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Not to start an endless debate.. Italian steel lugged...(20 posts)

Not to start an endless debate.. Italian steel lugged...MrDan
Mar 5, 2003 8:45 AM
Ok,
So I'm in deep bike lust... and genuinely need a new ride.
I've been considering a 2001 Lemond Zurich closeout (853, but welded...) 2003 Klein Alu/Carb stays ... but I think I'm getting bitten hard by things Italian. I do intend to ride them all and try to be objective, but I've had my high-end Lotus for 20+ years with a lugged frame. The thing is SOLID! (But it's too big) The welded steel frames just look plain ugly to me... I would love to hear from people who have many miles with good Italian lugged frames, as well as also having some solid riding time on Al/Carb stay bikes, especially the Klein... (I know..., hard to get those guys off an Italian steel bike... I'll probably be one of them!)

Italian things would be say... Ciocc, Guericotti, Pinarello,
Battaglin - real classic designs.

I've read alot of good things about both the Lemond and the Klein here in the reviews and elsewhere. A buddy of mine in CA. though will never sit his but on anything but a classic Italian... I think he's finally beginning to sway me.

-Dan
..not THIS endless debate again...Spunout
Mar 5, 2003 8:59 AM
I've ridden Colnago, now ride Lemond(2001 Zurich, it is amazing, but finicky fitting). Now that you've realized that steel real, you are halfway home. Lemond welds are somewhat clean, but not like a Landshark's filet brazing.

Lugs are, well, Lugs and amazing.

www.gios.it
www.gvhbikes.com (Colnago Technos, Cinelli Supercorsa, Landshark...great steel inventory).
just buy a Gios Compact Prodesmo
Mar 5, 2003 9:26 AM
can get a super cool chrome fork from them, and it even has a short top tube like an Italian bike should. for the price you can't go wrong. of course you have to be a super strong rider to drag the extra couple of pounds around and be able to keep up with yer buddies on alloy and carbon rigs (har har).
Tommasini...C-40
Mar 5, 2003 9:34 AM
The Tommasini Techno is a fine classic Italian frame (for $1000 at Colorado Cyclist). Fancy lugs, fully chromed fork and rear triangle (acutally the whole frame is chromed).

Unfortunately, the model currently offered at CC is the ugliest color I've ever seen. What were they thinking.
Tommasini Technounchained
Mar 5, 2003 10:23 PM
That is a great deal @$1000. The other US importer is upset because apparently the retail is approx. $1400. WmLewis had them @$1500 a few years back.

I agree, ugly color though, and they only stock odd sizes.

They should have just brought them in basic colors: white, red and blue. Geez.
my opinon - stay with steel or go to ti- the 853 tubes rock.nmthe bull
Mar 5, 2003 9:49 AM
re: Not to start an endless debate.. Italian steel lugged...juanteal
Mar 5, 2003 10:00 AM
If you are actually going to ride this bike, consider what will happen when you bend the derailler hanger, mis-thread the BB, or pop off a water bottle braze-on. Since the Klein/Lemond was probably bought at your LBS, it will be back on the road next weekend. A good shop will cannibalize a frame on the shelf, because they're still happy you spend $2000 there in the first place. But with the Italian frame, you're going to have to track down the importer, who spends his life avoiding these kinds of hassles. Then you're going to have to send your frame to Milan. Hopefully this didn't happen in August, because the whole factory is probably shut down on holiday. Of course, you could always send the bike to a frame-fixer you found in the back of VeloNews, but what are the chances this person has the right hardware and painting skills to make everything look perfect again (the reason you bought the bike in the first place).

Just some ruminations from someone who's been there, and won't buy another bike from anywhere not on the North American continent, unless it's worth trashing).
TOP TEN reasons not to go lugged Italian steel....sprockets2
Mar 5, 2003 11:36 AM
This is offered in the spirit of fun, but there is more than a grain of truth here:

10. some of these small Italian shops have rather narrow capability-they don't have the resources of a Bianchi or Colnago
9. not every bike from a "Master" workshop is produced by the Master
8. lugs limit options in tube angles and diameters
7. the majority of the Italian bikes folks are naming use last-generation steel or older
6. not all Italian bikes have that classic feel
5. most riders don't actually want that classic feel
4. if you have to ship a frame "over there" you will wait a long time
3. Mario didn't ride Italian steel last year
2. lugs weigh more than welds
1. you can get a custom US bike (welded) with modern steel
Easy - lots of choicesLeroy
Mar 5, 2003 11:47 AM
Gios, Colnago, Viner, Cinelli for starters. I have a Gios addiction, myself.
TOP TEN reasons not to go lugged Italian steel....sprockets2
Mar 5, 2003 12:05 PM
This is offered in the spirit of fun, but there is more than a grain of truth here:

10. some of these small Italian shops have rather narrow capability-they don't have the resources of a Bianchi or Colnago
9. not every bike from a "Master" workshop is produced by the Master
8. lugs limit options in tube angles and diameters
7. the majority of the Italian bikes folks are naming use last-generation steel or older
6. not all Italian bikes have that classic feel
5. most riders don't actually want that classic feel
4. if you have to ship a frame "over there" you will wait a long time
3. Mario didn't ride Italian steel last year
2. lugs weigh more than welds
1. you can get a custom US bike (welded) with modern steel
TOP TEN reasons to go lugged Italian steel....the bull
Mar 5, 2003 5:30 PM
1.Its not a trek
2.Its not a trek
3.Its not a trek
4.Its not a trek
5.Its not a trek
6.Its not a trek
7.Its not a trek
8.Its not a trek
9.Its not a trek
10. Its not a trek
10 more - the perfectionistsDMoore
Mar 5, 2003 5:49 PM
1. Richard Sachs
2. Tom Kellogg/Spectrum
3. Brian Baylis
4. Richard Bohm/Bohemian
5. Richard Moon
6. J.P. Weigle
7. John Murphy/Columbine
8. Albert Eisentraut
9. Peter Mooney
10. And - just for variety - the paint of Joe Bell
number 11, Columbine..n.m.koala
Mar 6, 2003 4:24 AM
They were #7 on my list!DMoore
Mar 6, 2003 3:35 PM
Ooops, nice enough to be listed twice?koala
Mar 8, 2003 4:49 AM
To me they are the perfect amount of ornamentation...
2 reasons for steel...........djkellycx
Mar 5, 2003 6:28 PM
Italian- Torrelli gives you classic italian with an american paint option, much better looking an durable than the euro option. they have lugs and also a version with carbon seatstays. The best of Italy in your L.B.S.....
As far as an American Master Brett Steelman is so underrated it is crazy. His stuff is world class...
Carrerra BADA BING!!!!atpjunkie
Mar 5, 2003 6:45 PM
has a lugged steel with Carbon Wishbone Stays, Modern plus Retro lugged swank. It's called

SHIELD:

For 2003 Luciano Bracchi improved the world's finest steel frame. Bracchi is now using Deda EOM 16.5 steel tubing to further lighten the frame. The Shield is still built with lugs, has multi shaped steel tubes and carbon wishbone seatstays. This frame is the perfect blend of tradition and new technology. Shield is offered in four sloping sizes, has a 1" Millenium full carbon fork by Mizuno and weighs 3 lb.

* Deda EOM 16.5 steel tubing with lugged construction
* Millenium 1" full carbon fork by Mizuno
* Carbon Wishbone seat stays
* Sloping geometry in four sizes (see special geometry chart)
* Frame weight: 3 lbs

Red Rose Imports sells them. As for guys saying lugs weigh more than welds, you can build a lugged frame with lighter / less grotesquely butted tubes as lugs and fillet brazing (silver) does less heat damage to the frame tubes allowing the builder to use lighter tubesets. Tig Welding due to it's high heat weakens the tubes at the joint which is compensated by using thicker tubes at the joints.
The Shield has all the modernist bells and whistles plus the retrogrouch pleasing lugs. IMHO (I have a pal with one SWEEEEET!)
Lugged bargainsunchained
Mar 5, 2003 10:46 PM
I just picked up a NOS lugged Basso Loto frameset with "Extra Light" tubing for $485 landed. It had been hanging in the LBS since 1996. It is a nice frame with rust treatment, and multiple coats of primer, paint and clear. The paint actually seems better than my Tommasini.

I had thought seriously about buying a $2450 DeRosa Ti. Well the Basso weighs about 400 grams more than the DeRosa, but it came painted, and I saved almost $2000.

My point is that there are some great deals out there on steel Italian bikes, especially with lugs, threaded steel forks, horizontal drop-outs, and down-tube shifter bosses. Newer cyclist seem to avoid those features, but they definitely have their advantages.

You can build up a bike that is reasonably light that you can feel comfortable just coasting around on. You buy a fancy Ti or Carbon bike and you might feel like a putz if you are not hammering. And you need not worry about shaving every last gram off the bike like those folks who buy Ti Al, or Carbon.

www.gvhbikes.com

www.ridecampy.com

http://www.racycles.com/catalog/casati_171660_products.htm

www.excelsports.com

http://www.highcaliper.com/
re: Not to start an endless debate.. Italian steel lugged...Heron Todd
Mar 6, 2003 8:40 AM
Italian lugged steel! Mama mia! I have to agree with some of the others that quality can vary quite dramatically in Italian frames. At the very least, make sure you have a good shop to check alignment and complete the frame prep. Torelli has always been tops in quality, and they have some beautiful lugged frames. Can't go wrong with them. Just remember that often you get what you pay for. Be careful of those really good deals.

Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
LaSalle, IL 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com
Don't forget Britian, get a Bob Jackson.Damn
Mar 6, 2003 10:24 AM
I think you'll see that Bob Jackson has more options and paint choices than most and the price isn't prohibitive either.