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Mavic Open Pro: Dura-Ace hubs worth it over Ultegra?(26 posts)

Mavic Open Pro: Dura-Ace hubs worth it over Ultegra?hrv
Mar 16, 2003 9:17 AM
Looking for 2nd set of wheels,maybe to use as main set, for training/racing. Sort of decided on Mavic OPs. Dura-ace noticeable over Ultegra?

Thanks,
hrv
re: Mavic Open Pro: Dura-Ace hubs worth it over Ultegra?wackycyd
Mar 16, 2003 10:11 AM
Hi Hrv,

Yes, noticeable difference between DA and Ultegra hubs, better freehub body titanium axle, races and cones in DA hubs over Ultegra's, as well as seals.

Rule of thumb -

If in doubt opt for the best i.e. DA or Record, whatever your set up is, and you generally can't go wrong.

Wacky
Another rule of thumb...KEN2
Mar 16, 2003 10:18 AM
Another rule of thumb says to buy the next-to-the-top product in a product line, which usually provides the best quality to cost ratio.
I agree with thatAmbishawn
Mar 16, 2003 11:52 AM
Dont have much experience with road bike groups but noticed that XTR componets were never any better than XT. I went with Chourus on My new road bike for this reason aswell. I considered Dura Ace and had several bike mechanics tell me to get Ultegra becase it's just as good. The top tier like Record and Dura Ace usually are lighter and usually at the expence of lifespan to achive this.

The lower lines usually are both heavier and don't function as well as the top two lines in a group.

If my road bike were Shimano Equipt I'd probably go with Chris King hubs.
Another rule of thumb...if u're on a budget of coursewackycyd
Mar 17, 2003 10:55 AM
Why buy a Honda NSX when you can have a Ferrrari?.......does the rule of thumb count here I ask?

Not meaning to stir anything here folks, but as HRV says he wants a 2nd set for training/racing, DA's are a better option in my view, as I don't think Ultegra seals are that good and so the races, bearings and cones need replacing more than DA's, but what do I know, only been in the bike trade 14+ years, but then again, half the cyclists I know don't look after their bikes, so usually has something to do with it, although as I say DA's hold out better in the long run.

Anyway, each to their own as they say.

Wacky
ACURA NSX or Ferrari?the bull
Mar 17, 2003 12:36 PM
More like nsx vs.S2000.
ferrari is like Record right?
NSX or Ferrari, I'll tell you why...TJeanloz
Mar 17, 2003 2:31 PM
I can speak from experience, being the owner of an NSX with a Ferrari-owning father.

Why buy an NSX instead of a Ferrari?

1. Oil changes cost $25 at your Honda dealer, instead of $2500 at your Ferrari dealer. Though you are more likely to get a cappucino while you wait for the Ferrari.

2. Honda reliability. I prefer not to have my car quit on the road. I think I'd like it even less if I paid more than $200,000 for it.

3. Low profilibility [that's definitely not a word]. When people see the NSX, you tell them its an Acura, and they aren't impressed. People know a Ferrari when they see it. It sounds fun-- but trust me, having every fat, middle-aged man on every street corner strike you up in conversation, usually about car mechanics that they know little or nothing about, gets old fast.

4. Short of the F50, which nobody realistically drives, the NSX beats the Ferrari in virtually every performance metric.

The Ferrari-NSX debate is a lot like the Shimano/Campy debate, or the Trek/Colnago arguement, with the Ferrari people invariably chalking up the excess cost to "soul". It differs from the Ultegra/Dura Ace debate because from the performance perspective, the more affordable version is almost universally superior.
Not quite, but close...Fez
Mar 17, 2003 3:57 PM
The NSX is cheaper to own and maintain than any Ferrari, but still not exactly cheap. Service costs are high after the warranty period expires and the parts start to need replacement. But if you bought yours new, you probably have a few extra bucks lying around and that's not a big concern.

Early generation NSXs needed tires as often as 5-10K miles because the alignment was set toe in for better handling. A class action lawsuit resulted and they changed the alignment slightly and also started printing a disclaimer on the window sticker. Nevertheless, the early models had pretty inexpenisive tires, but the later models got larger wheels and more expensive to replace tires.

Assuming you had a manual (an auto NSX sounds insane), did you have a cow when you found out how much a clutch was to replace?

As great as the NSX is/was, it is not a daily driver. And yes, even after 12 years, it still manages to turn a few heads. How many other 1991 designs out there can still look this good?

But yeah, Ferrari costs are a little outrageous. Like having to drop the engine just to do a 30,000 mile service. I forgot what it cost, but I think it was over $3,000.
Service and warranty two different things!the bull
Mar 17, 2003 5:15 PM
15k 30k and 45k are all done while car is under warranty but you still have to pay.Warranty only covers certian things that break not normal wear and tear.
Service and warranty two different things!Fez
Mar 17, 2003 9:01 PM
no sh1t, sherlock. but if you buy a new car you have warranty coverage (manufacturers defects) for 4 years in this case. the point was that after it expires, you're on your own for anything that fails.

and generally, the useful life of parts are such that they don't need replacement for several years from new. hence the low service and repairs costs when the car is new.
Call me crazy...TJeanloz
Mar 18, 2003 7:24 AM
I have an automatic NSX (1994, pre-tiptronic). It has over 60,000 miles on it, and, excluding tires, has probably cost a grand total of $1,000 in maintenance ($300 in oil changes, $300 for each 'major' servicing @ 30k and 60k, $100 misc.). My father's Ferrari is 1 year old, has less than 10,000 miles on it, and he has paid nearly double that in maintenance.

Your tire information is also mildly incorrect. Early NSX's, including mine, were spec'd with a custom sized Yokahoma tire, which, because of the size, had to be special ordered and was only made by Yokahoma. And they weren't what I would have called inexpensive -- if I recall, the rear set (which never lasted more than 5k mile) was about $1,000. Currently, Michelin makes a tire that is about $150 and I'm on my second set. No big deal.

Interestingly enough regarding acquisition cost, the NSX used to be cheap. When it came out in 1991, I believe list was $49,000. I paid less than $50k for mine, new (at auction from a bankrupt dealer). As cars go, I don't think lifetime costs are any more than for any car in its class (i.e. Acura, BMW, Mercedes), and probably less than most of the European cars.
Tires - depends on the year and the sizeFez
Mar 18, 2003 9:16 AM
Yeah, I said the tire stuff was year and size dependent, and I had no idea what year you had. It sounds like 94 was the 1st year they went to that 16/17" wheel combo.

IIRC, the early generations had a smallish 15" front and a 225/50ZR16 rear. Both of these tires are very common and inexpensive on the aftermarket, even if you are buying matching brand and model for the front and rear. (Putting different brands front and rear is a little odd).

The later generation ones had a smallish oddball size 16" front and a 245/40ZR17 rear. The rear is pretty cheap (common BMW size), but the front is an obscure size. So that pretty much limits your choices for matching front and rear tires and the ones that do are more expensive because of the NSX-specific market. However, Acura did use more than one supplier for tires and if you go to Tirerack.com there are bridgestone, yokohama and michelin pairs for NSX

I think the "bargain" priced NSX pretty much applied to the 1991 model. $55,000 was pretty unheard of for a Japanese TRUE sports car (the RX7 Turbo and Supra Twin Turbo were not out yet and were not on the same performance level). The price rapidly climbed to $80,000 in about 5 years and I wouldn't be surprised if its around $100K now.

I must say I have never heard of buying an NSX at auction as a result of a dealer going belly up. Of the dealers I have seen go under, another one steps in and buys up the inventory so usually you won't see them for any less than the usual sales gimmicks that are out there.
Buying nice cars cheap...TJeanloz
Mar 18, 2003 11:17 AM
There are a few auctions in the U.S. for luxury cars, mostly used, but you can get pretty much whatever you want. There's one in Dallas, one outside of L.A., and one in Pennsylvania. Downside is that you have to be a legitimate dealer to go to one...or a good customer of a legitimate dealer. The auction was monthly, and there were 1 or 2 NSXs each month; it took about 4 months to find one that I liked (brand new, no issues). The other auction downside is that cars are sold "as is" and a lot of them have issues (i.e. brand new, but fell off the boat at the port of entry, unkown condition). Anyway, I paid just under $50k for the NSX, my dad bought a (very slightly used) Bently the same day for ~$80,000. It's not a bad way to slide yourself into a nice car.
Oh, THOSE auctions...Fez
Mar 18, 2003 11:57 AM
Yes, I am familiar with them, particularly the one in PA (Manheim?).

You're right, lots of highline cars go thru there. Great place for a dealer, but if you happen to get in to one and are looking for your own car and you happen to be a perfectionist, you really have to do your homework. It can be a little nervewracking plunking down the cash at the auction.

You sound like you got a good one. I've always special ordered my cars (German ones, since special order Japanese cars are basically matching your order to the next car available in the U.S. allocation) so I get it exactly the way I want it and so it doesn't sit at port or dealer inventory any longer than other cars.
I think, as with a lot of other things, ebay has hit hard...TJeanloz
Mar 18, 2003 1:12 PM
The auctions aren't what they used to be, I think a lot of luxury car dealers are moving their inventory on-line, either to the consumer or amongst themselves. I recently bought a Maserati and winced as I paid pretty much full price at the dealer. Looking forward to the maintenance...

But with a new car in particular, to get exactly what you want, you just have to suck it up and pay more. I didn't want the NSX in automatic, but the deal was good enough that it made it worthwhile...
Question about AcuraFez
Mar 18, 2003 4:53 PM
Did you get a full factory warranty with your Acura?
That was interesting, actually,TJeanloz
Mar 19, 2003 7:02 AM
At the auction, they said there was no factory warranty, but after I got the title, Acura called me and told me that I did have a warranty and welcomed me into the "NSX Owners Club" (which is an actual organization that Acura runs -- they send owners posters, race tickets and whatnot). And I later proved their answer correct when they replaced my transmission under warranty.
That was interesting, actually,wackycyd
Mar 20, 2003 12:05 PM
Acura/Honda, whatever, good 2 C I started up a good debate 4 U all.

What about a Skyline or an Imprezza?????????
NSX or Ferrari, I'll tell you why...wackycyd
Mar 18, 2003 5:36 AM
Easy Campy Record everytime, Colnago everytime and if I had the money a Sierra Cosworth 4x4, have an NSX off any day!

Wacky
re: Mavic Open Pro: Dura-Ace hubs worth it over Ultegra?curlybike
Mar 16, 2003 12:11 PM
Since the spoke holes in the D/A are closer to the correct size, the spokes will last longer than they will in Ult.. Ultegra spoke holes are 2.6 mm and D/A are 2.3.
That's right.Ambishawn
Mar 16, 2003 12:47 PM
Joe Young told me about Ultegra hubs having large 2.6mm holes. He said you need to use spoke washers with these and they will be alright. I assumed that Dura Ace hubs were the same in this respect but apparantly there not. In the case of Chourus and Record there the same except for lube ports and Ti Pawls in the rear hub. If you do go Ultegra use those spoke washers and you should be fine. The Dura Ace presents an advantage in this respect.
ultegra hubs are fine!the bull
Mar 16, 2003 10:08 PM
got a op/ultegra traning wheel set on my bike and they are
fine (got them for free).looks like the hubs are going to out last the rims at which point I toss them.
but they roll smooth and are good for rollers.
guess what I am saying is it really worth the extra 80 bucks for a traning wheelset -get 3x for sure frt and rear.
Curious..how much do Open Pros w Dura-Ace weigh ?Maartin
Mar 17, 2003 12:27 PM
I am also considering a pair but can not find a weight of the Open pros with Dura-Ace hubs Thanks
970g rear, 770g front +-DaveLobster
Mar 17, 2003 1:28 PM
The typical build you see at Performance, Colorado Cyclist with 32/32 DT Swiss 14/15 db 3x and brass nipples would weigh in around 1740g. Any change in the above spec would change your total.
w/ 28 Revolution 3xTrekFurthur
Mar 19, 2003 11:13 AM
Mine go about 1600 grams for the pair. Very nice wheels. Smooth rolling (much smoother than my Kings), light, and true.
I've decided: NSX, I mean Ferrari,oops, I mean Dura Ace! (nm)hrv
Mar 19, 2003 11:02 AM