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Forum Pact, Part II(75 posts)

Forum Pact, Part IIDog
Jun 14, 2001 6:16 PM
Who will sign on to a pact on the forum?

I will:

*Not employ personal insults, malicious attacks, name calling, foul language

*Speak to the issues, not attacking the person

*Be honest and fair

*State opinions grounded in fact or reason

*Offer sincere help, particularly to newer riders and posters

*Respect other's opinions, no matter how we disagree

*Respect and follow the Forum Terms of Use: http://www.consumerreview.com/terms.asp

*Not respond in kind to others not respecting the Pact

*Report violations to the Forum Manager: mailto:gkato@roadbikereview.com

Who's on board? Any more suggestions?

Doug Sloan
Fresno, CA
re: Forum Pact, Part IISkip
Jun 14, 2001 6:19 PM
I will.

Skip
re: Forum Pact, Part IIBrokeSpoke
Jan 7, 2002 7:24 PM
Agreed. I just want to pedal my bike.
Sign Me UpSlipstream
Mar 1, 2002 7:24 PM
Frank, open and fair discussions are what this board should be about. There is no room for those who attack, insult, or flame others.

There is plenty of room for critical opinions, where the emphasis is on careful and exact evaluation and judgment; there is no room for the critic who inclined to judge severely and adversely.
re: Forum Pact, Part IIrfrancisco
Mar 8, 2002 8:45 PM
Sign me up!
Glad you're back - I'm on board!davidl
Jun 14, 2001 6:48 PM
Nah. WAY too high-minded for me. nmsteeveo
Jun 15, 2001 12:35 PM
hasn't really seemed that bad latelyHank
Jun 14, 2001 6:54 PM
just kind of boring, as Old Man Grumpus pointed out. I kind of liked the thread last week about high speed shimmies where various people got their noses out of joint. And I think it's going way too far to expect people to "state opinions grounded in fact or reason." We're talking about bikes, after all. I also reserve the right to disrespect other's opinions, and to respond to others who aren't respecting the "Pact." And I'm certainly not going to report any "violations." I think the rest of the list is pretty reasonable, though.
Agreemike mcmahon
Jun 14, 2001 7:00 PM
I'm with Hank on two points. First, I agree that the real problem lately hasn't been lack of civility but lack of substance. Things have been a bit boring. Second, I also have a problem with reporting people for violations. Gregg seems to keep a pretty good eye on things and takes action when someone gets really out of hand. I'd say we take a laissez-faire (sp?) approach to flamers and others who can't treat others on the board with respect. If they're ignored, they'll go away.
re: Forum Pact, Part IIJohn Frank
Jun 14, 2001 7:23 PM
I whole-heartedly agree with your Forum Pact!

I don't post to this board often, but I read it almost daily. I'm relatively new to biking and I've learned a great deal from reading the material posted here.

There have been a few posts of late that taken away from the joyful experience of gleaning information from this board. Opening what you think might be a useful post and finding a flame war is discouraging.
re: Forum Pact, Part IIkyvdh
Jun 14, 2001 7:26 PM
I'm all for it. I've enjoyed some good replies to some of my questions lately and really appreciate it. I only wish I had more experience to share with the group.
re: Forum Pact, Part IIAndrew
Jun 14, 2001 7:35 PM
Consider it signed.

Andrew
I'm in.look271
Jun 14, 2001 7:40 PM
Although I agree with Hank and Mike; it's mostly just been boring, except for the occassional intrusions into the forum by some MT bikers, trying to start a flame war. If ignored, they'll go away.
I'm in.AD14
Jun 14, 2001 7:48 PM
I have only read this board since last fall but I agree with Doug that there has been a decline in the way people treat each other in this forum. I too think the pact is a great idea and will abide by it. I also tend to think we should do something about those who abuse this board-there is way too much apathy in the world-lets take ownership in what we do here.
aw, mtbers aren't that badHank
Jun 14, 2001 7:58 PM
it's the engineer wanna-bees/high school physics pseudo-geniuses who cause most of the trouble. And the Singlespeed board at mtbr.com is by far the most chummy/civil/genuinely helpful board I've seen.
Like part 1, I'm in (nm)peloton
Jun 14, 2001 7:45 PM
nm
Do me up!empacher6seat
Mar 26, 2002 9:49 AM
lol =)
I'll sign that. I'm new to biking, and i've learned so much from the people on the board, and despite my pathetically novice entries and questions, I've received better information from people here then at any bike shop I've visted.
Count me in(nm)Dave Hickey
Jun 14, 2001 8:01 PM
'K nmMel Erickson
Jun 14, 2001 8:10 PM
re: Forum Pact, Part IIRich Clark
Jun 14, 2001 8:24 PM
I don't post a lot, and if I get busy and miss a few days it's like a whole new board when I come back, but I've actually always been impressed with the level of civility here, and the relative lack of need for moderator intervention. Cycling, of course, brings out the best in the best people, so that probably accounts for it.

Sure, I'm on board. It's easier to be polite anyway.

RichC
re: Forum Pact, Part IIVon Zip
Jun 14, 2001 8:29 PM
I'm in.
As a newbie to the forum and a mountainbiker...Joe B.
Jun 14, 2001 8:44 PM
... I'll sign despite the comments made in this very thread (re: mountainbikers) which would seem to be at odds with the pact itself.

Not that I get involved in many of the tech discussions anyway... Currently my roadbike specific knowledge is minimal and mostly a decade old.

A suggestion regarding troublemakers on the forum. Other forums I participate in have a "Don't feed the Troll." policy. (Troll being a slang term, ie "Trolling" for a response...) A "Don't feed the Troll" reminder response by whoever notices the inflammatory posting first goes along way towards helping people to think before they respond. They DO go away if you ignore them...

Other places I've "hung out" at online have quickly gone sour after their initial golden period... actions like these seem to often come too late. (both regarding content and behavior) But I've often thought since I started lurking here that you seem much more controlled and self-restrained than other places. You should congratulate yourselves on that no matter how you may think the forum currently compares to days gone by.

Joe
Only promise to...Breck
Jun 14, 2001 8:58 PM
Say my prayers every night before going to bed :)
Amen.

Breck Leath
Julian, California
Really ,whats the problem?Tom C
Jun 14, 2001 9:12 PM
Frankly, people being human i.e. occasionally ill-mannered, opinionated, off-the-wall etc. is far more interesting than following a conduct of manners in which what is genuine, whether good bad or otherwise is sacrificed for what amounts to yet another form of political correctness.
nothing wrong with being opinionated...keith m
Jun 15, 2001 7:48 AM
but ill-mannered I can do without. I'm in
doug, and thank you for this reminder.
always try toofuzzybunnies
Jun 14, 2001 9:47 PM
never signed my name to the previous one but, since it's a good though on keeping a pleasent community friendly I might as well sign on to this one. TTFN
But, of course, Doug (nm)Jon Billheimer
Jun 14, 2001 10:19 PM
My takeWailer
Jun 14, 2001 11:12 PM
My first thought, and I say this only to initiate discussion, is why do YOU, Doug Sloan, want to CONTROL something that just a day or so ago you were bored with, too busy, ad nauseum, and dropped like a rock in the ocean? Sure, you took a swipe at the trolls and flames, but it came far down the list of why you split. You took your bat and your ball and went home. Are you now saying that you are no longer bored, no longer too busy now that you feel you have a forum to save, that you will guide us from the desert like Moses? Seems kind of schmaltzy to me. Might there be an issue there? Does that fit the pact? I hope so because that is my opinion grounded in fact and reason.

I am all about an open exchange of ideas, beliefs, factoids, helpful hints, whatever. I even support hitting each other over the head with them. I believe this board needs some spark to keep it interesting, like remarked to Len J, (and in his ever steady way, turned aside my rant, patted me on the head, and then sent me outside to play. I think he might be my Grandpa?), some exposure to different ways of thinking, some self assessment.

Most cyclists, and people in general, are not single dimensional robotrons spouting PC mantras. You got your aluminum fans, the steel is real crowd, Ti worshippers and those CF badboys. It takes all kinds. It takes those who will cry foul at the whiney crybaby crap, the "I need some confirmation from the group, is it OK if my tires aren't the same color", and the out and out BS and it takes guys like Len J who will say, "yep, got your point, lets move on." It takes guys like Hank who offers views based on experience and not the latest ad campaign or what is fashionable. Hank don't buy new bikes every time someone says something else is better or they have new colors for the model year. People who think the soul of cycling is the cyclist, not the machinery. I see a lot of people who say they hate the attacks and insults pick on Grz Monkey, whyzat?

* Not employ personal insults, malicious attacks, name calling, foul language

I have not used foul language, largely because it is unnecessary. But I will insult and attack if need be. As Rooster Cogburn was fond of saying, "Why I never did kill nobody that didn't have it coming."

* Speak to the issues, not attacking the person

What if the person is the issue? Have you read some of the BS in some of these posts, my own included?

* Be honest and fair

In who's judgement? Can you define it or do you feel you are qualified to qualify others comments? If not you, who? Who are the cognoscenti among us?

* State opinions grounded in fact or reason

Really? Since when have even 10% of the worlds opinions met those criteria? Judging from just this weeks posts, if all abided by that, the board would be pretty thin and RBR wouldn't care much for that since they pitch volume of visits to attract advertisers.

* Offer sincere help, particularly to newer riders and posters

I agree, new folks should be properly fertilized. They should also have a sense of humor, be comfortable with who they are, and a keep a firm grip on reality. They don't have to have mine, they can have their own.

* Respect other's opinions, no matter how we disagree

Glad you brought this up but having an opinion on its own does not demand respect nor should it. Jim "ain't the Kool-Aid fine?" Jones had opinions. To take it to an extreme, Hitler had opinions as did Stalin and Mao and those regimes are perfect examples of what happens when everyone "follows the rules." These are my opinions, how do you feel about them. Should I be censored because of them? Cast out? Play Cain to your Abel? My advice is to think for yourself and always question authority. If you don't they'll take your freedom away from you bit by bit.

* Respect and follow the Forum Terms of Use: http://www.consumerreview.com/terms.asp

mutatis mutandi
"Jim "ain't the Kool-Aid fine?" Jones"Joe B.
Jun 15, 2001 12:08 AM
Just spit my tasty beverage all over the keyboard when I read that...

Felt I should make it known...

Of course, my tasty beverage is likely to have influenced my judgement...

Joe
oh, myDog
Jun 15, 2001 6:57 AM
*Not taking control, merely offering a code of civility - I can't take control of anything

*We did the pact before, and it was overwhelmingly well received

*No need for extremes - just because we agree to be civil rather than inflamatory, it doesn't follow that we will become "single dimensional robotrons spouting PC mantras" - we can be civil and disagree bitterly

*I've not accused anyone in particular of being rude, even you

*By addressing the argument, rather than the person, I believe we raise the mutual respect level. For example, if someone writes "all aluminum bikes are harsh", which is more effective in response "you are an idiot", or "I've ridden every kind of bike and it's not true"? That's the difference I'm addressing.

*Those who pick on Grz Monkey are a prime example of what not to do; he offers lots of helpful information, and like anyone else, occasionaly he may get facts wrong; no need to call him an idiot for it

*OK, at least *attempt* to be honest and fair

*I think everyone loves good humor

*There is a difference between respecting an opinion and agreeing with it. As far as most people are concerned, including those you mentioned, it's not so much the opinions that cause problems, as the actions; sure, disagree and even fight against the opinions

*Some posts are quite colorful, and even entertaining when they inflammatory and even rude; sort of like Andrew Dice Clay or Richard Pryor - they may make us laugh, but we're probably sort of ashamed of it deep inside, and it drags the level of discussion down a bit

Doug
oh, myAD14
Jun 15, 2001 8:08 AM
Man, its nice to have you back Doug.
We did the pact before, and it was overwhelmingly well receivedColnagoFE
Jun 15, 2001 11:14 AM
and that was one time too many in my opinion. this exact kind of thread drags down discussion if you ask me. the a$$holes will still post what they want.
If it was so well received,Wailer
Jun 15, 2001 12:13 PM
why does it need repeating? Unfortunately, my original post was truncated, so closing was truncated, probably for the better but the community is who will ultimately set the tone for the board, not a pact. A pact is only as strong as you are willing to police it and bend others to it. You are a lawyer and lawyers like it when things are confined within them, I forgive you that, but the point is, they are your laws, not mine. I do not need you to tell me how to act or treat others on an open forum, that is my job. There will always be sheep who will baaa whatever they are told to baaa at as long is they are not hurt, history is full of examples. People too often place their faith in those who profess some authority or power or righteousness. They are much better off when they trust and empower themselves. If you want a police state forum, sell one of your bikes, buy a website and some forum software and have at it. It can be called the Fresno Communist Cycling Site and Militia.
Some do. Me, I like understanding thingsWailer
Jun 15, 2001 12:30 PM
including why you are calling me Steve or is that your name? I can't tell if you are stating it or asking it. If you are asking, my name is not Steve, my name is not even in that quad. I am Wailer, itching powder to the masses, believer of PV=nRT.
PV=nRTgrz mnky
Jun 15, 2001 6:22 PM
It isn't an ideology. It's a physical law - nice to know you believe in some forms of reality.

By itching powder do you mean crabs?
Gee, and after those nice things I said about youWailer
Jun 15, 2001 8:42 PM
So the tide has turned. Yes, PV=nRt is a law, the perfect gas law to be precise. Who said it was an ideology? I said I believed it, do you? I also believe in all forms of reality, even yours.

Nope, no more crabs for me once I stopped dating your mother. Hey, calm down, it's a joke and I promise not make any bible/orifice references. When I said "itching powder" I meant i-t-c-h-i-n-g p-o-w-d-e-r. As in maple seed hairs, you twit.
This is sad!peloton
Jun 15, 2001 10:27 PM
In a thread started as an idea to encourage people to be civil to one another, and agree to disagree civily, a flame war has broken out.

These types of flame wars, and the people who think this is their private forum for berating others is what drives away good cycling conversation and the good posters that create such discussion.

Maybe Greg could start a 'flame warfare' forum for the intellectuals who think talking about cycling in a civil fashion is a bad thing.
Are you flaming me?Wailer
Jun 16, 2001 12:16 AM
Peleton my man, no-one is getting flamed and we are being civil. It is just GMonkey and me playing tug o' war inside his head. For someone who is not in the trenches facing a flaming death, with none of these little bullets of love aimed your way, you seem to overreacting. Nobody got hurt, no nasty words were uttered, just an honest disagreement between two old friends who happen to share space in the same head. If you haven't figured it out, GM has a multiple personality disorder. I, Wailer, am the smart one who gets the fine chicks. GM usually just does the laundry, washes the dishes, cleans the bathroom and my bikes drivetrain. He also trims my toenails. If I oversleep he will sneak out and post here occassionally, usually displaying somewhat unbalanced behavior. I mean it is bible stuffing and nasty remarks about other peoples religious beliefs one minute and a moving tribute to Doug the next. Pay no attention, I'll up the doseage and keep a closer eye on him. Other than that, we were just having another Sybil conversation about cycling. "Flame Warfare", is that subtle reference to the Roman army? That is funny!

Cycling trivia: What bicycle manufacturer had a bike model named the Flame?
very subtle referencepeloton
Jun 17, 2001 11:29 AM
I'm impressed that anyone even picked up on it. :)
Not even a skirmish.grz mnky
Jun 18, 2001 6:11 PM
Hey, Wailer and I are just having some fun trading barbs. He's a bit more literate than I, but I have a bit more techie knowledge (I started in the humanities program, but found that the people weren't cool so I switched to engineering where everyone is cool). You might think that we hate each other when in fact we'd probably get along well in person. Dare I say famously?

I guess one has to decide if everything here should nice and plesant with lots of PC-speak or can we be a bit more freewheeling (<---cycling reference here). We could soften things down to the consistency of a boiled copy of USA Today, but I don't think anyone wants that. It's the individuals, their experiences, opinions and different perspective that makes this place interesting. Hey, maybe we can get Bicycling Magazine to be our group moderator. Maybe that's not such a good idea.

What would be your ideal and is it realistic? Should questions about faith and any response not directly addressing the topic at hand be censored immediately? If not, is it OK if I ask about circumcisions? It has nothing to do with cycling (well, *maybe* it does), it's just that I'm circumcised and out of curiosity would like to know who else (male or female) on the board is also circumcised. We could do a "quick poll" and also find out prefered saddle type and if people wore undies below their bike shorts. Think of the possibilities.....

Actually, I really don't need or want to know - I'm just trying to make a point. We're all big boys and girls, you can skip over the stuff you don't agree with or chuck a flaming virtual spear. The choice is yours which is OK if you happen to like choices and I do.
Funny!!!!!!!!!!Bobbity
Jun 18, 2001 5:17 PM
nt
Precise?grz mnky
Jun 18, 2001 5:47 PM
Ahhh, hate to rain on your retort (but I will), it's called the *Ideal* Gas Law - you twit. ;-)

You gotta realize that when you take a firm stand on something it can come back and bite you if you're wrong. I've "learned" this over and over and try to carefuly qualify things that I state and above all have a sense of humor. In fact I'm still learning. Thick skin helps.

C'mon, you gotta admit the crabs bit was pretty funny for your "itching powder to the masses." I'm still giggling....

Just remember: Reality is for people who can't handle drugs. ;-)
Who is wrong?Wailer
Jun 19, 2001 6:14 AM
It was the perfect gas law before it was the ideal gas law. 10-years ago, everyone called it the perfect gas law, and it still is to me. But, being called perfect was offensive to all the lesser gas laws and they eventually were able to associate being called perfect with racism and bigotry, therefor the more PC "ideal." They don't like that either, and I am sure they will eventually get it called something like homogenous gas law or average gas law. This is much like how those oil drilling, wilderness raping, environmental ruining, greenhouse gas spewing, rights stealing, moral majority hypocrites are now called compassionate conservatives. Yep, same thing.
You Is.grz mnky
Jun 19, 2001 11:33 AM
You're so full of methane! Mark's Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers, page 3-44, COPYRIGHT 1978.

It's called the Ideal Gas Law b/c there isn't actually any gas that meets the "ideal" - the closest would be the Noble Gases. Noble b/c they own all the land having been granted these rights by the king. The other gases are called the Serf Gasses and work the land to eek out a minimal survival and turn all of the fruit (and grains) of their labor over to the Nobles.
These guys are greatmike mcmahon
Jun 19, 2001 11:45 AM
They remind me of Ali and Frazier, Lincoln and Douglas, Ralph and Alice Kramden.
These guys are greatgrz mnky
Jun 19, 2001 11:53 AM
Really? I was thinking more of Lucy and Dezi, Abbott and Costello...
Are you claimingmike mcmahon
Jun 19, 2001 12:13 PM
to be Lucy or Dezi, Bud or Lou?
Luuucy! You got some splainin' to do!Wailer
Jun 19, 2001 12:48 PM
Monkeyboy, check this link, http://www.taftan.com/thermodynamics/IDEALGAS.HTM

or do a simple search for perfect gas law. With a search you will discover that the ideal gas and perfect gas law are one and the same and that perfect gas law is its original nome de plume. I too have a Marks, not the best reference, but it will do. BTW, mine is a 10th edition, 1996, with thermodynamics beginning in section 4, so perhaps not only is your knowledge incomplete, it is also dated. Time to upgrade.

Babbaluuuuuu!
Oh Riiiiicky!grz mnky
Jun 19, 2001 1:34 PM
Ah, but you missed your own point - you said that _prior_ to ten years ago it was known as the Perfect Gas Law, so I pulled a reference that was at least 10 years old to back up my position (Forum Pact...) whilst you attempted to change yours. My references and knowledge are up to date - unless the Law has been repealed....

Also, notice how the heading for your reference is "Ideal or Perfect Gas Law" (with Ideal coming first (BFD)) AND the web address uses "IDEAL." I know that this isn't perfect (gawd, what a beautiful pun).

All of this is much ado about nothing since it is in fact all the same thing. To truly split the final (maple seed) hair we'd need to go all the way back to the chap that came up with it and see what he called it, but I'm not going to do that just now - maybe in a little while.
References 4 Mr. Wailergrz mnky
Jun 19, 2001 1:43 PM
http://members.nbci.com/mmatthews/chemtutor/gas_law1.htm

http://www.treasure-troves.com/physics/IdealGasLaw.html

Seems the techies all use "Ideal" while the poets have trouble with the concept.
Bone Headgrz mnky
Jun 15, 2001 6:19 PM
One of the reasons why the modern day Malitia's have been formed is to prevent things like Communism. So linking "militia" and "communism" demonstrates a total lack of understanding on your part. Put the bong down and think if you want to be taken seriously.
Cranial rectitusWailer
Jun 15, 2001 10:25 PM
Ummm, militias have been around long before communism was defined as a societal movement. Of course, if you can't spell militia, I guess it is asking too much for understand its meaning in the world at large. Or, that China, that plane stealing bastion of communism and cheap Ti bikes (<- cycling content), has a militia, i.e., citizens army.

Besides, if by using "modern militias" you are referring to the semi-organized paramilitary groups popular with McVeigh, et al, those are formed so fat guys of below average intelligence can play with guns and thump their chests while pretending to be GI Joe with a Kung Fu grip. Gives them a break from beating their wives. Are we cool honeybunny?
Cranial rectitusTom C
Jun 15, 2001 10:36 PM
See people, you have to admit it, the uncensored response is the entertainment that the soberly correct answers to tech questions just doesn't always provide. In Chicago, we watched the White Sox primarily to see if the great Jim Piersall could top his, "the White Sox players wives are just a bunch of horny broads" remark.As long as you don't get fired from here Wailer, keep on Wailing.
Rooster CogburnBreck
Jun 15, 2001 9:03 AM
Named my male Barred Rock rooster "Rooster Cogburn" and it fit. He nailed my new collie pup Max on the nose one day; Max-Bee lined it into the cabin and under the bed. He nailed the Missus any time she would come into his territory which was just about anywhere he would be. He nailed me onced too often & decided to teach him a lesson. Held him upside down by his two well spurred feet and walked around "my territory" shaking him up and down. This cured him for about a week. The Gander Goose he left alone and in Bob the cat he made his fatal error. Old Bobcat we let live on the north east section of the ranch cause he stays up there among the oaks and pines. He would flatten out but not run if you came near him which was no more than 50 or so yards for me. A truly beautiful animal and maybe to much so like a large feline house cat for old Rooster Cogburn to discern the difference.

Cogburn's gone and replaced by another (Plymouth)Barred Rock rooster but he ain't the same. Hasn't got the spirit old Cogburn had. But Collie dog Max can't tell the difference and gives him a wide berth just in case.

Me can tell the difference between those on the Board truly got a mean spirit and those just got a more spirited nature. Would not support a true lock down on the board and we all be a prisoner of those self appointed one's seem always wanting to be in charge. What ever happened to Corncobbilly and JR? They had a way of controlling the old board like none other and got "controlled" a few times myself and listened up and paid attention.

You must know some posters are more popular than others and get-away-with more indiscretions ...that is postings that if done by me or a few monikers could mention would be less tolerated. Every one has their nature and beliefs and even dogmas. Like a row of dominoes set up ..some posters ask the "question" and it goes around the path with a seemingly life of it's own and in the end all is flat but good wild ride and show. Some really good questions get panned for what ever reason and in the end it is all flat, etc ...no wild ride or show s alas, a boringly good question but no real interest or reel interest one might say. No Box Office attraction.

No one seems to want to learn by experience anymore. "They" want your experience to be theirs. But your experience can not be theirs and one can only "guide" if one's own Bias is clearly stated, which never seems to be the case and why any ways as how could the so called "Newbie" understand it. The board will exist with or without "us", whom ever we are and what ever we choose to say however we choose to say it.

enuff of me ramblings, pact on :)

cheers
bgcc
Are you really Gimmeaminute or one of those classic flamers?nmGoodonyou
Aug 10, 2001 10:43 AM
OK.......Starliner
Jun 14, 2001 11:20 PM
Yes I agree to being nice. I might get a bit raunchy from time to time but that is just me......
My takeWailer
Jun 14, 2001 11:25 PM
My first thought, and I say this only to initiate discussion, is why do YOU, Doug Sloan, want to CONTROL something that just a day or so ago you were bored with, too busy, ad nauseum, and dropped like a rock in the ocean? Sure, you took a swipe at the trolls and flames, but it came far down the list of why you split. You took your bat and your ball and went home. Are you now saying that you are no longer bored, no longer too busy now that you feel you have a forum to save, that you will guide us from the desert like Moses? Seems kind of schmaltzy to me. Might there be an issue there? Does that fit the pact? I hope so because that is my opinion grounded in fact and reason.

I am all about an open exchange of ideas, beliefs, factoids, helpful hints, whatever. I even support hitting each other over the head with them. I believe this board needs some spark to keep it interesting, like remarked to Len J, (and in his ever steady way, turned aside my rant, patted me on the head, and then sent me outside to play. I think he might be my Grandpa?), some exposure to different ways of thinking, some self assessment.

Most cyclists, and people in general, are not single dimensional robotrons spouting PC mantras. You got your aluminum fans, the steel is real crowd, Ti worshippers and those CF badboys. It takes all kinds. It takes those who will cry foul at the whiney crybaby crap, the "I need some confirmation from the group, is it OK if my tires aren't the same color", and the out and out BS and it takes guys like Len J who will say, "yep, got your point, lets move on." It takes guys like Hank who offers views based on experience and not the latest ad campaign or what is fashionable. Hank don't buy new bikes every time someone says something else is better or they have new colors for the model year. People who think the soul of cycling is the cyclist, not the machinery. I see a lot of people who say they hate the attacks and insults pick on Grz Monkey, whyzat?

* Not employ personal insults, malicious attacks, name calling, foul language

I have not used foul language, largely because it is unnecessary. But I will insult and attack if need be. As Rooster Cogburn was fond of saying, "Why I never did kill nobody that didn't have it coming."

* Speak to the issues, not attacking the person

What if the person is the issue? Have you read some of the BS in some of these posts, my own included?

* Be honest and fair

In who's judgement? Can you define it or do you feel you are qualified to qualify others comments? If not you, who? Who are the cognoscenti among us?

* State opinions grounded in fact or reason

Really? Since when have even 10% of the worlds opinions met those criteria? Judging from just this weeks posts, if all abided by that, the board would be pretty thin and RBR wouldn't care much for that since they pitch volume of visits to attract advertisers.

* Offer sincere help, particularly to newer riders and posters

I agree, new folks should be properly fertilized. They should also have a sense of humor, be comfortable with who they are, and a keep a firm grip on reality. They don't have to have mine, they can have their own.

* Respect other's opinions, no matter how we disagree

Glad you brought this up but having an opinion on its own does not demand respect nor should it. Jim "ain't the Kool-Aid fine?" Jones had opinions. To take it to an extreme, Hitler had opinions as did Stalin and Mao and those regimes are perfect examples of what happens when everyone "follows the rules." These are my opinions, how do you feel about them. Should I be censored because of them? Cast out? Play Cain to your Abel? My advice is to think for yourself and always question authority. If you don't they'll take your freedom away from you bit by bit.

* Respect and follow the Forum Terms of Use: http://www.consumerreview.com/terms.asp

mutatis mutandi
I'm in, however....DINOSAUR
Jun 14, 2001 11:51 PM
I'll agree to it, but in all honesty, I don't think it will work. We've been down this road before a couple of times. It's sort of like trying to control the speed limit on the freeway, it's a lost cause.
You can't each people how to treat each other on the internet, all you can do is to try to control yourself. Everything comes in full circle and we are back to square one again, as usual. One problem is this forum is very poplar and probably has gotten too big. Alas, perhaps like all good things, it has had it's time and place and maybe we need to look somewhere else. My opinion only...
re: Forum Pact, Part II4bykn
Jun 15, 2001 2:04 AM
Doug, good to see you back. I agree with your assessment of the forum, however, a non-binding agreement is essentially worthless unless all posters agree and we all know that ain't gonna happen. Be that as it may, if we all can refrain from being taken in by flame bait, perhaps the flamers will go where they can find some action.
I'm In (nm)Len J
Jun 15, 2001 5:58 AM
Count Me in...Dean.....nmDean
Jun 15, 2001 6:02 AM
NM
Count me in as well...Cima Coppi
Jun 15, 2001 7:10 AM
Ok, but to a pointPaulCL
Jun 15, 2001 7:12 AM
Opinions cannot always be based in fact. They are often based upon experience or personal reasoning - or are simply opinions. But, I will do my best.

PS Welcome back to the board. Sorry to here about your partner. I know what its' like to have to clamor for business that is already yours. Good luck.
Oh all right...Lazy
Jun 15, 2001 7:39 AM
Civility is my middle name! :-)
AgreedDelia
Jun 15, 2001 7:48 AM
Agreed.

-Delia
Where's Lou M???nm
Jun 15, 2001 8:11 AM
nm
no offense butColnagoFE
Jun 15, 2001 9:16 AM
who made you the forum moderator? are we all children here that need to be made to sign a pact in order to behave civilly? I don't get it.
Now that the bullsh#t has been gotten out of the way....Tom C
Jun 15, 2001 9:17 AM
xxx
alrighty, then......................NMHaiku d'état
Jun 15, 2001 9:19 AM
re: Forum Pact, Part IISpokeman
Jun 15, 2001 9:46 AM
Old Man Grumpus will be upset but I'll agree to be a nice person online.
I'm in. (nm)Bruno S
Jun 15, 2001 10:34 AM
Is there a point?muncher
Jun 15, 2001 10:42 AM
Agree compeletly with the principle - but those who will sign up are the reasonable people anyway and it will have no effect on them - the others won't and will carry on as usual?

Seems to me that it's relatively easy to spot the honest and helpful poeple on the board, and usually fairly easy to spot a rogue post. If it's otherwise, unless one checks the pact signatories when considering the contents of a post (and assumes that there will be no name fraud), does anyone benefit?
count me in, nm.Marlon
Jun 15, 2001 11:05 AM
nm
Agreed, as before....(ACE)
Jun 16, 2001 12:29 AM
might add " will ignore posts created by those who seem to take joy in rudeness and idiocy"
better late than.....i'm in (nm)quindog
Jun 19, 2001 5:36 PM