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listen to this crap(16 posts)

listen to this craphumunuku
Jan 7, 2002 4:19 PM
so like i drive 3.5 hours in the snow (very bad roads) to a cross race, pay $15 to enter the "A" race, race in super sloppy (but very fun) conditions, win the race....and what do i get????? 8 power gels....geeee thanks

i guess the fun per dollar ratio was high, but a better prize would have been nice. oh well, never expect anything.
Also, no support for worlds crossers!wspokes
Jan 8, 2002 4:56 AM
Years ago in the early 90s I remember when cross was just starting to pop up again in Pennsylvania. they had the Pa state championships on the first weekend of december in Scranton...awesome cross course in the snow and cold. I remember 3rd place was $10, 2nd was $15, and first $20 or similar amounts. I think 8 powergels might add up to or around that amount. Like the italics above say, don't expect much of anything and when you get something, you'll feel a whole lot better! While you are noting it, the Worlds Cross team is scrounging to even get funding to go to the WOrlds...These are the elite Crossers' we have to offer the world and there is no support to even send them!!
ask yourself this, why do you race?climbo
Jan 8, 2002 5:48 AM
do you do it for the fun or the money? If it's the money and you can win A races, move to the NE, most races have minimum $1,000 for A races so you'd be getting $200+ for a win. Where are you living/racing?
listen to WHO'S crap?the mayor
Jan 8, 2002 6:07 AM
So....how much do you pay to win at the cross race YOU put on?
Spoiled?Wayne
Jan 8, 2002 6:44 AM
Having been personally involved in helping to promote some mtn and cross events, this issue of prize money always amazes me. For the vast majority of riders there isn't even a shot at winning money (most sport, "B" classes, often Master's and Juniors, sometimes even the women) so you have this "top club" of guys who benefit financially from everybody else racing for the fun of it and maybe a shot at some merchandise. Why do local hotshots deserve my money? I'd rather the promoter get it, afterall he's providing me with the oppurtunity to race. If you want big payouts get to the pros, have patience and view these local racers as your minor league experience on the way to the big time. If this is it, then be thankful you get anything at all, remember where that money is coming from, realize you're just a local yocal who's faster than the other local yocals, and fortunately you're involved in a sport that often lets you take some of their money. Cycling seems to me to be one of the only sports where on a local, grassroots level there is an expectation of payouts for the top performers.
Spoiled?humunuku
Jan 8, 2002 7:27 AM
i'm not spoiled, I'm just poor.
and whineynm
Jan 8, 2002 7:58 AM
Come to New England for some "A" racingCX bottom feeders
Jan 8, 2002 2:09 PM
Come over to NE for some "A" races, and unless you're national/world level, you won't have to worry about winning and getting stiffed. The flip side is, if you are still winning you won't have to worry about buying bikes, paying entry fees or the other annoying amateur crap. the rest of us race for the fun, left over GU packs and whatever other scraps we pick up.
re: listen to this crapflyweight
Jan 8, 2002 2:28 PM
In case someone forgot to tell you there's a recession on and the bike business has been hit hard by it. Also cyclocross isn't exactly major sport even within the cycling community.

Look at it from another perspective:
An organizer endures stacks of annoying paperwork (permits, insurance, etc), has to show up earlier to set up the course, spends time and money promoting the event, and misses out on the opportunity to race because they're too busy running the event. If they're **REAL** lucky they might make a couple of bucks. Chances are they'll barely break even. What do they get in return? Maybe a few thank-yous if they're lucky but most likely people bitching about prizes, lack of timely results, course design, etc, etc. Frankly it's amazing our sport exists at all!!! Be nice to the organizers, we wouldn't have much of a sport without them!
re: listen to this crapclimbo
Jan 9, 2002 5:10 AM
so true, out team pays or our own uniforms just so we can use the money to put on races each year. When we get flack it's not taken too well. Most racers/riders just don't know what it takes in time and money to put on a race. It's an investment in the sport that a few are willing to make.
The glory that is the promoter...TJeanloz
Jan 9, 2002 2:19 PM
Race promoters always try to pawn themselves off as doing some great service to the racing community, and I've never known one who didn't swear on his mother's grave that he lost money on every race he ever ran.

I'm here to say that I have been involved at the promotional level in several races over the years, and NOT ONE has ever lost money. We didn't make any beef about it- we were in it for the money (to support our collegiate team). We kept entry fees low ($8-$15), paid as much prize money as was feasible but didn't break the bank, and worked hard. The last part being the most operative- it's hard work. And that's where most promoters 'lose' money- they say to themselves, "if I were at my regular job, I would be making $20/hr, this race has taken 500 hours of my time and since I ONLY made $9,000 I lost my shirt..." It's retarded logic- promoters make money.
The glory that is the promoter...flyweight
Jan 9, 2002 3:33 PM
True they may not lose money but most of the ones I've known pretty much break even, especially in 'cross. Either way, we wouldn't have much of a sport without them and it is a lot of work.
Oh for the love of Pete! (warning, I have LOST my temper!)lonefrontranger
Jan 9, 2002 5:59 PM
Geez, if that wasn't one of the more arrogant posts I've heard lately. Not everyone charges $25 per entry and hands out nada for prize money like the ACA. Good for them, I say - maybe they'll actually make enough to encourage them to stay in business. Heaven knows there's no lack of participants at the events here.

We killed ourselves for four years to promote cross and road races in Ohio. We charged $10 - $15 and made sure everyone (including juniors, women and old guys) got a respectable prize list, on the average of $150 to $300 per cat for a 'cross or "spring training" road race, not counting series money, etc. We considered 100 participants per day a big event.

Not once did we ever make money, and I do mean NOT ONCE. We designed the series and the events to break even, so every dollar we came out ahead with was put back into the next event's prize list, printing / advertising budget, or earnest money to the parks & recreation board for the various messes that bike racers tend to leave behind. When you factor in the psychological and physical wear and tear, it gets real old, real quick.

At the end of it all, we lost a lot. We lost our cost of gas money, web hosting, marketing, graphic design, database management and data entry. We lost our weekends by standing in the hot sun corner marshaling for six hours straight, or freezing in the cold rain behind a registration table. We lost work nights up till 1 AM figuring out who got 27th place to update the website so we wouldn't get nasty e-mails for three weeks afterwards. We lost our private time, our social lives, our friends, our fitness, our enthusiasm, our idealism, our patience and our tempers. We very nearly lost our relationship - and if you care to think that financially breaking even at that karmic cost is worth it, well, it certainly wasn't worth it to me, bucko.

So, after getting fed up with the whining, lack of appreciation and repeatedly having to beg, plead and threaten racers not to pee in people's front yards, antagonize drivers and the police by standing around in the roads by the dozens rambling on about their sprint for 8th place, holler obscenities at each other in front of the wealthy suburbanites who graciously allowed us to close down their neighborhood streets, not to mention constantly arguing with the same individuals every week who "forgot" their licenses, thought it was a joke to fill out waivers with BS info and/or wanted free entry despite doing nothing to deserve it, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera... well, there you have it, we got the hell out and moved to Boulder so we wouldn't really ever have to worry whether there'd be a bike race going on without us busting our asses to ensure it. Selfish? Well, why shouldn't we be - every other freaking bike racer is!

The funny thing is, we never dreamed of griping about the prize lists here - if it's a good enough event for Bobby Julich, Jon Vaughters, Alison Dunlap, Mari Holden or Christian Vandevelde (not to mention 450 other schmucks) to show up and test their mettle for $50 and a box of Powerbars, well I guess it's daggoned well good enough for my sorry self.

Grrrr
Cry me a river,TJeanloz
Jan 11, 2002 10:23 AM
My point is that a lot of promoters work really hard to put on races, and they only lose money when they have some kind of charitable heart. I'm not saying that every race is profitable- only that every race SHOULD be profitable. Headaches, for the most part, are self-inflicted by the promoters. They don't supply enough port-a-johns and then get mad when racers pee on people's lawns.

The problem really, is that promoting is a thankless job that some masochists like to take on. Promoters act like they're doing racers a huge favor- they aren't. How do the best races run? With a full club or team behind them, supplying volunteer manpower. Not some individual promoter who goes from venue to venue trying to make some cash. Why did our races always make money? Because we didn't set them up to fail, like so many promoters do, in an effort to make the race 'cool'.

That's another whole topic- you're a promoter, your options are: promote downtown criterium, or promote industrial park criterium. The same number of people will show up for both. Why do promoters choose downtown? Yes, it's cool, but recognize up front: You won't make much (any) money, and it will be a royal pain in the neck. Do bike races really need to be cool?
quarantine!loads
Jan 11, 2002 10:44 AM
foot in mouth disease is running rampant on the roadbikereview boards!
Another example,TJeanloz
Jan 11, 2002 1:18 PM
I know you were somewhat involved in the return of The Coal Miner's Classic last summer.

I don't imagine that lost money with CJ controlling the pursestrings...