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Is this steel real?...(12 posts)

Is this steel real?...TFerguson
Jan 28, 2004 6:28 PM
What's the story on Dedacciai Zero Uno steel? Super-light or tough long lasting?

Thanks,
TF
Good stuffNessism
Jan 28, 2004 7:53 PM
ZeroUno uses a high grade of steel that is similar to Columbus Nivacrom – approx. 175 ksi tensile strength if this means anything to you. The tubes come in a couple of size configurations with the most popular being conventional oversize diameters so builders can use commonly available lugs. The tubes top and down tube are butted .8/.5/.8 mm with fairly short butts; not as short as Zero or Foco, but short none the less. The .5 mm center section is a smidge thin for those that trash their bikes and pile stuff on top of them in the garage. For a normal self-respecting rider, they are more than robust enough assuming the rider isn't a Clydesdale type.

In my opinion, Zero Uno is a very nice middle of the road tubeset. The tubes have enough meat on them to stand up to heavy abuse without being overly flexi for riders of average build.

Good luck.

Ed

PS: My understanding is that Richard Sachs uses ZeroUno on a fair number of his frames. Need a higher endorsement than that?
re: Is this steel real?...t5rguy
Jan 28, 2004 9:36 PM
I believe Zero Uno is not produced anymore as such. The name now I believe is COM 12.5. That said, I have a frameset in Zero Uno, and an exact copy in Reynolds 753. Both are oversized tubing and fillet brazed. I find the ride of the 753 far better than the Zero Uno, which is a little harsh. Prompted me to put a carbon fork on it, which I would never do to the 753.
Also the Zero Uno seems fairly heavy: handweighing (blindfolded!) an old lugged SL/SP frame (bare) against the Zero Uno I'd say they weigh the same.
Still the Zero Uno makes for a nice and strong 'second' bike; but not the luxurious feel of the 753.
753 is all about luxury, and will be sorely missed IMHO.Spunout
Jan 29, 2004 5:54 AM
853 is stronger and lighter, but harsh. nm
MisnomerNessism
Jan 29, 2004 7:33 AM
The flexability of a steel tube is determined by the steels elasticity (modulus of elasticity to be exact) and a form factor (area moment of inertia). Key point here: ALL STEEL ALLOYS HAVE THE SAME MODULUS OF ELASTICITY. The form factor is the sole determining factor regarding how flexable a tube is.

High strength alloys can endure more stress so tubing manufactuers can make the tube thinner without risk of breaking the tube. Thin tubes ride smooth because of the form factor.

So the bottom line is that the 853 is not more harsh, nor is 753 more comfortable, due to the alloy.

753 is a very thin tubeset and thus the tubes flex a lot. 853 comes in a wide array of sizes so a builder can make a flexi or a stout frame depending on which exact tubes are used.

Lastly, 753 was a highly heat treated frame tube which would loose a great deal of it's strength if overheated. Because the tubes were so thin, they flexed a lot. Bottom line is that this tubeset was discontinued for good reason. An 853 tube drawn so similar dimensions will ride the same and be more fault tolerant to assembly issues.

Ed
853 is air hardeningt5rguy
Jan 29, 2004 9:00 AM
Maybe Nessism can comment on this property of 853 and True Temper S3. My builder disliked 853 because in his experience TIG welding 853 had a good chance of creating brittle welds, due to the air hardening properties.
Another insight from builders I know, is that Deda is a more pleasant supplier to work with than Columbus, who have difficulty delivering on time and as promised to small builders. A reason why some buidlers I know switched to Deda 100%. On the other hand, quality control at Columbus appears to be better. Any opinions? And what about True Temper?
So is S-3 and OX PlatinumMR_GRUMPY
Jan 29, 2004 12:27 PM
853 was the first generation of "air hardening" steels. Just about every manufacturer has gone with the idea. It's pretty hard to make a "bad" frame (prone to cracking) with the new steels, unless it's made by a total idiot.
So is S-3 and OX PlatinumNessism
Jan 29, 2004 1:23 PM
My understanding is that True Temper and Reynolds are the only manufacture's using "air hardening" alloys. Columbus and Dedacciai use alloys that are heat tolerant; they don't degrade in strength when welded as much as alloys of the past.

As far as air hardening alloys being bad, I don't think this is the case if handled properly. For example, cable stops are supposed to be silver brazed, not welded. If the stop is welded in place, a hard spot on the tube is developed which can cause a stress concentration – very bad.

Overall as have been stated many times previously on this board, it's the builder that counts more than the tubeset. Find someone you can trust and all is well.

Ed
Here is some stuff on S3Steve-O
Jan 29, 2004 1:46 PM
This custom builder seems to have been working with the S3 as long as anyone...

http://www.desperadocycles.com/S3/True_Temper_S3_Tubing_Profile_Info.htm

FWIW... I talked to a LBS owner who deals alot with Waterford (another company that has started to build with S3 quite a bit). He told me that S3 was the same as OX Platinum in metallic properties but the tubing was oversized and drawn thinner to make a lighter tubeset...
Yes, same steelMR_GRUMPY
Jan 29, 2004 5:47 PM
S-3 tubesets use a thin 1 1/2" downtube, while OX Platimun uses either 1 1/4" or 1 3/8" depending on usage. I think that the weight limit on S-3 tubesets is 180 pounds.
Waterford S-3 frames are 3 pounds or slightly less. OX Platinum frames are about 3.5 pounds. I think that a 3 pound steel frame will crash just as well as a 2.2 pound Aluminum frame. (Badly)
One last commentNessism
Jan 30, 2004 7:21 AM
The Dedacciai distributer in US is a guy named Joe Bringheil - http://www.bringheli.com Joe is a super nice guy and provides great service - one man business. His prices can't be beat either.

Columbus's US distributer on the other hand, Nova Cycle, is not as friendly to deal with. They don't want to deal with the little guys just building a sporatic frame or two and the prices are very high unless one has a wholesale license. Many US builders order their Columbus tubing from Ceeway in England. Great service and prices much lower than Nova - similar to Joe. http://www.framebuilding.com/

True Temper's US distributer is Henry James Bicycle. Excellent service but the prices are a little high in my opinion.

All the above listed manufactuers make good quality tubes. Ranking them, my opinion is that Columbus is best, Dedicciai second, and TT last. This opinion is based on working with a small sample size of tubes as a garage builder. Columbus tubes seem to come closer to listed specification compared to Dedacciai. I'm not sure how TT compares in this respect. True Temper tubes, in my experience, tend to vary more in terms of surface finish and straightness - basic quality issues? For example, the only truely bad tubes I have ever seen have been a True Temper seat stay that was wavy and a top tube that had some small out dents. There have also been some grumblings in the framebuilders forum regarding inconsistant metal hardness with the TT Platinum line. Based on my experiences, I believe these claims.

Just a little info based on my experiences.

Ed
One last commentt5rguy
Jan 30, 2004 8:37 AM
Interesting, with regard to Columbus and Deda, experiences in the US seem to be the same as in Europe!