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Greg Lemond quote on Lance, doping(23 posts)
|Greg Lemond quote on Lance, doping||Gadfly|
Jul 31, 2001 1:05 PM
|Anybody else see the following quote in the MSNBC sports section? It's from Greg Lemond regarding LA's association wth Michele Ferrari, a doctor linked with doping scandals:
"When Lance won the prologue to the 1999 Tour I was close to tears, but when I heard he was working with Michele Ferrari I was devastated," LeMond told the Guardian, a London newspaper.
"In the light of Lance's relationship with Ferrari, I just don't want to comment on this year's Tour," LeMond was quoted as saying. "This is not sour grapes. I'm just disappointed in Lance."
LeMond couldn't be reached for comment, but his agent, Mary Haigh, confirmed the quotes were accurate.
|re: Greg Lemond quote on Lance, doping||Lone Gunman|
Jul 31, 2001 1:21 PM
|I did read that in todays news and has me thinking what does Lemond know that he is not saying, or what does he think he knows that he is not saying. Is there some top secret potion that Ferrari has that is only available to Lance that Lemond knows about and/or is it undetectable by todays drug testing standards? Ferrari's reputation precedes him as a doper (convicted or not) makes you wonder what the whole story is.|
|LA and MF||ak|
Jul 31, 2001 1:27 PM
|what exactly is LA's association with Michelle Ferrari?
can it be a coincidence?
|LA and MF||jschrotz|
Jul 31, 2001 4:00 PM
|I don't know what the nature of their relationship is exactly. From what I've heard, Ferrari was brought in to advise Armstrong on his preparation for an attempt on the hour record later this year. I have to wonder why it's really necessary though. Armstrong has had unrivaled success at the hands of his longtime coach Chris Carmichael. What is Ferrari going to bring to the table that is worth being associated with a guy of now questionable reputation? I think LeMond's comments should be considered pretty carefully, and I hope he chose them carefully before making them. He's been around blocks that none of us can lay any claim to, and certainly knows Ferrari and/or his reputation better than anyone here. I've never heard of LeMond having anything other than praise for Armstrong, especially since his comeback from cancer. Perhaps it's not that LeMond fears Armstrong to be guilty of doping, but that he would choose an association with him at all in the first place, and put his image/reputation at risk. I guess only LeMond himself could answer that though.|
|Makes me want to not buy a Lemond. nm||jbrown2036|
Jul 31, 2001 1:24 PM
|If you want to go fast...get a Ferrari?||Car Magnet|
Jul 31, 2001 4:34 PM
|I really doubt Lance is juicing. I mean the guy has passed more drug tests than the local N.A. has given. As for Lemond, he must have a short memory. Wasn't he almost killed in a hunting accident, then came back to win the TDF 2 more times? You could say that was suspicious but we didn't. Did anybody question Lemond's acquantinces? NO!! Instead we embraced him as a courageous fellow who overcame immeasurable odds to accomplish the seemingly impossible. Surely we can do the same for Lance without question. Maybe Greg should worry more about how to get his "team" and bikes into the TDF instead of making judgments about Lance. I admire Lance's willingness to stand by his "friend" during this time. It would be so easy to walkout on Ferrari right now, but Lance is showing how strong his character really is by standing his ground and refusing to call Ferrari guilty prior to a trial and judgement.|
|Lance and Ferrari||Jon Billheimer|
Jul 31, 2001 5:33 PM
|For a little more background on this check out the Tech Talk article at the Velo News website. Lance has been using high altitude simulation chambers and tents for some time now. Ferrari, among other things, is an expert on the subject and has been apparently consulted not only by Lance but other riders and teams. The information that Ferrari has given to Lance has been integrated by Chris Carmichael into Lance's training program this year. As usual, everyone seems eager to jump to conclusions and assume guilt by association. I for one, for reasons which I won't elaborate on here,believe Lance when he says he's clean. If and when FACTS are produce that indicate otherwise, then I'll change my opinion.|
|A friend of mine brought up a great point about doping...||Jim Burton|
Jul 31, 2001 6:38 PM
|The argument goes:
Why would a cancer survivor dare do anything that could possibly be unhealthy in the least? I would imagine that he is so attuned to possible carcinogens that he wouldn't do anything (like blood doping) to jeopardize his future survival. Hell, he probably doesn't sit too close to the TV!
|A friend of mine brought up a great point about doping...||wscott|
Aug 1, 2001 4:28 AM
|Yeah, that point been made a hundred times, problem is, it's even more circumstantial/speculative than anything else that's been said regarding this issue. How do you know his attitude isn't "I beat cancer nothing can harm me"? How do you know he isn't a consummate lier? I tend to give these guys the benefit of the doubt when they say they're clean, but come on, there is an immense amount of circumstantial evidence and even direct evidence that a good percentage of pro cyclist did or do dope, so they can't all be telling the truth. And whenever someone on the inside comes out (such as former riders, soigneurs, doctors, etc.) and tells all everyone just calls that person a lier and says they have sour grapes, blah, blah, blah. I just take the agnositic approach and say "I don't know", maybe Armstrong is a doper maybe not, I figure if he is, he's only doing what everyone else is, so no foul, if not well he's accomplishments are even more outstanding given the liklihood that a number of his competitors are using something. Either way his accomplishments are outstanding and admirable, anybody who has ever raced a bike knows the suffering that he and all the rest have to go through to get results. To bring up another Lemond quote regarding cycling, "it never gets easier, you just go faster", the suffering to achieve success is why I find this sport so fascinating, whether the riders are doped or not.|
|If you want to go fast...get a Ferrari?||bartali|
Aug 1, 2001 4:06 AM
|You gotta be kidding me. They all juice, it's just that those who don't get caught are usually juicing with stuff that is not on the banned list of substances because there isn't a test that is available yet to detect what they are taking.
Please guys. To think that Lance Armstrong doesn't use any performance enhancers is naive.
Is Lance Armstrong clean? Technically, yes. Because he has tested negative for the doping agents on the banned list. It doesn't mean he isn't taking other performance enhancers. Read Voet's book.
But this, of course, does not lessen his accomplishments in my eyes. It's the nature of the sport.
His relationship with Michele Ferrari is very shady indeed.
|Passing Drug Tests?||wscott|
Aug 1, 2001 4:14 AM
|That's pretty much meaningless, hardly any of those guys from Festina ever failed a drug test (if any did). Read Willy Voet's book detailing all the drugs those guys were taking and how the soigneurs and doctors know what drugs to give and when to avoid detection. Of course this becomes even more irrelevant if your taking some new drug that's not even being tested for, and EPO is still pretty much undetectable. ON the other hand, Ferrari probably knows a lot more about exercise physiology and professional cycling than how to properly dope an athlete with EPO, etc., so I don't understand why everyone keeps making such a big deal about this.|
|Passing Drug Tests?||uciicu|
Aug 1, 2001 8:21 AM
|you seem to forget that lance and the USPS team underwent more rigorous blood testing recently following the garbage dumping affair. the tests have improved since 98, and thus have rendered the posties clean.|
|Passing Drug Tests?||bartali|
Aug 1, 2001 8:45 AM
|Sure they're clean... of taking anything that is on the banned substance list.
What makes you think they are not taking other performance enhancers that are not on the banned list? There is stuff out there that can not be tested for and there is stuff that a test has not yet been developed.
Remember Dario Frigo from the Giro? He got caught with doping agents that they can not test for. Those drugs weren't even on the banned list which means they do not, nor can not, test for them. Dario Frigo wore the pink jersey for 10 days in this year's Giro if I am not mistaken. As overall leader he had to submit to a drug test every day. He came up negative EVERY time.
Do you actually believe that it is not possible that other cyclists do not use these drugs?
|Passing Drug Tests?||wscott|
Aug 1, 2001 8:52 AM
|Didn't forget that at all. 1) Any drug not being tested for, such as RSR-13(?) that Frigo had at the Giro, actovegin, HGH, etc can not possibly be detected, yet is banned and therefore illegal but short of being physically caught with it you're home free. 2) Many drugs including EPO are only in the body for a short period of time and only detectable for that period. I believe EPO can only be detected via the Urine analysis for 3 days post injection, yet the benefits aren't realized until several weeks down the road. Consequently, they can be taken prior to competitions and testing with little chance of getting caught (although I think they are now doing out of competition tests). Same goes for water-based anabolic steroids, not sure about corticosteroids. No doubt the fact that the USPS samples from last years tour didn't turn up EPO or abnormal blood profiles (not sure what they looked at, was it Urine or blood?) lends credance to the argument that postal didn't dope with EPO. But you can't draw any conclusions beyond that unless you just want to go on faith. Only the person being doped and the guy supplying/applying it really know, and if the latter talks the former will just claim he is a lier. Almost short of admission you never know for certain if someone is doped or not, tests aren't perfect. Even Bo Hamburger's, who had the dubious distinction of being the first to fail the new EPO test, "B" sample wasn't positive and I believe now has a lawsuit in progress against the UCI. Afterall, don't forget the EPO test has yet to be verified and subjected to peer review in a scientific journal, if the same sample can be both positive and negative that doesn't bode too well for the reliability of the test. Remember Virenque never failed a drug test, so by your reasoning the tests have rendered him clean, and absent his admission, we would only have been fair to conclude that he was clean. All this is just meant to make you think about taking a more balanced stance. I don't think there is anymore reason to conclude that the posties are absolutely clean then there is to conclude they are absolutely doped, evidence exists for both sides, and I doubt any of us here are really in a position to say definitively one way or the other.|
|Passing Drug Tests?||Lazy|
Aug 2, 2001 8:53 AM
|Passing a drug test is not mutually exclusive of using drugs.
I agree with an above poster that the agnostic approach is wisest.
Here's the thing though (for me); in an individual sport such as cycling, at such an elite level, it is absolutely amazing to me that one guy can dominate a TdF field in as many ways as Lance did this year. I know it's a team sport, but it was LA who defeated JU, not Postal who defeated Telekom. I have a hard time believing that LA prepared THAT much better then all 188 other starters in the field. I'm sure genetics, strategy, teammates, etc... all played a part in it, but this race was not even close to being close. Ullrich never stood a chance.
Simply amazing to me that no one thought enough about the worlds biggest race, and the two time defending champ, to prepare themselves to win or even to be competitive. Does everyone else lack the discipline? How come nobody has looked at LA's innovative training regimen and copied it?
I'm not really a cynic, but this is all very interesting food for thought. To me at least.
|Hour record excuse - a red herring ?||PingPong|
Aug 1, 2001 5:23 AM
|Am I right in thinking that the attempt on the hour record, that Lance announced to explain his association with Ferrari, has now been quietly dropped/ indefinitely postponed ?|
|Do you think Olano is in on it too?||mr_spin|
Aug 1, 2001 8:40 AM
|Olano cancelled his try earlier this year. Breaking the hour record is incredibly hard to do, so if things aren't perfectly right, these guys aren't going to even try. Does that make them wimps or crybabies? Not quite. But the fact is, at this level, trying and failing does have a stigma attached.
More likely, they know the details about Chris Boardman's successful attempt to break the Merckx record last year. He said it was an incredible level of suffering, and that he was absolutely dying at the end. Net gain? About 10 meters, I think.
Maybe the edge has been reached. Everyone thinks they can go faster, but there are limits imposed by physics, aerodynamics and physiology. If 30 years later, the record has only been extended by 10 meters, then you better make sure everything is absolutely perfect before you try to stretch it another inch. Because it is more likely you will fail than succeed.
|You missed the point (nm).||PingPong|
Aug 2, 2001 3:00 AM
|re: Greg Lemond quote on Lance, doping||ridindc|
Aug 1, 2001 5:27 AM
|Lemond=jealous that America loves Lance more
Ferrari=shady past, but an expert in cycling physiology
Those of you are are quoting Voet's book: Voet is trying to make a buck with a sensationalist book, creating as much confusion as many as possible. Criminals on the witness stand are not good witnesses.
Doping still happening: obviously, a la Giro, but you all seem to have lost faith in our incredible potential to develop the human body without illegal performance enhancers.
|Your not an ex-rider are you?||wscott|
Aug 1, 2001 6:26 AM
|Like I said in the post above, anytime someone spills the beans, everybody who wants to keep everything hush-hush or prefers to keep their head in the sand claims they are liers, etc. Voet isn't the only one, there's Kimmage, Mentheour, Bassons, etc. are they all just trying to make a buck, even the one's like Bassons and Moser's nephew who aren't selling anything? And what about all the admissions of the Festina riders, notice none of them are sueing Voet for libel. Those guys were doped to the max and still couldn't win the tour, although Virenque did get 3rd and Brochard won the world championships. If you think these guys are only at the top because of drugs, I think your way off base, these are the best of the best regardless of doping or not. Maybe drugs can turn a very good rider (Pantani, Berzin, Virenque, Chiotti) into a tour champion or world champion but they would still be phenomenal riders regardless and possibly still achieve greatness without the drugs. Any of the guys at the top are genetic freaks, who also have had the oppurtunity and drive to develop that potential, as long as the playing field is level (either doped or not) the same riders would be the best.
E. Merckx "All the drugs in the world won't turn a mule into a race horse".
|re: Greg Lemond quote on Lance, doping||Roy Zipris|
Aug 1, 2001 4:03 PM
|1. I don't believe in guilt by association (LA is friends with a known doper, so he must be dirty).
2. I don't belive in guilt by group (All pros do it, so LA must be dirty, too).
2. I don't believe in guilt based on conjecture or mere suspicion (LA could be beating the tests this way or that way, or whatever).
Why smear the guy without specific facts that incriminate him? Doesn't seem right to me.
|re: Greg Lemond quote on Lance... not sour grapes huh?||Guillermo|
Aug 2, 2001 10:25 AM
|Any time anyone tells you it's not sour grapes you can be certain it is. Sports Illustrated dubbed LeMond the World Class Whiner and I see he's still at it. Yes it's the same Lemond, that attacked his own teammate(Jock Boyer) in the 1982 Worlds. With Boyer leading in the final mile, Lemond chased down Boyer, Saronni passed them both to win with Lemond finishing 2nd and Boyer devastated, coming in 10th.Lemond's explanation was as follows, "We are not on the same team(trade) and I did not want to see him (Boyer) World Champion." Boyer's post race comments were, "I wouldn't have chased down another American." It's the same Lemond bellyaching about promises made to him. Did he think Hinault won so many Tours by being mildly aggressive. Quote Jan Raas, former pro rider and Patron of the pro peloton in the late 70's but then a director sportif."..the problem with Greg is that when Hinault started messing, instead of attacking he complains." What about his post race congratulations to Indurain after Big Migs 1st Tour win, "He'll find it harder winning the second one." Not sour grapes, Hah!|
|Holy Mindreading Batman!||JohnnyA|
Aug 2, 2001 1:17 PM
|I think some of us are reading too much into those comments. Greg Lemond is not accusing Lance of doping. He said he was devastated by Lance's association with Ferrari. That may be melodramatic, but Lemond is entitled to his opinion - and that statement is a long ways from crying doping!|| |