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Going from DA to Record(22 posts)

Going from DA to RecordColton
Aug 28, 2003 8:12 AM
I'm in the process of collecting information on what extras I'll need to change out my 01' DA components to 03' Campy Record. I know I'll need a special ultradrive cassette to fit the Ksyrium freewheel, but what about any other items I may have overlooked? This will go onto a 01' Litespeed Vortex.
Thanks for any help you can give.
Why mess with perfection?pmf1
Aug 28, 2003 8:26 AM
Dura Ace is better. Everyone knows that.
Why mess with perfection?Colton
Aug 28, 2003 8:36 AM
You never know till you try!
I thought you meant the Vortex...TJeanloz
Aug 28, 2003 9:14 AM
The 2001 Vortex, in my humble opinion, embodies everything a bike should be. Best bike I've ever owned, and I've owned a lot of 'em.
Hmmm!the bull
Aug 28, 2003 1:44 PM
If it is so perfect why are they going to 10 speed?
If this was the way of thinking I would still be riding Campy 7 speed right now.

Japanese.....cant invent anything.
Can only take an idea and TRY to make it better or the same for less money by using plastic!
they invented the chin operated light switch for instance nmdivve
Aug 28, 2003 2:41 PM
yep, that's how they are dominating the electronics world.PeterRider
Aug 28, 2003 4:20 PM
Was it in the 70s ? or the 80s ? Japanese people became #1 in electronics not by inventing stuff, but by buying patents, improving the products a bit, and making a new patent out of it.

Couldn't agree more !!!!northcoast
Aug 28, 2003 4:44 PM
I work with "them" on a daily basis. They are fantastic at taking something that already exists and improving it or tweaking it a little. They will however not do anything original. It is way too big of a risk to do something original. Of course I am generalizing, but in my experience this is true.

For that reason I won't buy bike parts from Shimano. If we don't support the real bike innovators what will we do when they are gone? We always just kind of assume Campy will be around forever, but if everyone is riding Shimano because of price or ignorance (just taking whatever comes on thier bike) Campy might one day disappear.......
Facts vs. OpinionGalibier
Aug 29, 2003 5:31 AM
Two problems with your theory: (1) Shimano has far more bike-related patents than does Campagnolo (477 versus 45), and (2) Shimano has been making bicycle coomponents longer than Campagnolo (since 1921 versus 1933).
Facts!the bull
Aug 29, 2003 8:37 AM
"Two problems with your theory!"
Who are you talking about?
These are good facts but I think youre playing handball in a court all by yourself.
Read the topics better!
My Facts...northcoast
Aug 29, 2003 9:34 AM
I'm just speaking from my experience. I don't know about the details of Shimano's patents. Are they really innovations or just an addition to another patent or a design improvement or for that matter just a design patent that covers a look or a curve of a product? You can get a patent on a bolt if you want to invest the time, but how innovative is that? I don't think the numbers mean anything.

We sent over a prototype for a tradeshow. The next year, the same item was available from a competitor. The funny thing is there were some mistakes on the prototype design we sent. Things on the inside that didn't show but weren't supposed to be there. On the competitors product, they had these same mistakes. They copied the exact product. Heck go to an industrial tradeshow and you'll be surprised by the Japanese and other Asian company members there like paparazzi taking photos of your products from every conceivable angle possible.

Why would you want to support industry like this???

Another example is the design of the Lexus LS 400 rear suspension......I was involved with that as well. Lexus could not get it right after several tries. Funny how it coincidentally turned out to be the exact rear suspension of the Mercedes they were trying to compete with. How would you feel if you spent millions on R and D and hired the best engineers and had someone knock off your product immediately? The crazy thing is that consumers support this type of activity by purchasing the cars. Really the consumer is being ripped off. Thinking they are driving around is something great when it is just a copy at almost the price of the original.

People need to think a little more with their purchases.

I've worked with a Japanese company directly and tried to develop new products for them, but they were hesitant to introduce them. Even though patentable they could not get past the risk of offering something new. This same company had no problem jumping on a new product once offered by a Western company. They just have a hard type being first. Maybe this was just the company I dealt with, but that is my experience.

I say again why would you want to support this??? Just for the price???

If you feel comfortable supporting this go for it, but sorry not me.
: ) nmthe bull
Aug 29, 2003 1:29 PM
Sounds like a cultural issuemoschika
Aug 29, 2003 4:53 PM
not that i'm an asian cultural expert but that philosophy seems be in line with my general experiences with asian culture through asian friends, japanese martial arts, western friends who've lived and worked in japan and korea, ideologies with sayings to the effect of a nail that sticks out, gets hammered down, unlike our ideology of the 'squeaky wheel gets the grease'.
Sounds like a cultural issuenorthcoast
Aug 29, 2003 6:14 PM
I think you are right. I think it is a cultural thing.

I hope I haven't come off as not liking Asians. As a matter of fact I still have many friends from my dealings there.

They make a lot of great stuff. Electronics, cameras, motorcycles, cars, even their bike parts are all good quality products. They have a great culture too. My Asian friends are all very loyal, respectable people that I am happy to know.

I'm just saying that with my experiences with their industrial practices, I'd rather support Campy.
Aug 29, 2003 6:07 PM

n 1: a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred; "first you must collect all the facts of the case" 2: a statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened; "he supported his argument with an impressive array of facts" 3: an event known to have happened or something known to have existed; "your fears have no basis in fact"; "how much of the story is fact and how much fiction is hard to tell" 4: a concept whose truth can be proved; "scientific hypotheses are not facts"

Industrial espionage exists at all levels, in all industries. It is up to the manufacturer/developer/designer to file for a patent before they release the new product. If there is no pantent process in progress, then those who brought the original to fruition are, how do you say, screwed. Is it right? No. Is it done? Oh yes. Patents also have a lifetime, so as soon as it runs out, someone else is allowed to replicate it. If a patented product is copied, royalties are paid to help offset the development expenses.

In the case mentioned involving Lexus 'stealing' a design, it was not stated if there was a patent on the original, and if so, were royalties paid. Chances are it was legit though.

Because you don't believe in copying designs and only the original should be used, are you still using downtube shifters with your Campy? Do you use a freewheel still? Do you use index shifting or still friction?

Shimano developed the freehub design in attempt to move the driveside bearings further to the outside of the hub. The also developed the STI system with the Rapidfire MTB components, and later to a road application. Index shifting was not a Campagnolo development. What Campy did develop was the quick release and the dual cog rear wheel (where one cog was on each side of the hub.) What other great contributions does Campy have? Nostalgia? That doesn't make riding more enjoyable.

A free market allows anyone to purchase what they want (legal issues aside) and if someone wants Brand-B products because of cost or performance, they should not be criticized. If another person purchases Brand-C because of an elitist attitude and an oversized bank account, they should not degrade another brand. I'm waiting for the day when CD box sets of The Byrds, Led Zeppilin, Cream, and other popular bands of the 60's are included with the purchase of a Campagnolo grouppo. Keep the dream alive. Live in the past.
Aug 30, 2003 9:23 AM
While I can't refute what you say about Shimano developments, I do think you are overlooking one BIG important topic.

You say industrial espionage exists at all levels and then move on (like it is no big deal). To me that is the issue. Many steal, but not all. Some do it a little and some do it a lot. I don't want to buy from a company or companies that has that as their chief method of product design. I have been involved in product design and seen the thefts of ideas I mentioned in earlier messages. That has shaped my buying philosophy.

A lot of my friends ride Shimano and that's fine with me. I never said that Shimano was junk or anything like that. I think that both Shimano and Campy work very well.

I am not criticizing or looking down on anyone's choice. I believe that in this market everyone has a choice. Along with that choice come some degree of responsibility and power. With our buying choice we reward the company we purchase from.

As I said before, I don't want to support their business practices and tell them with my purchase "Hey I really think you guys are fantastic and doing a great job :) " This isn't the biggest thing in the world here (just bike parts), in earlier messages I was trying to explain why I buy what I buy. Other people buy what they buy for their own reasons.

* Just another comment

While all your statements concerning patents and royalties are correct in a textbook world, they are way off in real world practical application. That is why espionage exists. Because companies don't want to respect patent protection or pay royalties. They'd rather steal it or just slightly try to design around it. A patent is not a big golden shield that protects the holder. Companies will constantly challenge it or copy it. A patent is only worth what you have in your bank account available to protect it in court.

Patent protection sounds great in theory. How good is that theory when you are a small company that has developed a unique product and had a huge giant steal it?

Now you are faced with a couple questions:

1 – Abandon your design (because it is already on the market). The giant company has great economies of scale and is able to deliver the product at a much lower price than you can. From a marketing perspective you are seen as a knock off since now you are offering your own product after them.

2 – Take them to court. Hope that you can somehow manage to stay in the game for 2 – 3 years while paying for all sorts of legal expenses. They have a legal budget of ??? and you have a legal budget of $5,000 that some how has now stretched to $10,000, $20,000, $30,000, ??? All this as the product you worked on for several years is not producing income for you. It is pretty difficult to develop new products, pay for employees and keep a roof over your children's head while trying to legally battle a giant. In the end if you can make it, you may win a judgement. Can you prove damages? What were your damages?

Oh yeah patent protection is great and for that matter so are the big companies that so faithfully respect patents.
Aug 30, 2003 9:51 AM
I'm not pointing a finger at Shimano exclusively. My dealings with large Asian industrial companies have been in the Areas of Automotive, Medical and Machine Tools. My experiences with those have shaped my beliefs about purchasing from other similar Asian companies i.e. Shimano.

Maybe I've unfairly judged them..personally I don't really think so. In the end I guess it is up to everyone to use their own best judgement.

Most important thing however is to just ride and have fun.
Couldn't agree more with your buying philosophy.................Synchronicity
Sep 1, 2003 8:42 PM
Slightly off the topic a bit:

That's why I'm buying my second seat-tubeless bike. The first was a Kestrel 500EMS, the second is a Mrazek BOH RD. Why? Because its a novel design. Well actually its been around since the old bone-shakers hasn't it!?
Because it is different, then.

In a world full of double-triangle or "diamond frames" or whatever you call it - only a handful of frames stand out and will be noted many years down the track for daring to be different.

That is why I support the designers of these unique frames. Because if you don't buy their products, they eventually get swamped. And either they go out of buisness or they make what everyone (the consumers) want to buy OR whatever they'll make a bigger profit on. Are they the same thing? Well they try to make it the same.

Kestrel has now stopped making the 500SCI and 500EMS. Others could follow. Get the bike you really want to ride, not whatever is the status quo. If it is your dream to have a bike that you will eventually show to your nephews & nieces with pride, a bike that was, at the time, one of the few that spat all over the rest of the cookie-cutter bikes, then I urge you to get it before it's too late.

I don't ride what the UCI regulations state I should. Why? Because there's no way I'll ever go in a UCI-sanctioned race, because I'm not that good an athlete. (also because even if I was I'd tell them to "get stuffed", after reading the link about Graeme Obree) :-)

Sure traditional frames might have a slightly different diameter or tube-profile here or there, but they look all the same to me.
Ah, the old troll tactic works everytimepmf1
Sep 2, 2003 6:56 AM
Some folks just can't help themselves. Especially guys with Campy on their bikes.
youre not dope! :) nmthe bull
Sep 2, 2003 1:31 PM
re: Going from DA to Recordunobtainium
Aug 28, 2003 9:13 AM
You have to change the shifters, rear D, cassette, but not necessarily the chain, front D, or crankset. If your Kysriums are M10 and not ED10 I would try the 04 Dura-Ace 10 speed cassette. Its bound to be cheaper than Record and may work as well. If its a M10, you can change its freebody to Campy style and use Record.
No need for a special cassette.Zonic Man
Aug 28, 2003 10:21 AM
You can have the LBS order a campy cassette body for like $30 bucks plus labor.

Other than that, you're good to go.