|Just got the July issue of Cycle Sport||Slothlike|
Jul 13, 2001 10:01 AM
|(TDF guide) and they have a review that spans 7 pages of the Litespeed Vortex. I was considering this as my next bike as I never read a bad professional review of this bike or most other Litespeed for that matter. Cycle Sport is the premier bicycle magazine in europe and I value their opinion more than Bicycling magazine. They gave it an unbelievable review stating it "offers a ride of a lifetime and is in a class wholly its own". They (Cycle Sport)also named Litespeed as one of the best bicycle frame makers a couple of years ago along with Colnago, Derosa and the other greats. My question is that why is it that there seems to be so much negative sentiment on this and other sites with Litespeed? None of this seems justified as all their bikes get excellent professional reviews. People seem to be so passionate here about expressing negative thoughts about Litespeed but never have any proof of quality issues. I know many people have a love affair with classic italian frames and the romanticized image of riding such a beautiful piece of art in many cases. Can someone explain to me why Litespeed evokes this reaction?? Not involvoing the image it conjurs up (yuppie, poseur etc.) but rather some constructive and concrete proof that these frames are not of good quality because I have yet to find an unbiased review that has said Litespeed is a poor bike. The overpriced argument shouldn't even be brought up as there are many aluminum and steel frames out there that are far more less durable yet cost almost the same and more. This article I refer too makes mention of the fact that ther are lighter bikes and mention Bianchi EV2 but state that the Vortex would be able to be ridden season after season where the Bianchi wouln't. So from a value perspective, a Litespeed seems like a better buy as I have been through several steel and aluminum bikes myself. This will be my next bike unless I can find some legitimate reason to look elsewhere.
Thanks in advance
|re: Just got the July issue of Cycle Sport||davtnyc|
Jul 13, 2001 10:56 AM
|if you're going to spend 3k on a frame why not get one custom made from serrotta seven or merlin|
|Never ever ever ever seen a Seven being raced.||J.S.|
Jul 13, 2001 12:06 PM
|I have seen Serotta's, Colnago C40's, just about every type of high end frameset being raced but never a Seven. I not sure what that means but......The funny thing is most race bikes are usually just nice Aluminum bikes with the odd steel frame. Most of the guys I race with think a fast set of wheels are more important than frame material. Besides, nobody is looking at your bike when you cross the line for the "V". Also, see alot of Litespeeds being raced(actually ridden to their potential).|
|re: Just got the July issue of Cycle Sport||ET|
Jul 13, 2001 11:07 AM
|You say, "The overpriced argument shouldn't even be brought up as there are many aluminum and steel frames out there that are far more less durable yet cost almost the same and more." Please list some of them.|
|Well, for example, The pinarello prince||Slothlike|
Jul 13, 2001 11:46 AM
|which is a beautiful bike is a $2300 frame and when built up with Campy Record will come in well over $4000. Now assuming one is a good consumer, Litespeed can always be found on sale which is not the same for Pinarello and Derosa and Merck which are more obscure frames. I can easily buy a Vortex with Dura Ace for around the same price and have a frame that will last indefinitely. Also, aluminum is so cheap a material as is steel as compared to titanium, especially the 6/4 and that coupled with the more expensive process of working with titanium, I see these other great bikes, like Pinarellos and Colnagos for that matter as being more overpriced. Granted, Litespeed doesn't have the history and romanticized air of a classic italian frame, but they apparently are good enough for some professionals to have paid out of pocket to ride them when they could have ridden their team issued bikes. The new Trek 5900 is a $4700 bike according to Bicycling magazine. Nice bike but like other Carbon bike, inlcuding the C40, one crash could be the end of it. I have heard time and again people crashing titanium without catastrophic results (although there are some exceptions). So from a value perspective when you weigh in with longevity of material and durability, the Litespeeds seem to be a better value. If you are rich enough to replace a $3000-5000 bike every few years then this is not an issue but the high end steel and aluminum bikes seem awfully close in price to the Litespeeds to me. Plus you don't even need to go that high end on the Litespeed line to get a lifetime bike. I have heard excellent things about the Tuscany and the Classic as well which would save a few bucks. As for custom made frames, Litespeed offers any bike custom if you didn't know that. The reason Serotta ti is even more expensive than your comparable Litespeed is because they have many hands apparently in the production process from what I have read. Seven's price is also higher for comparable 3/2.5 frames as well and the "customization" is built into the price with no year end sales ever. I would love to have both these bikes as I think they are beausiful especially the Seven, but Litespeed offers a better value. Another question I have is why is Litespeed perceived as gimmicky when Seven Odanotta (spelling?) with the carbon seat stay not seen as a gimmick?? Does a ti frame need to be made even more comfortable and look at the price of that bike??? However, the bashing that goes on of Litespeed here seems to be less of a quality or ride issue, but rather an "image" issue" which I think is unfair. There may be some impressionable people who would read people's uninformed insults and avoid a bike that may have been a good match for them. Too each his own though. I am not saying Litepseeds are the greatest bike, rather, I am just questioning the unwarranted attacks on them simply due to what others see as an "image" matter rather than an inherent flaw in the frame build or design. Just my opinion and I tried hard not to offend anyone like seems to be common on this board.
|Hey Lazy... Litespeed thread||nm|
Jul 13, 2001 11:09 AM
|re: Just got the July issue of Cycle Sport||spindry|
Jul 13, 2001 11:28 AM
|I have a Palmares and the only complaint I have is have is that my classic Italian frames(Botechia, Giordana and a Bianchi) are collecting dust in the garage since after riding my Litespeed I just can't ride them anymore (well except for short rides). If you get a Vortex you won't be dissapointed.|
Jul 13, 2001 12:04 PM
|Try this. Anytime you see anyone riding a Litespeed -club ride or whatever- ask them what they think of it. By doing this, you will get far more objective answers about Litespeed than you will from this board. I have never heard a negative word about a Litespeed bike from a Litespeed rider firsthand.
I think the negative attitude on this board comes from Litespeed being the biggest Ti frame builder. Many people who spend the money for a Ti bike seem to want to have a small shop "boutique" Ti bike -for the conisseur. Do you want Ben and Jerry building your Ti bike? Litespeed began as a machine shop fabricating parts for the aerospace industry, then moved on to bike frames. Those are the guys I want putting my frame together. It would be hard to argue that any Ti frame builder is more performance oriented than Litespeed. It's about the ride. My favorite part of the CycleSport review of the Vortex was the stated downside of the Vortex -"It's not mine."
For the record, I own three Litespeeds -an Ultimate, an Appalachian, and a Toccoa. I race them all, and NEVER has anyone of them left me wanting more.
Jul 13, 2001 4:43 PM
|The only thing I think I would want more out of a Litespeed is a paint job. Maybe I am missing something, but it doesn't look like it's finished. This is not a slam on Litespeed at all because I would bet the farm in a blind ride test (Ti with no badges, like geometry) few if any persons would be able to identify the manufacturer of the bike they are riding. I wouldn't buy a US 2 tone car a few years ago because it didn't look like it was finished (remember, the grey bumper and rocker panel areas) Drove me nuts!!|
|re: Just got the July issue of Cycle Sport||jakerider|
Jul 13, 2001 12:41 PM
I just ordered a palmares today, call steve dodds at the bicycle doctor, www.bicycledoctor.net He gave me a great deal with frame, highly discounted fork, and free ti seatpost. I bought a 2001 palmares frame and fork from him for less than my local ls dealer wanted for a tuscany frame and fork. Now I gotta break it to the wife.
Jul 13, 2001 7:59 PM
|thanks for the lead. I emailed him for a price quote on the Vortex and Palmares. His quote on the Vortex was good but not near the deal you seemingly got. Did you get the Palmares for less than $2000 because that is what a tuscany should be at the LBS??? The Vortex quote was for almost $3000 with fork and seatpost. I hate to ask what you paid but can you at least clarify.
Jul 14, 2001 8:24 AM
|sloth, let me clarify |
his total price for palmares frame, upgraded fork to reynolds ouzo pro, free ti seatpost, and profile stem was better than my lbs's price for equal fork, stem, ti seatpost, and tuscany frame. Keeping in mind that my lbs quotes ls at msrp with 0 discount. I have bought $5,000 plus worth of bikes and equipment from them over the last 3 years and they still don't get it. Of course that is typical from these guys and I have just had enough. I suppose I will keep buying my tubes from them but thats about it. Sorry for the confusion.
I did see a 2000 palmares frame listed at La Bicicletta for 2k but it had a 1" head tube.
Jul 13, 2001 2:11 PM
|There is a fair amount of this going on here. People are free to slam and can't be held accountable for their words. Not saying this is necessarily bad but you have to take everything said on this board with a "very" large grain of salt.
That said the litespeed is an excellent bike but then again so are several other high end frames mass produced and custom. It's simply a matter of taste and wallet size. I own an EV2 and I do not expect it to last forever. It's light and responsive I plan to race the hell out of it and replace it with the next latest greatest. For the price of the Litespeed I could buy two EV2's and still have change left over.
In the end buy whats right for you. If having a bike that will last forever is important to you a Litespeed would probably fit the bill.
|Thank you Sloth for finally bringing||Lazyrider|
Jul 13, 2001 2:22 PM
|some logical discussion to this board about the reaction to the word
"LITESPEED". I tried in the past and quickly got slammed and then I reacted to negative posts with my own negative response.
What for?? This is finally an honest and fair discussion about an excellent biycle company that obviously has the respect of the european cycling community. TO NM, to think of me enough to post once you saw this thread means I am on your mind. That is a scary thought. Don't you have other people to worry about? To all those Litespeed riders, We know what we own and I have learned my lesson here. But it is nice to have a fair dialogue for once. My mere presence on this thread may now evoke negative reactions so I apologize in advance Sloth if it turns ugly. But tha would be just too predictable.
|Just curious||mike mcmahon|
Jul 13, 2001 2:34 PM
|I have no strong feelings one way or the other on Litespeed bikes. However, I wonder why you feel the need to defend the honor of your bike so vehemently against attacks on this board. Does it really matter what other posters think about your bike? I mean, I don't give a rat's ass if anyone else on this board likes my bike. All I care about is the fact that it makes me happy.|
Jul 13, 2001 2:56 PM
|Mike, I agree with you that it shouldn't matter what other people say about my bike, but it is not a defense of my bike that I feel I am doing. Instead, it invariably turns into Litespeed bashing when people bring up the subject. If others don't like the bike, keep your opinions to yourself. If it is constructive then by all means I want to hear it, but it never is. It is usually some problem they have with the "image" blah blah that Litespeed has. Tell me the BB broke, tell me that there was a finish problem or a misaligned frame. Don't tell me that I am a yuppie or a poseur because I ride a Litespeed. Yuppie? I don't even have a job right now. That is what burns my A$$ about the responses. I love my Litespeed and will buy another in the next couple of years. Probably a Vortex or Palmares or whatever the equivalent at the time happes to be. And I do find it incredibly annoying that people starting spreading the BS about Merlin when they first heard Litespeed took them over. Like quality would be diminished and they wouldn't be the same. What kind of crap is that? What is that based on?? Nice to see yet another professional review praise a great bicycle frame.
Jul 14, 2001 5:46 AM
|Ok, constructive critiques:
1. Incredibly inconsistant finish - filing, cosmetic, de-burr, rough edges, etc.
2. Spotty welding (very inconsistant frame to frame)and single pass?
3. In my opinion - ugly - blasted or brushed
4. Graphics are horrible - dated and cheap looking
5. Horribly overpriced
6. I've seen quite a few where alignment was way off, headtube, bb, seat tube was not: chased/faced/reamed or a combo of
7. Burrs left in seat tube area where vertical slot to clamp seat post is
8. Cheesy dropouts
9. Bends...run your finger down a seat or chainstay on any of their mountain bike...., feel that buldge? Horrible.
10. Goofy (and I mean goofy) multishaped 'ride enhancing' tubes (to their credit, they do a good job at it) - but, you're kidding, right?
11. Pop-rivet water bosses - cheap
12. I seen many with machine oil and metal shavings in the seat tube, headtube, bb area. - Again, finishing is very spotty.
13. Completely false advertising - out and out lies - "The ONLY company that cold works and stress relieves the tubes" - positively bullshit
14. Non-advertising - the huge 6/4 down'tubes' - are not tubes at all. They are shaped 'plates' - I've never noticed them advertising that. Will it ever break down that long weld? Who knows, I never will, cause I'll never own one. I do not want a weld running down the length of any tube.
15. Never give credit where credit is due: have copied many ideas from other people/sources
I could go on about the mountain frames, but this is a road forum. Let's see, I got 15 objective things before I've even had a cup of coffee. You got hooked on the marketing hype dude, they aren't all bad, but they sure aren't what people crack them up to be.
|You should learn the meaning of the word||Lazyrider|
Jul 14, 2001 8:33 AM
|objective because many of your points are actually subjective criticisms. Graphics and the fact that you don't like the brushed finished(that all ti bikes essentially come in) are SUBJECTIVE as is your OPINION that they are overpriced and the multishaped tubes are "GOOFY" is also subjective. As far as the rolled 6/4 tubes, Litespeed does advertise how they do it so you are misinformed and my LBS who is the biggest Litespeed dealer in the state has NEVER seen the weld break down the tube nor the finish problems you talk about with any consistency. I haven't seen the finishing problems as you have stated but it is possible as Litespeed moves many frames per year and any company with their volume will have some minor blemishes occasionally. Trust me the amount of frames you have seen are a very small percentage. Plus I bought my bike 4 years ago DUDE, before Litespeed's proliferation, so I did not get drawn into any marketing hype. So go get you dictionary and cup of coffee so you can think more clearly about what objective means. Blah Blah Blah. You always have a comment when Litespeed is mentioned. You are redundant and lame. I asked about Scatante frames before and you were the only douchebag to respond. You are obsessed dude.|
|hey Lazyrider, aren't you the idiot...||Crazyrider|
Jul 14, 2001 3:04 PM
|that was posting trash on cyclingforum.com? Glad to hear you're out of work, the boss finally got wise to your sorry, worthless, butt! Here's hoping your Blightseed is cold comfort while you are at the unemployment office looking for your handout. Loser.|
Jul 14, 2001 3:56 PM
|First off, I quit my job and don't need unemployment to pay my bills. I never lived pay check to pay check you douche. No, i am not the one posting on cyclingforum.com. Never heard of it. Your assumption that I would need unemployment gives me the answer to your financial situation as that is where you would find yourself.
Go out and ride your bike you silly boy. Like I said before, I posted here and was very respectful until jerkO$$s like you chime in. As far as my employment situation. Would you rather be taking the whole summer off like me or going to yourmiserable job everyday??? I am well educated, I'll find a job when I need one but until then I sleep late and ride far. I have another 37 years to work and be a miserable bastard like you. Check in with me next year and by then I should be as ornery as you. I aplogize to those who find my post abrasive, but I enjoy responding to these morons. Anyway, I have enough friends, I could give a rat's ass of who likes what I have to say here. By the way, I post under a differnt name here and am very respectful.
|A suggestion||mike mcmahon|
Jul 14, 2001 4:10 PM
|I noticed that you guys have your e-mail addresses attached to your posts. Why not do us all a favor and continue your bickering by e-mail where the rest of us don't have to be bothered with it? This really isn't the place for name-calling and squabbling about who makes more money.|
|You should learn the meaning of the word||VaMootsman|
Jul 14, 2001 8:09 PM
|..wow...DUDE...you' re THE one OBSESSED. Your high cased LETTERS are incredibly ANNOYing. YOU ARE the ONE that asked the QUESTIONS.And I answered THEM. The ONLY REASON I answered the question about whatever that frame WAS (SCATante?) ....because I'VE NEVER HEARD OF THEM. (SCAT...I reckon the abbreviation says it all) BUT...I can only assume they are better Than ANY LITESPEED. (They have to be...)
You, my fine friend, have a chill. You are a completely ingnorant purchaser of anything remotely close to a 'PRO QUALITY FRAME'.
God, I want to cuss, swear, praise to the holy baba about LITESPEED, but I can only hold down the SHIFT KEY so much, and there is only so much to say about them.
Have a grand time with your Macalu........
|WOW, you need some anger management!!||Lazyrider|
Jul 14, 2001 8:37 PM
|you still need to learn the meaning of the word objective. The fact that you never heard of, or seen the Scattante (2 t's)frames and would automatically assume the suck because of the Scat part of the name (which is not an abbreviation genius), makes me not value your opinion at all as you judge without any true knowledge of the frame. Therefore, your opinion on Litepseed MEANS NOTHING!!!!! I ask you once again, what do you ride??? I bet it is some classic italian frame so you can pretend you are some half ass european pro. What do you ride??? See, the difference between you and me is that if you have a nice bike, I can appreciate it. I don't have this hatred you seem to harbor against Litespeed. Did your father get fired from Litespeed and that is why you had to grow up in the trailer??? That would explain the anger. Others don't appreciate these little spats but you bring out the worst in me. Now XXX, go grab some tissue and watch your porno and call it a night.|
|WOW, you need some anger management!!||VaMootsman|
Jul 15, 2001 8:24 AM
|aaahhh, are you mad? You're quite a bit like a Litespeed (so easy to razz, because they're so easy to razz). Not quite finished, rough around the edges, and a bit of machine oil. No, I've no Italian bikes now...have had many though. I will not mention what I ride, makes no difference. I do know though, my bike(s) are a far better bike(s) than any Litespeed. They are simply not a good bike.
And when I was watching that porno, I fell asleep when that scene with your girlfriend came on.
|WOW, you need some anger management!!||Lazyrider|
Jul 15, 2001 9:07 AM
|I am glad to see that you fell asleep when my girlfriend came on to save you the trauma. Your mother and I won an AVN award for our performance but I don't think you would have appreciated it as much. Don't try to match wit with me, you'll lose you hillbilly. Now go straighten up the outside of your trailer, the neighbors want to roast a pig today. And my Litespeed is a fine bike with many thousands of miles on it. Proof is in the performance, you douche, not in the image.
|WOW, you need some anger management!!||VaMootsman|
Jul 16, 2001 6:00 AM
|Do you want to fight? I'll make you squeel like a piggy, boy. And, I like my trailer. It's big enough to store all my bikes. You seem very intent on proving your purchase of an inferior machine and try to do so with lowbrow insults. Won't work. I am very smug in my knowledge that I have a superior machine, wit, and knowledge of the cycling world. Have you ever even been in a frame shop? Have you ever been to Interbike? Interbike Europe? Taipai? Thought so...being unemployed doesn't allow such travel. Litespeed is the behind the scenes laughing stock of Interbike. They strut around in their startched and pressed white collar shirts and ties and look like complete idiots.
Oh, that's right!!!! Look whom they're selling to....!
And you'll have to fill me in with what AVN Awards are. I'm afraid I've no time with such nonsence.
|please take it outside!||Dog|
Jul 16, 2001 6:47 AM
|We don't care to read this petty, immature, silly bickering and name calling. Are you guys 14 year olds? I'd hate to think adults would be engaging in such nonsense. Please spare us and complete your exchanges by e-mail, assuming you feel you need to do them at all. Please. Thanks.
|PACT VIOLATIONS!!! (nm)||buzzz|
Jul 16, 2001 7:07 AM