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To all you Howard Roark's out there....(12 posts)

To all you Howard Roark's out there....David
Mar 25, 2001 1:06 PM
To you people who say "who cares what others think?" that is the most hypocritical statement I have ever heard. Who doesn't care?? Anyone who says they don't is just being ignorant and dishonest. So YES, I care if people think Lizard Skins are taboo, and YES I think it's important that "when in Rome, do as the Romans."

ps Howard Roark is the main character of Ayn Rand's Fountainhead.
Cultural Issues...Brian B.
Mar 25, 2001 4:42 PM
Think about this, for a second, or a minute, or an hour... It's one thing to want to fit in to a culture or environment, socially and personally. That's what "when in Rome, do as Romans do" is all about. It's another thing to take tiny little bits of a cultural trend and translate them into personal and moral issues.
Generally, if everyone around you has certain norms they find acceptable, perhaps you should go along. I.E., we don't make racist statements, kill people, run around looting and pillaging, or make asses of ourselves in other fashions....
But you've taken biking and bike culture and made it into way more than it really is. Who could possibly care if people like to put a small lycra and neoprene wrap around one chainstay?
It is SO trivial. If you want to put it there, go ahead. If it protects your paint and quiets the chain slap, go ahead. If the pro riders don't use 'em in the TDF, does that make them less valuable? Perhaps, but how does that affect you?
Now tell me, how is this hypocritical? How am I now ignorant and dishonest? I say, who cares if Lizard Skins are taboo on road bikes? I've got one on the mountain bike, and I like it.
Please, explain to me why this makes me hypocritical, and not simply reasonable.
-Brian B.
Cultural Issues...roadie
Mar 25, 2001 5:42 PM
Read David's post more carefully Brian. He never said that you are being a hypocrite for saying who cares if Lizard Skins are taboo. He said you are being a hypocrite by stating "Who cares what other people think?" He also never said you were ignorant or dishonest for saying Lizard Skins are trivial. He said whoever says "Who cares what other people think" are being dishonest. Don't try to start a flame war by blowing things out of proportion.
re: To all you Howard Roark's out there....Duane Gran
Mar 26, 2001 3:50 AM
I believe when people say this they are encouraging the person to do their own thing in spite of the social pressure. Most time social pressure doesn't push people in a positive way, but instead pushes them to conform and be comfortable. Athletic pursuits are not about maximizing your comfort zone or else we would all be sitting in the couch. I have personally been glad to hear a few times from people to not stress over some issue which is ultimately minor.

I encourage anyone who find shaving their legs repulsive to not do it. It is irrelevant.

I encourage people to buy and ride whatever bike they want, even if some snob may think they don't deserve to ride record or dura ace, for example.

I encourage people to wear warm clothes even if it covers up their team clothing... avoiding injury is more important than promoting the team name.

I generally encourage people to do any damn thing they want to do that makes them happy on a bike, as long as it doesn't endanger anyone else.

(btw, I have read the Fountainhead and am rather fond of Howard Roark)
ActuallyRed
Mar 26, 2001 12:45 PM
To you people who say "who cares what others think?" that is the most hypocritical statement I have ever heard.

Actually, THAT is the most ignorant statement i've ever heard.

If you spend your whole life agonizing over what everyone else thinks of you, it'll be a short, unhappy life.

Go back to pretending to be what you're not just so you can impress people who aren't you.
ActuallyJohnH
Mar 26, 2001 2:00 PM
Excuse me, but I didn't see David "agonizing" about anything. He asked if people consider Lizard Skins to be taboo, and that's it! This is similar to say a guy wanting to know if it's ok not to wear a tux to the prom! It is crucial to be socially acceptable, and to fit in with society in order to survive in society. Sure Lizard Skins or a tux at the prom aren't very important, but it can make a difference, and it is none of our business to tell people otherwise.
You're going to make some doctor rich.Red
Mar 26, 2001 2:22 PM
Excuse me, but I didn't see David "agonizing" about anything.

Forgive me for taking liberties, but lets quote our friend here again.

And This, i remind you, is a direct quote.

"To you people who say "who cares what others think?" that is the most hypocritical statement I have ever heard."

Now, theres probably a bunch of ways one can take this. Well, maybe. I certainly can only see one way. He's saying that if you claim not to care what other people think you're a hypocrit. Now, maybe you interpreted this differently, so I'd love to hear your take on it's meaning.

Lets view another DIRECT quote here...
"Who doesn't care?? Anyone who says they don't is just being ignorant and dishonest."

So, again i'm taking liberties with interpretation and making wild assumptions here, but I believe our friend is saying that anyone who claims not to care what others think is either ignorant or dishonest. Again, please feel free to explain how I'm misreading this.

It's crucial to be socially acceptable?

Congrats. Heres the second most ignorant comment I've seen on this forum.

Maybe a doctor can help you with these insecurities you seem to be suffering from. Low self esteem can be hurtful, but it can be cured.

I wish you well with your treatment.
Jesus tap dancing ChristJerk
Mar 26, 2001 1:17 PM
For someone who is referencing Ayn Rand you really come across as a buffoon.

Listen dumplin', you wanna put Lizard Skins on your ride, do it. You want to engage in Roman Activities whilst strolling through Rome, go ahead. Just do the rest of us a favour and shut your friggin' pie-hole.

Jerk - and if you REALLY want, I could GLADY, HAPPILY, and ACCURATELY reference Hegel, Mill, Wittgenstein, Harris, Davis, Singer, Rand, Sartres, Camus, Pirsig, Russell, Quine, Rachels, Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Occam, Munsen, Kant, Austin, Berkeley, Aquinas, or Spinoza. Although I ain't so smart and book-learned on Spinoza, but then again, is anyone?
Jesus tap dancing ChristJohnH
Mar 26, 2001 1:56 PM
Jerk: don't be such a tool, geeze sometimes I'm ashamed that people like you are in this forum.
SCORE!Jerk
Mar 26, 2001 6:33 PM
I made you ashamed! Well don't that beat alland shuck my corn?!?

I just love lil' a$$wipes such as yourself, you provide endless hours of entertainment, the downside of the entertainment is that I practically give myself a blister on my thumb from hitting "delete" on the keyboard for your every "html-masterbation", but hey a blister is a small price to pay for such rollicking fun and hi-jinx.

Jerk
degrees, not absolutesDog
Mar 26, 2001 3:58 PM
To a degree, everyone but the most sociopathic hermit or brain dead cares what other people think. You can't live among other people and not do so.

But, we tend to value individualism and independence, too. I'd love to see someone ride a bike painted pink with purple flowers all over it. I don't choose to, but the point is, there are certain ranges of behavior that are acceptable, and sometimes going a little behond the ranges is cool, too.

The tone of my thinking is not to care what other people think, but I sure as heck do care what they think (e.g., I certainly can't ride naked!). But, it's the attitude that we are talking about here, not a strict rule. It's not meant to be literal nor universally applied. In other words, the "don't care what other people think" phrase really means "live on the edge a little," or "it ain't important what people think on this matter." -- don't you think?

Doug
Maybe more like a process ofdklein
Mar 27, 2001 6:50 AM
first caring what the others may think and then not caring, or otherwise. We "care" (I like the choice of word, different thought though) what others think to the degree that it may be benefit one's self (or a group), that's the nature of "accepts criticism well" versus "dosn't take criticism well", I care what others think to the degree that I take it under consideration, and then if it turns out I don't consider what others think of value, I no longer care about what they thought. It's simply a judgment call (hopefully w/o being judgemental), and trying to balance another persons perspective with one's own. Many years ago I learned an important lesson, I was watching Sesame Street and...

p.s. Lizard Skins...?