn't fatal to myself or my bike, but it illustrates the dangers we all face out there.
What are the solutions? Well, unfortunately here in LA I don't thik there are any. This place is so cogested and dense that it has reached the 'point of no return' in regards to bike/car sensitivity. A stat from the LA Times from about two weeks ago - last year 63 cyclists were KILLED in California, 34 of which were in LA county! This didn't even mention the number of injuries incurred from other car/bike collisions.
I have a friend who has done some cycling trips to Europe and he always tells about Italy and how though Italian drivers are insane, tnhey practically come to a dead halt when cyclists are about. They show EVERY courtesy to cyclists. Granted this is second hand info, but if it is even HALF true they are worlds ahead of us.
|re: Arrogance of driving culture is fatal to cyclists||Dave Woof|
Aug 3, 2001 7:09 AM
|I agree - I rode in Italy in 83-84 and the people there are fantastic. They would go out of their way to move into the other lane when they pass, and then wave and shout something nice :-)
Wish people in the U.S. had that attitude.
|Some web-sites to check out||seth1|
Aug 2, 2001 5:17 PM
|www.rut.org (that stands for radical urban theory) |
these sites may ease your rage and possibly focus it to some constructive measures. They also have links to other anti-automobile, pro-community websites.
Hope this helps.
|sure.... ban'em all!||My Heart Bleeds|
Aug 2, 2001 7:36 PM
|Cars are machines, they do not have an emotional capacity which causes them to exhibit rage. Drives are people, who sometimes exhibit rage or other stupid emotions.
People do stupid things like fail to pay attention or misjudge the width of their vehicles or their proximity to other objects including riders. People using other machines make equally erroneous decisions with equally disastrous results.
This dumbass, socialist, it takes a village (to sell cattle futures), "pro-community" web dribble by those who know what we need better than we do ourselves and tell us how much better off we will be if we just give up our cars and went to live in a tee pee is really getting old.
I log around 9k miles between my bikes every year. I've had some very dangerous situations with stupid drivers but somehow it has never led me to shedding all of my earthly possessions and sitting down around an environmentally friendly camp fire (assuming there is such a thing) with a bunch of enviro-nazis who are trying their best to ban MTB riding on state lands in my state.
There is a risk in riding with 4000 lb vehicles around you and when the drivers of these vehicles do things that seriously endanger or harm others (in cars, on bikes, walking, whatever) they should be dealt with, harshly - but banning or "getting rid" of cars via "radical urban theory" is just about absurd.
Yeah, I know technology really blows, just fire up your computer and tell the whole world about it..........
What's needed is not senseless enviro-nazi dribble that in LA talks about getting rid of SUV's while all over the US it argues for the banning MTB's on public lands (especially BLM) because of our heavy "impact" on mother nature, but a constructive approach to inform and educate the driving community that bikers have as much on a right to the road as drivers do and that if drivers are not willing grant this to riders there will be severe penalties.
Riders also need to be educated - I would bet that a large number of rider "killed" by "cars" actually killed THEMSELVES by running a red light, riding on the wrong side of the road, not following road signs, riding on equipment that failed due to neglect, riding without protective gear, etc.
Go ahead and hug a tree, I'll go and hug my bikes and my 300+ hp, gas guzzling, M3............
|Mr. "My Heart Bleeds", what the heck is an "enviro-nazi"?||Djudd|
Aug 2, 2001 8:22 PM
|What the heck is that and what does that have to do with mutual respect on the roads we all pay for through our tax dollars? I don't get answering a reasoned argument with a Rush Limbaugh-tinged polemic. Enviro-nazi? Socialist pro-community dribble? These terms honestly do not any make sense what so ever.
I own a car and I think most riders who post here probably own a car. Most would agree that banning cars would be foolishness. However, owning a car does not make one own the road on which that car travels. That road must be shared with others. This is my premise. Riding a bike around cars and other motor vehicles is not a death sentence.
|Mr. "My Heart Bleeds", what the heck is an "enviro-nazi"?||My Heart Bleeds|
Aug 2, 2001 8:36 PM
|No one is agrueing with your comments...
Mine were ment for the hug a tree idiot above my post (which is why I replied to it and not directly to us)...
So far as pegging me as Limbaugh(sp?)-tinged, sorry, hardly me, no more than then the Nader-tinged garbage, that is unsafe at any speed on or on any forum..
Riding a bike around cars and other motor vehicles should not be a death sentence - it should not lead people to cars-suck.org (or whatever) and a change in their view of political economies either. That was the point of my polemic......
Oh, enviro-nazi's are the a$$holes that were sitting around beating their drums for mother earth at a meeting I recently attended regarding banning MTB's on state lands..... A position that the state seems to find acceptable....
|re: Arrogance of driving culture is fatal to cyclists||Woof the dog|
Aug 2, 2001 5:36 PM
|I cheer on when I hear prices on gas increase!!! Against Bush's attempts to drill oil due to the above reason as well, although I am not into politics at all. Can't wait when this car culture will come to a standstill, hee hee hee. No fat b!tches in SUVs...instead you'd see nice girls on bikes wink wink. Too bad I am a realist and realize that this is not going to happen in my lifetime. I'd love to have hope, too bad it doesn't exist in poor road biker's heart of mine. It takes more than just a bunch of people like us to change things in this country. People like their motor.
Woof the dog.
|Woof, thats music to my ears!||Largo|
Aug 2, 2001 6:13 PM
|Ah, another zealot like me!
Indeed, bring on $3 a litre fuel prices! (canadian) When our collective North American culture does not outlaw 300hp+ gas guzzling beasts like the Chevy Tahoe/Suburban and their ilk, yet proposes drilling in one of a kind sensitive areas like ANWR, something is all f***** up!
Here in Canadas energy capitol of Alberta, the collective road attitude seems to be "if ya don't burn fossil fuels, f*** off"
I hope i live to see the day when the powers-that-be realise how wrong they have been (green house gas emissions etc.) and begin to rectify the problem.
|My friend...I fear that day will never come||LA Biker|
Aug 2, 2001 6:29 PM
|As long as multi-national corportations ar at the helm, and the gas guzzlin' mentality preserveres.
We can always hope.
|great place for LA biker, Largo and Woof to go...called CHINA!||keith m.|
Aug 3, 2001 5:17 AM
|The land where bikes rule and cars drool and enviro nazis like you are welcome there I'm sure. This is a great country we live in (USA), even with all it's faults. I'll stay here and have the freedom to drive my car (and buy fairly cheap fuel)or ride my bike! God Bless America!|
|At what price cheap fuel for your car?||Largo|
Aug 3, 2001 5:43 AM
|Enviro nazis? Its time to wake up, Keith, its later than you think!
Ever been to Europe? Gas is really pricey over there, so people don't waste it!
And why would enviro nazis like us go to a country like China which has a horrible environmental record. Get your facts straight.
North America is still a great place to live, but other parts of the world pay the price of our affluence. Global warming will affect poorer nations before it hits us. Don't be so self centered!
|global warming is a myth!||keith m.|
Aug 3, 2001 6:11 AM
|and europe pays higher prices for fuel because of socialist/enviro maniac policies like HIGH TAXES and not wanting to drill for their own oil. As for global warming, there are many, many great scientist that dissagree with the theory. I don't want to be like europe. It is not because of us that they pay higher prices for fuel.You get your facts straight. Go to China and you can ride your bike every day and you won't have to worry about cars. Go to europe and pay HIGH fuel prices, HIGH taxes, and drive around in a coffee can sized car. Or stay here in America and enjoy the blessings of freedom. Other countries need to change their policies to be like us, not the other way around. This is socialist thinking.|
|I guess you have never seen or heard of Ice Core Samples...||Mabero|
Aug 3, 2001 6:53 AM
|Before I got into this laser project last year I was working with a couple of applied mathematicians on the data extracted from GISP2 which was the ice core brought back from Greenland...to say that we don't have an impact is absurd! I mean geez you in the data you have traces of quite a few elements from potassiam deposits to sulfates in the air therefore you can trace a lot of things and see a lot of things. Well first of all you can see both World Wars and how that has effected our environment globally, you can see the cfc's and the lack of ozone, etc, etc...
What is intesesting is the reason why everyone is in hoopla and disagreement over global warming. That reason is because if you look at a 100,000 year time scale we are actually just starting to come out of an ice age and are in a relatively cool "time period". Therefore one a large scale the effect of us can really be debated. Are we just in nature's course or is it us? That is a good question...small scale it is simple but large scale uggghh...but one thing is for sure : when we do come out of the perceived "ice age" period it won't really matter how we effect this planet -> we'll be all dead.
Thanks...just bike and do speed up the greenhouse effect.
|Don't worry, be happy! (rant)||Largo|
Aug 3, 2001 11:03 AM
|Ah, i wish i could burry my head in the sand and ignore what is going on globally.
Man, if other countries changed there policies to be like "us" (who is "us"? I am referring to North America) then we would be in even more trouble than we already are.
I never said that Europe pays higher prices because of us. Your right, they do pay lots of taxes, and i wish we had more taxes heaped on petrol prices. Why should someone who drives a fuel efficient car pay the same fuel price as someone in a Tahoe?
If an enviro tax on fuel went to funding environmental projects such as alternative energy programs and the like, that would be greta.
Here is a question, is the US energy self sufficient? No.
Could it be? Probably, but only with big changes. Bush seems to place his hopes on energy supplies on northern Alaska (debatable) and Canada. Of course there is the Middle East. What happens when someone threatens that energy supply?
North Americans have the biggest "foortprint" in respect to resource consumption and pollution in the world.
Shouldn't we strive to change this?
And whats the matter with socialism? There are a lot of good points to it, like free health care and education.
Here in Canada i gladly pay higher taxes to ensure medicare exists (although it needs an overhaul)
Have a nice day.
|and if only a single thing in your statement made sense...||Mike K|
Aug 3, 2001 12:29 PM
|You say: Man, if other countries changed there policies to be like "us" (who is "us"? I am referring to North America) then we would be in even more trouble than we already are.
That's an interesting point, must be why people are fleeing North America (the US in particular) like rats from a sinking ship to take up residence in "progressive" nations like Cuba, North Korea and China. And probably also why these centrally run, socialist, economies also have the best track record on environmental issues and the least number of cars: China is simply an environmentalist dream.
You say: Your right, they do pay lots of taxes, and i wish we had more taxes heaped on petrol prices. Why should someone who drives a fuel efficient car pay the same fuel price as someone in a Tahoe?
If you want to pay additional taxes you are more than welcome to send a check for whatever amount your altruistic heart desires to either the American IRS or whatever agency serves the same purpose in the 51st state: please stay the f@ck out of my wallet while you are practicing said altruism.
And, if a person drives a smaller, and more efficient car then he indeed pays less taxes than someone in a Tahoe, etc. Is there something that is difficult to add up in that equation?
You say: Here is a question, is the US energy self sufficient? No.
No nation is completely self sufficient, so what? - Look at Canada for example - we (US) sneeze you get terminal cancer... If we have to exploit the Middle East or Canada to fill our needs, why not? If Canada does not like it then, well, they will, oh, just have to, well, oh I don't know or care...
You say: And what's the matter with socialism? There are a lot of good points to it, like free health care and education. Here in Canada i gladly pay higher taxes to ensure medicare exists (although it needs an overhaul)
That seems to be the problem with socialism it always needs a overhaul and that people die to prove it.... Be it the Canadian health "care" system that sends people south of the border because actuary tables or levels of care do not support the treatment of their disease, too bad, so sad go away and die, your treatment is not financially viable, or other more notorious ideals like five year plans, or great leaps forward, etc. All things done for the betterment of "society" - I guess socialism works so well that even liberal Europeans are looking for a new bullshit euphemism "a third way." Even they still have not figured out how to get the right, make that the correct, people such as yourself to be in charge.
|Ah, it does my heart good...||SlappyD|
Aug 3, 2001 2:03 PM
|Such well-informed and intelligent rhetoric. Squishy liberals and hard-as-nails conservatives getting together for healthy debate beneath the umbrella of cycling commentary. Keep it coming.
(And for anybody who's interested in whether they're getting all the straight dope on global warming, the universe and everything, check out Julian Simon's "Hoodwinking The Nation." A very quick and highly unnerving read about the state of such things.)
|there are two sides to that coin...||Beth|
Aug 2, 2001 6:09 PM
|I agree wholeheartedly about the arrogance and ignorance of many motorists, as a cyclist (and motorcyclist) I have seen a great deal of this myself. There are some real hostile a-h*les out there.
However...there are a lot of ignorant cyclists, too, and I guarantee you, a few of them contribute to their own demise.
A man in my local area decided to ride his bike drunk- after all, it's not a car, right? He swerved in front of a truck, which was unable to avoid him. He was killed.
Every day, I see people riding the wrong way, riding without helmets, blowing stop signs and red lights at heavily travelled intersections (yikes!), and generally treating cycling as another mindless amusement.
The marketing and sale of bikes at places like Squall-Mart do not help matters and I think contribute to the notion that bikes are toys.
|there are two sides to that coin...||LC|
Aug 2, 2001 6:20 PM
|The good thing is that dumb ass bike riders don't last long and usually don't take anyone with them.|
|Positive aspects to dumb bike riders||TypeOne|
Aug 2, 2001 7:20 PM
|I agree, there are some idiots out there on bikes. I used to think these folks were harming cycling's good name, increasing driver anger and thereby putting me at risk. But now I think maybe idiots who hop the curb into traffic, blowing the light, veering onto the wrongway road, etc. can only help someone like me who rides and shares the road. Maybe drivers will be more cautious around me, because they never know what a person on a bike may do!
So thank you to Mr. Nohelmet for keeping drivers on their toes for me.
|There is no such Texas law.||E3|
Aug 3, 2001 5:54 AM
|That was part of a weak bill that was killed in the last session. That same session actually passed a pro-cycling bill, but I can't remember what it was called or the specifics of it (somebody help me).
Texas remains a great place in which to ride your bike, especially the rural areas.