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Arrested while biking!(65 posts)

Arrested while biking!Hershel Krustofski
Apr 25, 2001 11:51 AM
Yesterday's U.S. Supreme Court ruling (the one about being arrested for a fine-only offense) means that we can be arrested, booked, finger-printed, strip-searched and detained in jail for 48 hours for any offense. This means riding on the wrong side of the road, jay-walking, riding w/o a light or reflectors, littering, etc, etc, etc.

The Supreme Court says it is up to the discretion of the cop, and does not violate the 4th ammendment.

Now, How do you like them apples??????
F*** the Police!!!!Thioderek
Apr 25, 2001 12:07 PM
F*** the Police!!!

I have outrun cops in California and I have outrun cops in NYC. I will continue to outrun cops for the rest of my life.
re: Arrested while biking!Jofa
Apr 25, 2001 12:27 PM
My then coach actually got arrested for speeding once, in the late 80's. He was doing 50+ in a 30 limit- a steep downhill into a little village in Cornwall. The policeman who booked him actually admitted it was for the novelty down the station above anything else. Secretly, my coach was quite pleased as well, though it cost him a small fine.
Fair enough though: speeding is speeding, and people can still get hurt. Not sure how this is pertinent to the thread... sorry.
If I ever got a speeding ticket on a bike.....Curtis
Apr 25, 2001 12:33 PM
...I'd frame it!!!
If I ever got a speeding ticket on a bike.....Jofa
Apr 25, 2001 12:42 PM
he did! that's how I know he wasn't lying...
Don't....Curtis
Apr 25, 2001 12:31 PM
....ride on the wrong side of the road, jay-walk, ride without lights/reflectors, litter, etc., etc., etc.

Contrary to what the media and a few twisted minority groups say, law-abiding people have little to fear from the police. First and foremost, obey the law; it really does apply to YOU, too. If, by chance, you are stopped for some minor offense, be polite and courteous, listen to what the man/woman has to say and don't pick a fight with them; chances are, if they stop you, you did wrong, not them.
By the way, I'm NOT a police officer...(nm)Curtis
Apr 25, 2001 12:32 PM
nm
The soccer mom that was arrestedKrusty
Apr 25, 2001 12:43 PM
was by all accounts (and witnesses) being polite and courteous. It was the cop that was abusive. And we all know that there are no over zealous/corrupt police (in NYC, LA, Philly, etc.

If we all follow the law, then we do not need any Bill of Rights, do we?

With all due respect Curtis, you are very, very niave if you think "if they stopped you, you did wrong not them"
Right, Curtismike mcmahon
Apr 25, 2001 1:00 PM
And the cops never pull anyone over based solely on appearance or skin color. Our current Supreme Court is allowing the country to move closer to police state status. Yesterday's decision wasn't one of those rulings that prevents guilty people from walking based on a "technicalty." The ruling does mean that a police officer can take you to jail and have you fingerprinted if, for example, you are not riding your bike close enough to the curb, whether you "mouth-off" or just sit there silently. The problems with Supreme Court rulings like the one yesterday is that they tell the cops they can do more or less anything they want without fear of punishment. Being tough on crime is one thing; allowing the cops to haul off anyone who commits any minor infraction is another altogether. And W will probably appoint a couple of new justices in the next four years!
Don't blame RepublicansJ.S.
Apr 25, 2001 1:11 PM
It's the liberals who think that the government should save people from themselves who should accept equal responsibility for this fiasco.
Huh?mike mcmahon
Apr 25, 2001 1:46 PM
Specifically, in the context of yesterday's Supreme Court decision, let's see who says that the police can arrest anyone for any infraction:

Rehnquist (appointed to SC by Nixon and Chief Justice by Reagan)
Scalia (appointed by Reagan)
Kennedy (appointed by Reagan)
Thomas (appointed by Bush)
Souter (appointed by Bush)

Certainly, those on the left are responsible for their fair share of bad laws, decisions, and policies. However, this one has the fingerprints of the Repulican Right all over it. Tell your mother, wife, and children to signal before changing lanes, or they might end up in the pokey.
Don't....buy itfuzzybunnies
Apr 25, 2001 8:40 PM
I've been bothered by cops just for walking down the street. This just gives cops the right to really screw with high school/collage students, something that frequently happens simply cause the cop doesn't like the person's looks or percieved attitude. As for the "chances are... you did wrong" There's a reason why the state attorney general in ny had a suit going against nypd for illegal stop and detains focusing primarily on minorities. TTFN
i dont believe itishmael
Apr 25, 2001 1:17 PM
ive heard it was being debated but i didnt know it passed..everyone i ever knew who became a cop was a total assshole who liked to play the big man..im not saying all cops are asssholes but this just gives another reason for the asssholes to become cops..i spent one night in jail and it fucckking sucked..someone ateast tell me what the good side of this is, how does it benefit the police to do this..
No need for profainityJ.S.
Apr 25, 2001 1:58 PM
to get your point across, it only deminishes your statements.
Diminishes not deminishes..MrCelloBoy
Apr 25, 2001 2:06 PM
It also diminishes your message to misspell words...
I was pulled over for getting into a left turn lane too soon!!!
I was keeping right up with traffic so I fought the law, and the,
I won!
i dont believe itnutmegger
Apr 25, 2001 2:26 PM
if you were arrested, my money says it was you who was the a-hole playing the big man, not the police
dont believe itBill B
Apr 25, 2001 5:01 PM
Believe it. On a recent group ride here in Florida while the pack rolled down a back road at 25 miles an hour in a 25 mile an hour zone with no other traffic a local yokel cop pulled out of a driveway and as the pack condensed to allow him to pass he accellerated rapidly and came to halt in the middle of the road and got of his cruiser with his baton in his hand and threatened to put it in the spokes of anyone not riding in single file. O.K. O.K., we may have been using the whole lane but as I said, we were doing the speed limit, we were not obstructing traffic as we allowed him to pass us freely not to mention since we were doing the speed limit we were traffic. Even if we were in the wrong does this give him the right to threaten us with violence? I think not!
Always remember; the person most likely to become a cop is the person you least want to be a cop.
i hope you sued..its your civic dutyishmael
Apr 25, 2001 6:48 PM
so that undesirable copper gets his due....
Read the facts before spreading your ignoranceRobO
Apr 25, 2001 7:07 PM
The woman who brought the case to the supreme court was travelling two blocks from her house without her seatbelt, along with her two kids who were also without seatbeats. They were going 15 MPH two blocks away from their house when the cop pulled her over. When the cop pulled her over and asked her for license she told him that it was in her purse which was stolen. The officer told her to get out the car, arrested her then searched her. She was placed in the car while they waited for a friend to pick up her kids. She spent an hour in jail, paid over $300 bond, then paid the $50 per offense for the seat belt ticket($150), and court costs.

If you don't sue because of this there is something wrong with you.
Me TooWayne Scott
Apr 26, 2001 5:17 AM
Two of my high school "friends" became cops, both were total homophobes and racists. One of them was just totally into the power trip. I lived with him when he was a rent-a-cop for the summer in a beach resort town. He just loved to f*** with people and got off on it. I only hope that somewhere over the course of the last 10 or so years these guys gained a little wisdom.
Didn't you know, bikes have no place in north american culture.Largo
Apr 25, 2001 6:57 PM
We don't burn gas, and don't fit in, therefore, we don't belong.
Simple. Even i can understand.
In this hydrocarbon driven western economy, anything that doesn't burn gas is BAD!!!
My Speeding TicketBreck
Apr 25, 2001 7:35 PM
I was buzzing down the American Grade trying to catch a Euro rider as they buzz thru here and was wanting to tell him to slow down, the CHIPs will ticket thru here. Much to my surprise a red glimmer caught my eye in the smeared Rhoades helmet mirror & then the siren sound caught up with me. It was a hot morning so mebee the low density air just didn't get the message to me soon enuff. Pulling right up beside me in the black-and-white, smoking a ceegar, and the Smokey the Bear hat planted firmly on his capable skull, a big finger pointed my way and the car speaker barked "PULL OVER!" Oh shitt, i knew i was in fer it now. Well it wasn't that easy slowing down as the front brakes squealed (needs adjustment i thought) and the rear brakes grabbed and the OCLV slid sideways into the ditch (too much rear brake i thought) and trying to get out of the Looks ( damn, need to grease the cleats mebee) and hit a rock ( not looking where you're going!), and fell and slid down the hill (well geeze, released after all) and hit the Gyro on a tree ... CRACK! (Damn, mom was right, always wear a helmet). Well I got up and tried walking up the rocky bank and could hear the red ARC cleat crack (shitt, forgot the Kool Covers) and made it too the top. He was waitin', one hand on gun and the other rolling the ceegar about in his capable hams. "Do you know how fast you were going?", he said, eyeing the Zefal Pump sticking out the back of the jersey. "Keep your hands where I can see them and up against the car", he said. "OK, officer", I said polite as pie (which i just had a piece of apple so as not to boink). "Was only doing 45 officer", I said, knowing the limit was 50. "You were doing 55 "he said, " just before you hit the curve". "Well" said i, "my computer was just transferred over to the road bike from the mountain and maybe forgot to adjust for wheel size (sounded logical to me)". "No dice", he said (mebee had a bad streak at Vegas i thought), "you're getting a speeding ticket for 55 in a 50". Well good i thought as was having the problem anyhow calibrating the Sigma Sport and the LBS was no help neither and had spent way too much money there trying to get it fixed. So I paid the fine and learned my lesson. Let the flying Euro's go; keep the bike mirror clean; adjust the front brakes so they don't squeal; fix the rear brake; pass on the pie; keep the Zefal hidden; adjust the Looks; keep Kool Covers handy: skip Vegas; read the computer instructions; re-adjust the calcs when switching wheels; know the speed limit; smile when you greet the officer; keep some mad money for tickets & don't give it all to your LBS as the PD may want some of it.

cheers
re: Arrested while biking!DINOSAUR
Apr 25, 2001 9:59 PM
Hmmmmmm do you have something I could read regarding this ruling?

In Calif most traffic violations are infractions. A infraction is a offense which is not bookable, cite and release only. There is a section in the Ca vehicle code that provides an officer the authority to book for a infraction when a person can not satisfactory identify themselves.

God forbid, no one ever lies to cops. I'm not taking sides, but for what it's worth, I'm a retired cop (amen).
re: Arrested while biking!Krusty the Clown
Apr 26, 2001 4:24 AM
Here is a site that gives an overview: http://www.msnbc.com/news/547536.asp

There is also a site for the US Supreme Court. I'm not sure of the address, but it is a .gov.
here is the complete opinion>Dog
Apr 26, 2001 6:12 AM
Here is the complete opinion:

http://www.fresnolaw.com/atwater.htm

I'll just leave the on for a few days, so copy or print it if you want to keep it.

Doug
here is the complete opinion>DINOSAUR
Apr 26, 2001 7:28 AM
Thanks, this is what I wanted to see. This ruling just pertains to the great state of Texas. In Ca safety restraint violations are infractions (not bookable).

I'm not condoning or supporting what the office did, but if you have ever seen a tottler go into the front windshield of a motor vehicle because of poor judgement by an adult, you might want to throw someone in jail also.

Then again, in Ca you can be cited for a infraction for driving 100 MPH. It's an expensive ticket, if you are convicted, but you can't be thrown in jail.

Enough rants for the day. Now I can just go out and ride and be glad that I am retired and don't have to deal with stuff like this anymore...There is the law, and there is common sense.....
over thirty in CaliforniaBreck
Apr 26, 2001 8:06 AM
Thought 30+ mph over the posted speed limit here in Ca. got you a free trip to jail as is considered reckless driving. Riverside's Finest let me off once ( way way back when) and marked the speed down and wanted to look at the Cobra clone engine.

Back in Richardson, Texas (next door to Plano, home of Lance Armstrong) in 1960 mee & my hot-rodding bud Larry got the 110mph in a 55 zone in the '55 Ford thru town. The local PD hot shots used to race us in them daze and could catch the Ford as they had the Ford 312cid police interceptor T-Bird engines on the road. However, in town Gene's '56 Chevy with the Corvette engine, 3dueces, Hurst 4-speed, posi-traction, cut-outs, etc, we could lose 'em in the alleys & Ed's '58 348 Tri power Chev (slightly(!) mod'd) could smoke 'em on the highways. Tires were the scary thing back then but we were too young & dumb to know. Usually ran 'em till could see the air in "em.

No prob in them daze as when we got home the boyz were waitin' with our dad's for us. My ride was a '56 Ford 312cid convertible but was into law abiding as had no $$$ for tickets. My dad was a hot-rodder too w/ corvette engined '62 Chevy wagon.

My last speeding ticket was ~1980 with a 65 in the "new" 55max days. Slow down and live. Sorree for the auto-thread, gets my old blood pumping and control the V8 Tundra 4WD TRD, dual cat-back now a daze. Jeeze how bout the F-150 Lightning! Oops ..jes slipped out.

Timze have changed, even in Texas.

cheers
over thirty in CaliforniaDinosaur
Apr 26, 2001 12:19 PM
I don't know when you got stopped my Riversides finest, but in current times excess speed, even thirty over the limit, does not warrant reckless. The D.A.'s Office for the appropriate county sets the policy for reckless driving. Usually it requires three separate moving violations, such as speed, unsafe lane changes, following too closely. In court the officer must show that the violator exhibited reckless disregard for persons and property. Even 100 MPH is cite and release. The officer could book for reckless, but he would have to prove his case in court. I believe the fine for 100+ is around $800.

Yeah, I was a speed demon myself. I loved going to work and being able to have a license to speed. I started out in Barstow in '72 driving 440 Dodges. That is one part about the job I do miss. I have a '66 Ply Satellite with a tricked up 361 that gets my heart rate pumping once and a while.
over thirty in CaliforniaBreck
Apr 26, 2001 1:58 PM
That's just what the kind officer told me and did not argue(!),and did not lie to him either, etc.

Believe the 440 Dodge CHIPs cars were certified to do 150 mph. A local sheriff had a Plymouth Sat for sale & guaranteed(!) it would do 130 mph, he would not sell it to a (real) kid. Another local sheriff took a friends Corvette out on HWY. 79 between Dudley's and the base of the mountain, brought it back and told him exactly what she would do. Got the Tundra V8 up to a quick 105 mph off Henderson canyon back of Borrego & backed off, keeping a sharp eye out for rabbits crossing the road, etc. My bud's Audi A8 is speed governed by the tires and will do the 130 mph with change out off S2 desert road.

Yeah, me too. gets in your blood. Good thing kids are into loud stereos mostly now a days.

cheers
over thirty in CaliforniaDINOSAUR
Apr 26, 2001 5:36 PM
Well, this might be letting the cat out of the bag, but maybe the good officer was using the old bluffing technique. Bluffing you into thinking he was giving you a break. The problem is you never know when to call a bluff, because if you lose, it's a trip to the slammer. You did the right thing. Times have changed, it could very well be that in many moons past, 30MPH over the speed limit was considered reckless.
Legend was that they ran a '69 Dodge Polara down the Baker Grade (on I-15 between Las Vegas and Barstow) and they timed it at 170MPH. Back then the 440's could run 140MPH all day long. Trouble was the tires did not have the technology they have today. I learned when I heard a loud pop at high speeds, to keep off the brakes and not panic.
I guess this can relate to cycling. Speed>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's why I like it......Proud to say I never cited a cyclist for speeding. However I did scrape a couple of them off of the asphalt. It helps me to remember when I am descending, shi* happens!!!
Yikes!Breck
Apr 26, 2001 7:43 PM
Yikes!

I suppose were in the back 40 now and nobodys paying attention.

Came pretty close to buying the 1999 super charged Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. Damn ws fun to light up the boost guage lights! Old reliable cast iron push rod engine. But opted for the Toy Tundra V8 4WD truck with the DOHC. Live off a jeep road & have the trailer, etc. so couldn't go the car. The Toy is a great bike hauler! ..jes to keep it bike.

Been in the Ft. Worth (Texas) jail a few times :!) Should write a song about it. Like ol' Merle Haggaard from Bakersfield. Believe Merley has a place at Lassen(sp) now up near your neck of the woods?

cheers
I thought Haggard was from Muskogee, OKmike mcmahon
Apr 26, 2001 8:04 PM
Buck Owens is from Bakersfield.
The HagBreck
Apr 27, 2001 6:20 AM
Born in a converted boxcar in Oildale, California, by adolescence he was wandering as far as Texas, etc.

the Okie song in 1969 got him in hot water from his fans thinking he hd become too conservative as this ws during the Vietnam era, etc.

Thx for your keeepin' me on my toes s had to think abit & check!

Buck Owens .... yahoo!
one of my favorites for corn-ball country.

cheers
Ah, beautiful Oildalemike mcmahon
Apr 27, 2001 8:53 AM
one of the charming suburbs of the glamorous and cosmopolitan City of Bakersfield. Oildale definitely is a fitting name for that town: oilwells everywhere. I'm barely old enough to remember Okie from Muskogee creating some controversy.

Everybody sing: "I'm proud to be an Okie from Muskogee, a place where even squares can have a ball, we don't smoke marijuana down in Muskogee, and white lightnin's still the biggest thrill of all."
the lyrics ....!Breck
Apr 27, 2001 10:24 PM
Oakie From Muskogee

We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee;
We don't take our trips on LSD;
We don't burn our draft cards down on Main Street;
We like livin' right, and bein' free.

We don't make a party out of lovin';
We like holdin' hands and pitchin' woo;
We don't let our hair grow long and shaggy,
Like the hippies out in San Francisco do.

I'm proud to be an Oakie from Muskogee,
A place where even squares can have a ball.
We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
And white lightin's still the biggest thril of all.

Leather boots are still in style for mainly footwear;
Beads and roman sandals won't be seen.
Football's still the roughest thing on campus,
And the kids here still respect the college dean.

And I'm proud to be an Oakie from Muskogee,
A place where even squares can have a ball.
We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
And white lightin's still the biggest thril of all.

We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
In Muskogee, Oklahoma, USA.

my uncle and my brother are both country music guitar players in
small bands. I tried but it didn't take, but can play Roger Millers "King of the Road" & simple stuff.

cheers

cheers
over thirty in CaliforniaSkip
Apr 26, 2001 8:14 PM
Best one I've ever heard was (true story): A friend of mine had a friend (female) that was traveling through Illinois in her new Lamborghini, and was, shall we say, letting the car "breathe" on the open interstate. Well, she got pulled over by the state troopers for "exceeding" the posted speed limit. She lowered the window as the trooper approached the car. The trooper asked. "Maam, do you know why I pulled you over?" She replied, in her coy southern acsent, "I'll bet you're here to sell me tickets to the state troopers ball." The officer responded, "No maam, state troopers don't have balls." Well, she burst out laughing, the trooper turned around, red-faced, and high tailed it back to his cruiser, got in, and sped away. No ticket!

Honest, true story, best I've ever heard.
over thirty in CaliforniaDINOSAUR
Apr 27, 2001 8:40 AM
Skip,

I've heard that joke before, don't know if it really happened, one of those jokes that float around and turn into rumors and can't be verified one way or the other.

I heard this one a long, long time ago: A CHP Officer stops a guy for speeding. He walks up to the car, advises the violator of the reason for the stop and asked to see his operators license. The man complies and when the officer examines the license, he notes a $20 bill taped on the back of the license. He aske the man "Is this your $20 bill?"
The man responds "No". The officer says "Well, its not mine either." and peals off the currency and throws it onto the highway. He then proceeds to issue the man a ticket for speeding.
I did have something like this happen to me. Guy was from Chicago. I removed the $20 bill and handed it to him without a comment. Lord forbid, you disgard a $20 bill, as in the joke, in the real world, you would get in trouble.
over thirty in CaliforniaSkip
Apr 27, 2001 11:07 AM
No, this is a true story. It happenened to a good personal friend of a Dr. colleague and 26 year friend of mine.
over thirty in CaliforniaDinosaur
Apr 27, 2001 1:55 PM
All I can say it that the State Trooper did in fact have no balls.
Anyone who is a cop has subject to off color locker room humor and putting up with smelly drunks, who say anything in the world to get to a rise out of you, and is embarassed by a remark like that should think about entering the Preisthood.

Hey Skip what's it like riding on the big island? I daydream in the winter of moving to a warmer climate. We ran across a drop dead gorgeous house for sale at a very reasonable price on the internet a few months ago. It looked too good to be true, then found out it was next to a volcano. Hmmmmm do they have volcano isurance in Hawaii?

Off topic, but I doubt few folks venture back here on page 2.

Dino
over thirty in CaliforniaSkip
Apr 27, 2001 4:23 PM
I think she said that he was just too embarassed when he realized what he had said; she thought if he had issued the ticket, that he may never hear the end of it from his fellow buds, but that was just assumption on her part as he was a tall, and chiseled macho man.

Except for the perverbial rain, the weather is wonderful here - anywhere in the islands. We do average 130"/year (one year, not too long ago, we had 211" - but guess that's what keeps things green; and moldy - Ha!]). We have nice 6-8 foot shoulders on most primary roads, and flat to rolling terrain, plus climbs of a few hundred to nearly 14,000 feet. We do get direct sun, so long mid-day rides necessitates sunscreen. The visuals as well as terrain vary greatly by island and locations on the island. Here on the BI, you can ride from a tropical rainforest to desert, to snow on top of Mauna Kea, to seashore, and everything in between. Eucalyptus scents in some areas are nice assaults on the olfactory. We are not immune to the occasional inattentive and abusive drivers though. Three days ago, I was headed back in from my ride, a mile from home, sailing through an intersection at 25 MPH, when this merging SUV nearly merged right in to me. She never looked - no pause and turn to look at the traffic, no use of mirrors, nothing. I side stepped to the left to avoid becoming an imprint on the side of her vehicle, looking directly into the drivers window, and yelled HEY! She pulled over slightly. I caught up with her at the next light; she rolled (powered) down the passenger window and said sorry. I just said - Look!, and rode up to the light shaking my head.

Before buying sight unseen, I would sure recommend researching the areas for lava flow path and elevation, Hurricane/Tsunami likelyhood, flood risk, and maybe even earthquakes - although they sure don't cause the damage as Cal. gets with the same magnitude (I've been through several of 6.5 - nearly 8 [interesting to watch the walls wave like trees in a wind], and numerous 4.0 and under). The volcano hasn't fountained since 1983, but the flows have been continuous since 1980 (most - to the sea). Royal Gardens was all but wiped out by lava, as was Kalapana and the original black sand beach. Take care.

Skip
re: Arrested while biking!G
Apr 26, 2001 6:14 AM
Under Texas law this was an arrestable offense. The Supremes stated that is was up to the states to limit the powers of the police(loose translation). I urge everyone to learn what powers your local law enforcement officials are granted and work to limit them as much as posssible. Too many freedoms are restricted in the name of public safety and crime control. My rant for the day.
History Repeats Its Self, why do we Not think about that!Stickers
Apr 26, 2001 7:35 AM
Seems like the majority of folks here are living in the USA. A free country. Well, where I live, one may be arrested for Sleeping in ones automobile while parked in a residental neighborhood. Now, is that freedom. Could never be you, right? Think about how many freedoms we have already voted away. Think of our legal system. Just please, Think! We are at the discretion of the arresting officer! Always have been. Be careful out there. Peace
Let's look at the cop's side of thisDog
Apr 26, 2001 7:46 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb and try to portray the cop's side of this dispute.

First, the cop had reason to stop her. Seat belt violations are misdemeanors in Texas. The cop may have some discretion, but she was breaking the law. She was, at least arguably pursuant to the stated public policy, endangering not only herself but her children as well. Gee whiz, people, I've seen countless cyclists berate others for not wearing helmts, yet there is implicit in some of the arguments here an acceptable of this mother allowing her children to ride unbelted. That seems a little hypocritical. Where is the outcry to protect the children?

Further, and maybe most importantly, the woman had no identification. Texas law permits booking if a driver has no I.D. She was breaking the law by driving without her license, stolen or not. While this is stretching it, indeed, for all the cop knew, this woman was not who she purported to be, but was instead a kidnapper making off with a stolen van and the children inside. If he had NOT arrested her, and had that been true, then he gets sued by the true mother of the children for letting the woman escape. A no win situation. To protect himself, the children, or for whatever other reason, the cop followed the law and procedures he was supposed to. That, really, is the bottom line. She broke the law, not the cop.

Now, while I'm admittedly fairly conservative, I, too, have been wrongfully arrested and know what that's like (I'd rather not get in to it, though). It's very disturbing, and does make you doubt the good intentions of law enforcement at times. Nonetheless, this one was by the book. I think he did the right thing.

Further, where is the outcry about the over-litigious society? This was about a lawsuit brought by the woman and her husband, not the underlying misdemeanor action. The officer followed the law, and accordingly she was minimally detained, with no abuse or violations of the law. She was wrong in what she did, and then wrong to sue. IMHO.

Finally, don't make this out to be more than it is. Cops aren't inclined nor do they have the time to be arresting cyclists for riding two abreast or not all the way to the right. That's a slippery slope argument that has not been borne out by reality. Bottom line is, just abide by the law, and you have nothing to worry about.

Doug
You have got to be kidding!!!!!Krusty
Apr 26, 2001 9:00 AM
"Bottom line is, just abide by the law, and you have nothing to worry about." Doug, are you also are niave, or just an affluent white and live in a sheltered cozy little world?

I live in Jacksonville, Fl. Here there is a Federal investgation going on about the corruption in the police dept. It seems like a bunch of cops were dealing drugs (while in uniform and in their cop cars) kidnaping, and murdering. At least a handfull of cops are under arrest waiting trial.

Just last week the cops got a call from an alarm company for a residential alarm late at night. The cops show up at the wrong house, find the doors locked, with all the lights out.(duh! most people lock-up and have lights out while sleeping). They quietly walked around the house to investigate. There was an open window about 7 feet up. The cop did not want to climb in, so he put his attack dog in. The attack dog then attacked the 10 year old girl sleeping in bed. The parents run into their daughters bedroom, turn on the lights and see blood all over the bed and the dog chomped down on her thigh.

Over and over again we read about cops pulling people over because their skin color is not white.

Doug, where have you been? What about all the corruption with the cops in LA? What about that 19 y/o in NYC, that got hit with 49 bullets? What just happened in Cincinnati?

"Bottom line is, just abide by the law, and you have nothing to worry about." ---- YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING !!!!!!
"Over and over again ..."Breck
Apr 26, 2001 10:00 AM
This is true and even the Black cops do this to Blacks as Racial Profiling is a tool cops, etc. do and there is much public and otherwise debate about this issue, etc. in all cities.

So in general, who do you call if you have a problem with the "peace", bank robberies, rapes, muggings, drunk drivers, road rage, true break in's to harm you and your family, some one trying to kill you for what reason?, etc., etc. Would you make a good cop and do the right thing always? Do you want to be a good cop and deal with the truly criminal element? What is the answer here in this mostly democratic society?

I understood your message and have lived in South Dallas in a racially mixed neighborhood back in the 1950's (me being a white kid) & seen some of what you describe even back then but it got no press & TV was yet to be common. Maybe no cheers for some.

cheers anywho for what it' worth
you are a lucky man.ishmael
Apr 26, 2001 11:40 AM
its all been borne out by reality, dont kid yourself...my story is one of the happier...there are assshole cops out there... i dont make a point of berating cops and it annoys me when people do but your post asked for it...ill give you my story of abuse..i was riding around and pulled over a good long distance away from a cop arresting someone for what looked like drunk driving...he said beat it, i said im not doing anything wrong just sitting on the side of the road..next thing im in jail with no phone call or food for 10 hours (i later learned from someone else in there with me that if you tap the glass you stay another 3 hours)..it was supposedly public intoxication..id had 3 beers, and asked for a breathalizer..legally they can throw you in the can if you just look funny, they dont need a breathalizer and dont offer one...should i have not stopped on the side of the road...
Let's look at the cop's side of thismike mcmahon
Apr 26, 2001 12:33 PM
First, you are correct that the cop had legal cause to pull her over. She and her kids should have been belted. No argument there.

Second, it's true that she had no identification. However, this is small town Texas and the cop knows the woman. There is absolutely no indication that the arrest had anything to do with the suspicion that she was up to foul play with the kids. In fact the case makes clear that the welfare of the kids wasn't high on this cop's mind. Who says the cop followed the procedures he was supposed to follow? Even those in the majority on the Supreme Court admit that the cop did not exercise good judgment.

Third, she did seek damages. However, regardless of her motivation, the more important issue for the rest of us is that a different Supreme Court decision would have deterred this type of police behavior in the future by clearly stating that such behavior violates the Fourth Amendment. Over-litigious? Yes, but schools were desegregated through litigation, for example. When local, state, or federal officials violate constitutional rights, litigation is often the only way to curb future abuses.

Finally, "most cops aren't inclined nor do they have the time to be arresting" otherwise law-abiding mothers who fail to belt their children for a short ride from the park. However, this decision tells the police that they can haul anyone off to jail for any suspected offense. The ruling will almost certainly not lead to a large increase in the number of arrests for infractions punishable only by fine. However, it will result in some increase. God forbid you or one of your family members is that random person whose face a cop does not like for some reason.
agree in partDog
Apr 26, 2001 12:55 PM
Not sure the fact was that the cop knew the woman; I believe the opinion says that he had pulled her over once before under suspicion that a child was not belted, but in fact it was that time. "n1 Turek had previously stopped Atwater for what he had thought was a seatbelt violation, but had realized that Atwater's son, although seated on the vehicle's armrest, was in fact belted in. Atwater acknowledged that her son's seating position was unsafe, and Turek issued a verbal warning. See Record 379."

There may well be many factors we don't know about. Maybe this cop has been at the scene of accidents where unbelted children have been killed exiting cars through the windshields. Maybe there has been public outcry there for the cops not enforceing the seatbelt laws, particularly for children. I don't know, but both scenarios are very realistic. Or, maybe this cop just cares more about children than he worries about getting sued. Maybe he believed that this mother was endangering her children, and maybe he needed to put a stop to the situation right then and there.

Rights can be vindicated or determined without seeking damages. School desegregation, for example, is accomplished by issuance of injunctions, not necessarily payment of damages (maybe attorney fees, though).

Like I said, I was wrongfully arrested one time, in Kansas City, by a cop having a very bad day. Get this irony -- I made a complaint to the local Office of Citizens Complaints (not seeking damages, purely internal), and it was the cop who threatened to sue me! I did not sue. So, yes, I know EXACTLY what it feels like - been there.

Don't forget, also, that states or local entities are free to pass their own legislation dictating when arrests are permitted. If this concerns you, do some lobbying.

Doug
Litigious Society, Deep Pockets ... my takeBreck
Apr 26, 2001 9:38 AM
To put it very bluntly and very short(for mee) my take is that there are those few today want to retire early off Deep Pockets law suits brought about when the deem they are un-justly wronged. That is make the same mistakes we all make but see the $$$ angle in it. So Companies fold, public places closed, billions are spent shared by "you and me", products and over-safety are 'built-in" to our bikes, etc., and we all suffer because of that ONE incident where a few individuals make out. Gone are the Daze of respectful law-abiding responsible citizens (knowing the Law can't neatly fit same as an off the shelf bike) for their own (dumb) actions or lack thereof.

Cheers to those know the difference and are un-selfish bout it and don't screw their fellow man for truly personal gain. I know a few individuals in this cat. sunning on the beach with no real health or otherwise probs. from their Deep Pockets law suits.

EG's:
*kid dives into shallow beach & parents sue ... public lakes shut down,
skate arenas shut down, any high liability rides ,etc. shut down ...70's
*kid falls thru skylight attempt to burglarize high school ... injured,
parents sue
*man attempts suicide on RR tracks, fails with only arm missing ...sues
*insert ... person not seat belted, gets bad treatment .... sues
*guy thinks the proper way to stop the chain saw id grab the bar, sues
...don't laugh, it cost you money & makes it a b!tch to start the saw
* breast transplant, IUD failure ...sue & retire
*etc's.

Just my take, and have come back from mowing the south forty with the tractor with umteen safety devices on it. Get off the seat and it stops running. Damn, how did grandpap ever get the chores done :p)-old texan lived a long life.

'Bye' the way, it hasn't come up yet but the slogan "Don't Mess with Texas" was an anti-liter campaign but could just as well apply to "incidentals" in Texas. Back in 1983 worked in Houston with some Californios & they were exceedingly impressed with the up-grade of manners their kids in school (transferred from California) there attained.
Of course the kids were unhappy.

the lawyers are smilin' ... no offense doug :))

The "count's" going up as our blood pressure rises. Good thing we bikers are Xtra fit fer you Shimano off-roaders. Mee, I raise Koi to keep the pulse down ... they can live to be 125, my resting pulse rate.

Next time you are wrongly-wronged, get a lawyer & retire early ...ride the bike in Maui, etc. And you know you are wronged a lott.

no "offense" to anyone and their other-side-of-the-coin takes, and there are Exceptions I will grant you.
cheers as always
she was not seeking damages thoughRobO
Apr 26, 2001 10:09 AM
This case is not about how much money she was asking for, she was saying this is not legal/should not be legal. When she wins, then this is not legal. The supreme court only hears cases involving constitution questions, they don't give damages. Unfortunatly she did not win, so this is legal.
This ruling basically nullifies the 4th amendment. All the legislature has to do is to write every law so that you can be arrested, then any crime will allow you to be searched.
wrong; read the opinionDog
Apr 26, 2001 10:32 AM
Here is a quote from the opinion:

"Atwater and her husband, petitioner Michael Haas, filed suit in a Texas state court under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 against Turek and respondents City of Lago Vista and Chief of Police Frank Miller. So far as concerns us, petitioners (whom we will simply call Atwater) [*15] alleged that respondents (for simplicity, the City) had violated Atwater's Fourth Amendment "right to be free from unreasonable seizure," App. 23, and sought compensatory and punitive damages."

The last 5 words there tell it all. She wanted not only money for her personal damages, but money to punish the public entity, too.

Yes, the Supreme Court does not usually award damages. However, they do decide whether lower court decisions awarding or denying awards for damages are lawful.

Doug
That's why didn't use "her" as an eg.Breck
Apr 26, 2001 10:34 AM
& understand your message. Believe me have been on the wrong side of the Law plenty when was growing up & Texas Judge finally said Marine Corp. 0r...! I would skin my kids for doing half what I did back then. But never hurt anyone or destroyed (too much) property before got straightened out courtesy of Uncle Sam and your tax dollars :)

Hopefully "democracy" marches on, the changing face of a free society.

cheers
Consider this....DINOSAUR
Apr 26, 2001 9:46 AM
This thread started because of a Supreme Court ruling in Texas. It had nothing to do about cycling, but as long as we are off topic consider this:

A few have made adverse statements about unfortunate incidents with the men in blue. Thus they have branded all cops as being a-holes, jerks, and so on. There has been a lot of discussion lately regarding racial profiling. People do not like to be categorized because of the color of their skin, the length of their hair, the type of car they drive etc. But then why codemn all Police Officers? A few of you are putting all cops in the same nutshell. How about considering that there are good cops and bad cops. Just as there are bad dentists, auto mechanics, doctors, carpenters, plumbers and so on. Base people on their own merit. Just because you have had a bad experience with a cop, doesn't label all cops as jerks. Everyone should be treated with respect and consideration without regard for their ethnic group of just because they happen to wear a uniform and pack a gun for a living.

For 27 years I never told anyone what I did for a living. I did not want to hear all the rants about cops. Now that I am a retired cop and made it to retirement without being fired (a feat in itself), I am proud to say that I am a retired cop. Most people have no idea of the emotional stress that comes with police work. Sad to say the most stress comes not from the public, or the inherit danger that comes with the occupation, but from a few in upper management who forgot what is was like to be a street cop. Also from all the lamebrain laws that are passed and Police Officers have an obligation to enforce. Disregarding the fact that in some instances the Police Officer doens't necessarlily agree with the law he is required to uphold.
Not all cops are badHershel Krustofski
Apr 26, 2001 11:28 AM
Dinosaur, I certainly did not mean to imply that all cops are bad. I believe most are good. But we agree that there are bad ones.
My original post was about the Supreme Court ruling and the law, not about cops.
Not all cops are badDINOSAUR
Apr 26, 2001 11:54 AM
Thanks, I should have been more clear, I was speaking of a few of the posts that followed yours:

The Rodney King incident and the O.J. Simpson trial changed the publics outlook on law enforcement for years to come. I gotta admit that the luster of police work changed a lot over the past few years.
A few bad apples and the trust for police in general was gone. Probably one of the reasons for me taking an early retirement and screwing myself out of $500 bucks a month.

Anyway, I'm retired. I have to watch my rearview mirror just like anyone else, especially when I take my old classic mopar out for a cruise.

Dinosaur (ie: someone who is out of step with time in the current world)

Peace
CHPmike mcmahon
Apr 27, 2001 12:02 PM
Dino: If I remember correctly you're retired CHP. Although nobody likes seeing CHP in the rearview mirror, CHP officers seem to enjoy a generally favorable impression among the public, at least compared to others like LAPD. Maybe this is due in part to the fact that our experiences with CHP are somewhat more limited: CHP is typically enforcing the traffic laws on state highways and not, for example, arresting people on suspicion of committing crimes outside the officer's presence. Maybe it's due in part to the goodwill created by John and Ponch. ;-) I've taken depositions of numerous peace officers and have *generally* found CHP officers to be more cooperative, courteous, and helpful than municipal police officers. This is especially true of CHP officers involved in Multidisciplinary Accident Investigation Teams (MAIT). In my 22+ years of driving in California, the majority of my (few) tickets have come from CHP officers for speeding on freeways. Knowing that I deserve more tickets than I get, I smile and say "thanks" to a CHP officer after signing my name to the agreement to appear portion of the ticket. Maybe the relatively few number of tickets is directly related to the fact that the same number of CHP officers are on CA highways as were 30 years ago (at least that's what I read recently). When I see some of the morons who are driving on our highways, I really appreciate the CHP.
CHPDinosaur
Apr 27, 2001 5:37 PM
Yes, I am retired CHP. The CHP is basically a traffic enforcement agency, however they have ventured out into other avenues of law enforcement. I think the reason that the CHP has a good public image is because they are very strict and hold their officer's to very high standards. They do not tolorate any type of discourtesy (I've been accused of that myself a few times). They are understaffed, have been for years. The paper work is 90% of the job. They have trouble recruiting, no one wants to pursue a career in law enforcement anymore. Also you usually start off your career in the L.A. or the S.F. bay area. It makes it tough for a young family with the cost of housing. Also it is very hard to find a qualified person who has not experimented with drugs.
It was a great career for me, I worked in five different areas in the state, from the high desert, the pacific coast, the bay area, and the sierra nevada foothills. I never believed in my wildest dreams that I would miss it. Basically I got tired of chasing tail lights and putting up with drunks.
I do a lot of my riding on my old beat. I go by places I worked wrecks and wrote zillions of tickets. Also a thanks to the man upstairs for allowing me to make it to retirement without getting shot, runover, fired, disabled, or going crazy (or crazier).
I wish I would have wrote a journal. I have lots of funny stories. No sense of humor when you are a cop, and your a goner.
Wow this is starting to sound like a recruiting ad for the CHP. Times have changed though, the public can be downright nasty at times. Also the work is very negative. Running and cycling provided me with an outlet, or else I would have gone crazy for sure.
Yep, retirement is great. I like to think that I earned it....
Ashamed!keith m.
Apr 26, 2001 11:31 AM
I think that all of us who are white and male should be ashamed of ourselves for even being alive. Just kidding. I would venture to guess that most blacks who live in poor and gang related neighborhoods fear other blacks more than they do white people in general. There is more black on black crime including violence and murder than any white on black crime. It's time to drop the reverends like Jackson and Sharpton and all the evil anti-white racism and live together (ride together)without trying to divide each other by race or gender. let's reach out to each other according to economic status, without seeing a person's skin color first.
Consider this....Skip
Apr 26, 2001 9:05 PM
I agree, there is good and bad in all professions; higher in some, lower in others; but I'll bet more people here, as well as nationwide can point to more incidents (personal, friends, relatives, etc.) of what they would refer to as "bad cops" than "bad dentists", "bad Dr.'s", "bad plumbers, etc. And, I don't personally know any Dr's or dentists that intentially did harm to someone, "planted" disease in someone, hid behind their badge, or lied, but I'm sure they're out there. Morals, ethics, sense of right and wrong, etc. are not limited to or coveted by any one profession.

I too, as has been mentioned by many in this thread, know several guys that went into law enforcement for the macho image, being able to have the "law" on their side, so that they can be above the law (great movie BTW, with that title - Steven Segal), to speed, abuse and hide behind their shield, cause physical harm to a person (many predjudice reasons - gay, black, hispanic, jews, etc.; drunk, take out their personal lifes frustrations, etc.) including murder, plant evidence, spouse abuse (I forget the national numbers, but cops are much more likely to engage in spouse abuse than the national average), etc., etc. against us "maggots" of society. Sure, they are undoubtedly the exception, not the norm, but I bet all police officers know many that fit into this catagory, that possess these qualities, that have looked the other way, not to see or acknowledge the abuse because of their "brotherhood", to protect their own. To those that turn the blind eye to such abuse, and not take action to correct it, I say you are just as guilty as those that abuse.
Consider this....Dinosaur
Apr 27, 2001 10:13 PM
Skip,

I read your post a couple of times, there is some truth in what you say. Police are a refection of society. Yes, they should be held to a higher standard than the norm. Most cops are dedicated, hard working, honest people. I've known a few "bad apples" from different departments, they seldom make it to retirement, they usually get fired somewhere down the road. My point was to judge everyone based on their own merit. You can't understand what it was like to have lost a fellow comrade who was shot to death, then stop someone a few days later for a traffic violation and have the person say "I'm glad the cop was shot, I wish it was you". Or to arrest some guy for drunk driving who just took out a whole family and listen to his verbal baiting and abuse for 45 minutes while you transport him to jail. Yes, all this stuff goes with the job. "If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen". The thing I enjoyed most about the job was being able to maintain control and disciplining myself not to drop to the level of the people (or some of the people) I dealt with.
I guess this can relate to cycling, as cycling provided me with an outlet to vent. It was better to take out my frustrations out cranking on my road bike than beating someguy over the head with my baton. Then again, it's a different world out there. I couldn't relate to most new officers, they were on a different wave length. I was referred to as a "dinosaur" (out of step with the times).
As I mentioned before, I wish I would have kept a journal. I could write some of my "war stories" and become another Joseph Wambaugh.
It's a bad world out there, most folks don't have any idea how bad it really is. Now I have to worry about bringing up my teenage daughter, we can't let her out of our sight.
I think the answer is raising the standard for police, better training, better pay, perhaps better supervision (it all starts at the top).
I don't know where I'm going with this, I'm tired, but I thought I should say something.
Maybe someday we could go for a ride on the island and discuss all this stuff. Actually I'm sick and tired of talking about cop stuff, I can't stand to watch the T.V. shows or movies portraying anything related to police work. I'm done, finished. I did my time in hell and now I can sit back and let someone else carry the load.
I'm going to bed, hard ride today, I'm sore and I need my purple dinosaur blanket.
Take care
Ed (Dino)
A good word for a retired coptommyb
Apr 28, 2001 12:29 AM
Ed (Dino),

I grew up in the south side of Chicago, a notoriously bad place to be a cop. I had several run-ins with the local beat cops from the precinct, and it upset me when they confiscated my beer, but I always had the utmost respect for them. My best friend's dad was killed in the line of duty. Like the vast majority of the population, I am grateful that you and your kind do the job you do (did). Whatever you're paid, it's not enough. Don't let the few jerks yelling F**K THE COPS get to you.

BTW, there was a long thread about donuts a week or so ago. I find it interesting that a retired cop didn't post any kind of reply. You would think...
(Just funnin' with ya.)
Donuts....Dinosaur
Apr 28, 2001 7:57 AM
Old fashioned glazed, or maple, yum yum. I think I entered a new stage in the art of discipline when I walked into a donut shop about 25 years ago and thought to myself, "I don't need this stuff, I can live without it". Sadly, I do fall off the wagon once and a while, I try to restrain from eating sweets. I finally got my lovely wife to stop baking all the little goodies. If it isn't in the house, you can't eat it.
Thanks for your comments. Truth is my flame went out about six years ago. I got to the point where I didn't enjoy what I was doing anymore. I tried an office job, the hours were nice, but dealing with people on the phone was even worse than dealing with them on the street. People tend to say things they wouldn't if they were face to face (sort of like the internet). It has to be one of the hardest jobs in the world. I could go on and on, yes there are bad cops, they make it hard for the majority of honest cops. I guess it could relate as to riding a stage at the TDF. You don't know what it is like untill you have been there. I guess we are lucky as we can discuss stuff like this, try bad mouthing the government or police in China. We are lucky to live in this country. T.V. and the movies have dramatized police work into something it isn't. Most of the time you are bored out of your mind with routine calls, then one day when you feel like you should have stayed in bed all day and pulled the covers over your head you will get called to a major crime/accident. Usually at a time when you don't feel like dealing with anything or anybody.
Anyway, I think I have beat this to death. I'm not going to change anyones mind over the internet. Think I'll go 10-10 (police code for "off duty") and give it a rest....
Adam 12 is 10-10
Consider this....Skip
Apr 28, 2001 10:48 AM
I agree, it's a hard and often a thankless job - I could surely never do it, not for very long anyway. The mental toll has got to be, often, unbearable. My dad was a cop for many summers - second job when teaching let out for the summer. Wasn't in LA, or NY, but they still had their problems. (Side note, I can remember dad having to come home to unlock the handcuffs that I had put on, but couldn't get off, they seemed to only get tighter - Ha!). I can only imagine the frustration you, and all officers must feel to have to deal with drunks, drug abusers, domestics, gangs, etc., etc. day in and day out- esp. when they're probably back on the street before the ink is dry on the paper work - like I said, I could never do it. These "good cops", that can and do deal with this, and not let it affect them are wonderful. I just have seen to many friends and acquaintences, guys at the gym, and clients that go into law enforcement to hide behind the badge, to abuse the public, or some sector, in whatever way they choose, for their own personal agenda. They may not last long, but how many innocent people have to feel their wrath in the mean time. Many jobs have alot of stress, take aircraft controllers, yet I don't believe they would intentially put two planes on a collison course if they had a bad day. True, it is not a perfect world. I wish I could design some contraption/apparatus that you guys could use to fire a "beam" that would inactivate a vehicle - so as to do away with high speed chases (I know letting the perp get away with a crime would not set a great precidence, but why make a bad situation worse by risking injury, and death to the general public), and all the innocent bystanders (pedestrian, cyclists, motorists) becoming victims of crashes. Enough of my rant. Cheers.

Skip
Thanks Skip...Dinosaur
Apr 28, 2001 11:42 AM
Thanks Skip, you covered it well. As a sidenote neither of my grown sons had a desire to go into police work. I guess they saw what it did to me! Anyway, I'm glad that I'm retired. I don't know if I would want to do it over again. And I would not want to be a new officer in this modern world.
My dream after our daughter graduates from high school (in three years) is to move to a warmer climate (possibly Hawaii). Maybe I'll look you up and we can go for a ride together.
Cheers
Dino
Thanks Skip...Skip
Apr 28, 2001 1:54 PM
If you should move here to Hawaii, or just come to vacation, please do look me up. I'd be more than happy to play tour guide. Before buying or moving, be sure to do the research about our ailing economy, cost of living (regular has been $2.02, but will probably increase to reflect the mainland's summer increase), rainfall/area, etc. If I can be of any help, let me know.

Skip