|shimano 600 7speed advice||socalrookie|
Aug 22, 2003 8:00 PM
|hello everyone..i'm a rookie new road bike person wondering if you can help...
i have a downtube shifting shimano 600 7sp. older bike i bought off of ebay (i'm having a blast with it) but...
1. my chain jumped off and tore up my bike and the chain itself got crushed...the shifting is a bit fussy even though i had new cables and a tune by LBS...is this normal with the shimano 600?? i find that the shifting up and down the casette is great but on the crank between the two rings it isn't ...always have to place the shifter just right to avoid noise ...what is your experience...
3. the rear wheel is out of true and my LBS wants to straighten it but the nipples are corroded so they are talking about me just getting a different new rear wheel...
4. so here are some questions...what would you do to get yourself a good rear wheel with the set up i have...would you change out the casette to a 8sp new ultegra and slap on a new ultegra rear derailer?...i'm new to this and i love the bike but i need to do something about the rear wheel and the shifting that is crunching my bike!
also, for a beginner like me what rim would you throw on in the rear...i ride like a rookie...don't do group rides...love the hills...need to get better on the flats...hate high maintenance anything...am doing the l.a. triathalon for the first time...
anyway that is a lot and thanks in advance...i've learned a lot from you guys already...good riding to you...
|How much money do you want to spend?||the bull|
Aug 23, 2003 3:57 AM
|Here is how it goes.
If your going to buy a wheel why not get a 8-9 speed right?
Sure might as well get the wheelset right?
Okay 200 bucks for a ultegra/open pro wheelset.
Need a cassette right ok 40 bucks.
dont forgret a rear derailuer! 40 bucks.
STI shifters would be nice might as well get nine speed right?
You have allready spent 280 bucks!
can you get shifters for 170 bucks.
Allright this is geting expensive.
Your up to 450 bucks, and you still gonna have those old cranks and brakes!
You can get a deal on a group and wheels.
your pretty much gonna upgrade the whole frame,so do you really like the frame!
You see where I getting.
I am buliding up a a bike right now.
I am gonna have less then 500 bucks in it.
Getting a complete Campy 9spd Veloce group for 475$
including the wheels.
Sounds like something you might want to consider.
It would be like having a new bike!
Aug 23, 2003 4:48 AM
|Before starting to throw money consider frame material and rear dropout spacing and the ability to handle new 130mm hubs.Your front shifting problem could be worn rings or derailer mis adjustment,among other things.Being friction,it's pretty simple comapred to STI. Adjusting the front derailer to stop chain rub is called trimming it.Not a big deal.....Excel gets $525 for Veloce group and $825 for a complete Veloce build kit...Where you get that $475 deal,assuming new?|
Aug 23, 2003 8:37 AM
|The group is $385 for the group than add $90 to get the wheels! BRAND NEW!
I agree with you about all the tune up stiff but I am assuming all that was done when it was at the bike shop.
Some people do not want to deal with friction shifters when they can hi a button and click there way into a perfectly adjusted gear that they want.
Also the rear dropouts can be spread esp. if the frame is an older steel one right?
I know I did it without any trouble.
I have read your posts here! Surly you seem to have some exprience with this as well!
Personally I would just ride the bike the way it is and start saving for a new one.
I was just tring to show how when you start fixing a old bike up on thing leads to another an the next thing you know you practically have a new bike!
Aug 23, 2003 11:22 AM
|...I have spread dropouts and done makeovers on old bikes.Doing it yourself with parts bought right can be cost effective and worth doing depending on the frame.Helps to know all the compatibility ins and outs,but many just end up throwing money away.At least he asked first,rather than getting in over his eyeballs with parts that don't match.|
|If you're doing it as a hobby, or just because you||OldEdScott|
Aug 23, 2003 3:17 PM
|get pleasure out of it, it's a fine thing to do. Especially if money is not an issue. But if you're doing it to patch together a main ride, or on the mistaken assumption that you'll save money, nah.|
|If you're doing it as a hobby, or just because you||Rusty Coggs|
Aug 23, 2003 3:48 PM
|That's a pretty broad generalizaton,and I don't think it flies if one knows how to buy right. But, most that ask the question don't know all the ins and outs of doing it on the cheap.Trust me, I have saved lots of money, and except for some beaters, everyone is a main ride that I would not be buying otherwise.|
|Wasn't talking about you or anyone with experience.||OldEdScott|
Aug 23, 2003 4:04 PM
|I do it all the time too. I believe for a fact you've saved lots of money. So have I. Even when I haven't saved money, since it's a hobby and a satisfaction, it's worthwhile. How do you put a price on bringing back a good old bike, and riding it pleasurably?
I was referring to a generic new poster, all too common, who pops up here saying "After years of MTB, I've decided to try road. I have a 1991 (fill in the blank) road bike and I LOVE the frame. I want upgrade to ..."
What they WANT is a more modern bike, not a bottomless pit of a project that will probably never function well anyway.
It's a losing proposition.
Aug 23, 2003 4:41 PM
|what's great is i got all different points of view...thankyou...
the thing that sucks is that i'm stuck with 7sp hubs so that limits my choices a lot if i don't want to spend a lot of money...
what i've learned from here is that i should just make what i have work and that makes sense to me considering the money i spent on the bike $300 and the fun i'm having on it priceless...
i just got back from the LBS...and they said my front derailer was way too high(their fault) and yes my chain stay has a good gash in it...i'm actually really pissed about it but what are you gonna do...
i then took my bike to another shop and he threw my bike up and with a few turns of a small tool...trued my rear wheel....
i'm learning that most bike mechanics suck as bad as car mechanics...thats why i do my own car work...so i'll have to learn the bike thing too...it's just a can of worms i don't really want to get into i'm too busy...
...ideally i just want a reliable/comfortable/speedy/bike to ride around the hills in so. cal..and do a tri for the hell of it..
|Have fun and enjoy. nm||OldEdScott|
Aug 23, 2003 4:55 PM
|Becareful here! :)||the bull|
Aug 23, 2003 8:47 PM
|"i'm learning that most bike mechanics suck as bad as car mechanics"
SAY_ SOME MECHANICS!
I dont suck!I hook people up!
I am honest and take pride in what I do!
|How can you hook people up in a dealership?||Fez|
Aug 24, 2003 6:34 AM
|Customers only deal with the service writer, who often times isn't the greatest of folks
Are you allowed to use the service bay after hours?
|Hooking people up ..||the bull|
Aug 24, 2003 10:05 AM
|With good work and throughness.
I will sometimes not charge them for little stuff while their car is in for big stuff.
I have them ask for certian service writers who can give a discount.
They will rember me.
One day I will have my own shop.
I have customers who have Hondas and Toyotas from where I used to work follow me to this dealer cause they only want me to work on there cars.
|More on this topic...||Fez|
Aug 24, 2003 5:18 PM
|Most of the time, the mechanics do good work on my cars. I almost never come into contact with them, which is a shame, because I would have liked to thank them after a job well done.
The dissatisfaction I have is usually with the service writers and service managers at a dealership. They usually do not communicate well, since they are the middleman between the customer and mechanic.
And after my warranty expires, I get annoyed at every item gets charged its own line item and flat rate hour, even though it was all one job.
For example, I wanted spark plugs, spark plug wires and a distributor cap&rotor put on. Instead of one job, the service writer wanted to make it 3 different services and use flat rate labor hours totaling 2 hours, even though its pretty much all one job.
Same with getting a radiator replaced and a belt replaced. Its all related, but 2 separate jobs and the customer gets reamed paying excess labor hours.
I get tired of having to haggle with the guy to price it more reasonably. Why can't they just charge a fair price to begin with?
Aug 24, 2003 7:15 PM
|Then I would not even be able to afford a fake Colnago!:)|
|re: shimano 600 7speed advice||LC|
Aug 23, 2003 7:53 AM
|It might help to know what kind of bike you got to know if you can go 8 or 9 speed.
The front shifting does take some fussing if your trying to cross chain too much, but it might be able to be dialed in better since two rings is usually pretty easy to set up so you throw the lever up or down and it goes into to gear perfectly.
|Find out what the REAL problems are||Fez|
Aug 23, 2003 7:55 AM
|I have ridden 600 Ultegra 7 speed many years ago. It was very good stuff in its day and still good by today's standards. Your stuff may be a bit worn or out of adjustment.
You have 3 basic choices -
1. get the stuff fixed and stay 7 speed
2. upgrade to a current 9 speed setup
3. bail entirely and get another bike
If you want to spend the least money, then find out what the real problems are and go from there. Its possible you just need a new 7 speed chain and cassette. They still make these.
If your wheel is corroded, then it is cheaper to buy a new prebuilt wheelset than rebuilding the one you have on the existing old hub. But most new hubs are spaced for 9 speed. So you had to buy new wheels, chain and cassette anyway, so those are not relevant costs. If you decide to go 9 speed, you would also have to get new derailleurs and chainrings and shifters.
Although Performance sells these 9 speed upgrade kits pretty cheap, you have to wonder if the cost of the kit and wheels are money you want to spend on an old frame and fork.
Is the bike a real cream puff? If not, just try to get it working in current 7 speed form and save up for a better bike in the near future.
Aug 23, 2003 8:54 AM
|you guys are great...
the bike is made out of carbon fiber and alum...carbon bars with alum..rear stays(i think that is what they are called) and alum..bar from crank to rear...
1. i either switch out the components to 9sp
2. just get the thing working as is
3. stuck with out of true 7sp rear wheel because new hubs are all designed for 9sp...
ideally could i get a set of open pros that work with my 7sp?? put a new 7sp casette on and chain...by the way what is a good chain???.
i'm in the l.a. area is there anyone out there that know a great mechanic..i've gone to two and one but my bar tape on backwards and the other didn't do such a good job with the shifting??? i know i should do it myself and i will eventually but i just want to get going with my training...
you guys are great i can know go to the mechanic with some muscle behind me...thanks again
Aug 23, 2003 9:15 AM
|measure the spacing between the rear dropouts. More than likely a 7spd will 126 mm meaning you can't fit a new 8/9 spd wheel (130mm) on it. If it were steel (which you say it is not) then you could cold set it to spread the rear open a big. With Alu and CF I dont think there is a work around. You are stuck at 126mm.
That also means you will have a hard time finding any modern pre-built wheel for it as most are 130mm (8/9spd). You best bet, if you have a decent hub is just to have it rebuilt with new spokes and hoop (if needed). The cost of this might be more than the cost of a new pre-built cheap wheel but not even close to the $300+ cost of a good pre-built rear wheel.
As for the trim. It is normal and you should be thankfull you have friction shifting. STI owners get a few extra clicks on their shirter to deal with trim where you have every angle you want. Make sure you are not running big-small or vise versa - this is not good on the drivetrain and usually when you have the most rub on the front.
I would just look into trueing up your current wheel. Take it to a shop that knows how to REPLACE spokes ($2) and true your wheel ($10) instead of one that want so sell you a bunch of new stuff. Once you agree to that they would probably start adding stuff up and tell you they can get you a better 'new' bike for what it will cost you.
Then after you found a new shop have them check your cassette ($20-30) and chain ($20) for wear. There should be no reason to overhaul an older bike with a bunch of newer expensive parts. You pay way more after market for parts than you would if you get them on a new bike.
So get what you have fixed by a reliable shop and save up your money for a new bike. I guess in LA you probably don't have a big off season but in Illinois I know I can find a lot of last years models on the cheap right after Christmas. You just have to get in early enough to get the right size.
|4.Rebuild the wheel with the hub you have now .||the bull|
Aug 23, 2003 9:16 AM
|Lace up a MA-40 Mavic rim with new spokes to the hub you have now!Cost 50 bucks!
That is what I would do if I wanted to save some money for now.
Friction shifting is not that bad once you get the hang of it.
I belive everyone should ride it at one time or another.
It gives you a better idea of how the bike bike works instead of just absently minded hitting levers to change gears!
In the long run it will make you a better cyclist!
|This site has lots of cool old stuff!||the bull|
Aug 23, 2003 9:28 AM
Then there is always E-bay! :(
Aug 23, 2003 9:31 AM
|a very rookie question...i think i will just deal with the rear wheel/chain/casette/ and not change out components even if i could...so here is my newbie question...hubs:: if i'm gonna have the rim built up should i replace the hub with a new(7sp) hub?? i figure i'm never gonna sell this bike just keep it and train on it and when i can get a new bike so with that in mind what would you do...just a good solid long lasting training bike that needs a 7sp rear wheel built up....
also, bull thanks and i've never ridden an sti bike but i really enjoy the friction shifters...it is like driving an old manuel transmission car....this road riding is addicting and i'm even gettin my butt in shape...thanks you guys
Aug 23, 2003 10:45 AM
|If the hub is in good shape.
It it spins good I would build it up.
You can build up a Mavic Rim and get some DT Swiss spokes.
For under a hundred bucks.A 3x build up would be strong and Ideal for training and riding everyday on.
The Phill wood hub I posted is a awesome peice of equipment.
I would seriously think twice about spending alot of money on your setup you have now though.It would be wiser to reuse your current hub if it is in good shape.
Then with a new chain and cassette you should be set!
Try soaking a little oil on each spoke nipple before you give up on it.
Sounds like you really need a good tech to look at your ride.
I wish you and your bike bike were here in my garage, but I will do the best I can to help you here on this site.
|built in U.S.A. wheel/rim choice||socalrookie|
Aug 23, 2003 9:48 AM
|if i wanted the option to buy an american built rim where would i look/ who is doing it out there..something like the mavic open pro or similar...just a question ???|
|built in U.S.A. wheel/rim choice||LC|
Aug 23, 2003 10:54 AM
|Sun rims are excellent and usually less expensive than French rims that like to creak and click.
Sounds like you are pretty much stuck with a 7 speed hub. Unless the rim is shot, I would just have them relace the wheel with new spokes and nipples. Even if the old nipples are corroded on the spokes they can alway be cut off and removed without damage to the rim or hub.
If you want to ditch the friction shifting, an option is to use 8 cogs out of the 9 speed type cogs which fit nicely on a 7 speed hub. With the 9 speed spaced cogs (although you only have 8) it will let you do modern STI shifting which is very nice for a newer rider since you get to keep your hands on the bars. STI shifters are fairly expensive so you have to decide if you really need them. Go test ride a bike and see if it is worth it to you.
Aug 23, 2003 9:32 PM
|I am in a similar situation regarding my ride but it sounds like I have more cycling in me than you do. I'm mainly a pretty decent mtb'er which means I do alot of repair/maintainance/upgrading and do it myself. And I'm not made of money.
So I had a great old road bike pass through my hands and picked it up from a friend at a nice price. The drive train was upgraded to the first index shifting Dura-Ace 7 speed. I went through the bike, it works well, and I really enjoy my road riding on it.
My wheels were the original Mavics and I broke a spoke or two and there was pitting and the mating joint on the rim wasn't as smooth as modern wheels. Let's see....old wheels braking, riding 50mph downhills; do the math.
Everything else on this bike is Campy Record and the hubs are very limited in what can work the them but, as I said, it works very well. My goal was to keep riding well and smart. So I opted to have new wheels built around the old and perfectly functioning hubs; even the shop liked them. And, no , I didn't buy the lightest, trickest, sickest wheels. I bought inexpensive/comperable modern rims with machined braking surfaces and the wheels were built for about $200 out the door. Am I happy. You bet. The weight was a wash but the lateral rigidity is fantastique and I am very confident on them.
Your drivetrain problem? From the hip, and no disrespect meant, okay? Part of it was your lack of skill complicated by the special touch needed with friction shifters. The other part was a poor adjustment of your liimiting screw on the front derailleur.
My call, keeping in mind that you are an athlete capable of considerable power and, therefore, ruin. Replace the wheeset for your own safety. Get a new chain and get your front der properly adjusted. Be patient with learning how to shift as a function of learning how to ride. It's akin to learning to drive with a stick versus a slush box. Sure it may just be a bicycle, and forcrissakes, how hard could it be, but remember, never take tools, power, and performance for granted; there is skill in there somwhere.
So forget about all that upgrade talk as $500 is only the beginning because you have to install and adjust it. It doesn't sound to me like you have the skills yet so you will have to pay someone to do it. So we're talking $600-700 now. Save those sort of bucks for when you know more about the sport and what you need in a NEW bike.
h, yeah,and learn how to place the shifter just right to avoid the noise; it's part of cycling and everyone appreciates it.
Good luck on the Tri.
Aug 24, 2003 7:53 PM
|your advice is taken...i think it was my fault combined with a front derailer that was "way to high"...i've learned to adjust the derailer now so it's centered at least i think i have...as far as all the things you said i really appreciate the honesty....i'm just gonna keep riding and keep learning and making mistakes...no upgrades for now...maybe some open/pro's in the future..thanks you guys...|
|re: shimano 600 7speed advice||desmo|
Aug 24, 2003 8:37 PM
|I picked up a '85 Trek 600 this weekend at a yard sale for twenty bucks. 6 speed with friction downtubes. 128 rear spacing but a 130 9 speed wheel slips right in with out a problem. Adjusting the limit screws out on the rear der. allows the 6 speed 600 der to easily shift the 9 speed cassette (Campy Veloce). Works swell. So if you want cheap, buy a machine built 9 speed wheelset and run with your downtube friction shifters.|| |