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Hubs: Hugi, White industries or Campy(36 posts)

Hubs: Hugi, White industries or Campybobobo
Feb 19, 2003 11:25 PM
Which are best and why? Also, does White Industries make an 18 hole front hub?
White Industries & Campy v. HugiDaveLobster
Feb 20, 2003 5:45 AM
White Industries is a very small operation, and their hubs are individually handmade (or as close to handmade as anything nowadays - they do use tools & machines). They can and will produce whatever you want. I purchased the White LTA hubs because the idea of something handmade in the USA by a craftsman appeals to me. If this is what you are looking for, I highly recommend them.

There is no reason to choose Hugi hubs over Record/Chorus. The current generation of Campy hubs with oversized alum. axles is closer to the boutique hubs than ever. Comparing weights without skewers, Record hubs weigh within a few grams of the Hugi 240. IMHO, the Campy hubs will last forever if properly maintained, and you can get parts anywhere, so the Hugi's have no advantage there either. Why spend more for a hub that's no better?
Joe Young saysAmbishawn
Feb 20, 2003 6:55 AM
DT Hugi 240 are considerably better than Record hubs. He claims they build a stronger rear wheel due to reduced wheel dish. He sells them for only $300 a set which is a smokin deal. Along with the reduced wheel dish he says they roll better, require less maintence due to labrinth seals and are almost 50gms lighter per set than Record. Yess thats without skewers. Also Campy has a technical bullitin out saying that they dont recommend there hubs for any one over #180.
Joe Young saysroad
Feb 20, 2003 3:13 PM
guys, not to complain....i'm running hugi for about 6 months over 1250 miles on it. In my bike club peoples get impress about my performance since i'm rolling using those. Climbing like a goat and rolling like a Devil. IMO if i decice to get new hubs again.....i'll get again hugi.
I call BS!!!!!!!Kerry
Feb 20, 2003 5:50 PM
Campy hubs limited to 180 lb rider weight? Absolute and total BS. Whatever source supplied you with this information should now fall into the "highly suspect" category. And per the previous poster, Hugi offers nothing (except exclusiveness) over Campy. It may be Mr. Young's OPIONION that he builds a stronger wheel with Hugi, but nothing more. Are the pros experiencing a rash of failures with Campy hubs (or the rest of us for that matter)? We're not? Well, I'll be! I'd put the Record hub against Hugi any day on any basis. You can argue about which is better, but you sure can't objectively prove it.
good callthe other Tim
Feb 20, 2003 7:13 PM
By my measurements, the Hugi 240s have more dish than Campy Record. There are no labyrinth seals on Hugi hubs, and they certainly don't roll better. Hugi is one of the few hub manufacturers that does not take advantage of the freehub/cassette system by moving the right bearing outward.

The best hubs on the market (IMO): Campy (Record & Chorus) and Shimano (D/A).
good callaltidude
Feb 20, 2003 7:30 PM
I'll vote for White Industries as the best hubs. Nice elevated driveside flange to help with dish and even out spoke tension, these components are basically hand built by WI, true old world craftsmanship and their bearings and smoothness of roll are as good as it gets. There was a reason why LEW demanded and only used WI hubs. not the super lightest out there, just a beautifully built hubset that is to hubs what Phil Wood is to bottom brackets.
good callAmbishawn
Feb 20, 2003 7:57 PM
Then how come DT Hugi says they run labrnith seal on there website? I'm not saying Hugis are better than Campy, Joe Young is. I actually planed on going Chorus/DT Revolution/Open Pro. He's recommending DT240/DT Competition/CXP33. I'm gonna contact Campy My self regaurding this issue.
good callaltidude
Feb 20, 2003 8:23 PM
What exactly did Joe say that makes you want to contact Campy? I have never before heard of Hugi hubs having an advantage over Campy as far as rear wheel dish, I'd be very interested in knowing specifically how they accomplish this because looking at their design on the surface it sure does not appear to have any great dish reducing abilities relative to Campy hubs. I run a Chorus rear hub and a record front hub on one wheelset and these wheels have been true forever, actually about 10,000 miles with only one very minor adjustment that was my fault, rider error, hitting something I should not have, not the wheels fault. Campy hubs for the money are extremely hard to beat and anyone who bad mouths them is blowing smke IMO, and I think Joe young is a very, very good wheelbuilder.
good callAmbishawn
Feb 20, 2003 9:09 PM
I'm a surprised as all of you. He isn't nesasarly bad mouthing Campy but he claims the DT Hugi hubs are better in every way. What makes me whant to contact Campy is the tech bullitin Joe says Campy sent out not recomending there hubs for riders Over about 180 lbs. (I'm a shade under 200). He even says a 32 hole rear DT240 hub will build a stronger wheel than a 36 hole rear Campy hub with the same rim and spokes. He offers the DT 240s for $300 a pair (still big bucks). He says it even rolls better than Campy. Joe is the only one I'd ever spoke with that has this opinion. I do trust his judgemeent based on his experience and reputation. Belive Me I'm skeptical of such statements regaurding his claims about these DT 240 hubs.
good callaltidude
Feb 20, 2003 9:21 PM
If i were you I would contact Campy. I have never heard of a weight limit with their hubs, they seem pretty stout to me, it's not exactly a weight weenie hub.
I'm gonna E-Mail the Campagnolo tech dept.Ambishawn
Feb 20, 2003 9:36 PM
I'll post another topic called Campagnolo Technical Bullitin once I get a responce. If a don't hear back from them I may ask Joe to fax me a copy of this bullitin. Actually the DT 240 are somewhat of a weight weenie hub if any thing. Gotta admit though, if you've built as many wheels as Joe you probably know what hubs work and what ones don't.
Sent the E-mail just now. nmAmbishawn
Feb 20, 2003 9:51 PM
I'm gonna E-Mail the Campagnolo tech dept.altidude
Feb 21, 2003 5:59 AM
The funniest thing is that most weight weenies, who really only excel at reading a gram amount rather than use any cognitive thinking, actually think the Chris King and Hugi hubs are really light. Problem is, neither of these hubsets advertised weights include the weights of skewers which both Shimano and Campy do. When you factor in skewer weight, even a light pair like Salsa ti, there is very little meaningful weight difference between Hugi hubs and Campy hubs. I rode some Hugis a couple times and I never noticed them spinning up faster or riding any smoother than my Campy hubs and believe me if they did I'd have run out and bought some not for the weight savings but better roll. A nice product, but very overpriced IMO and functionally no better or more durable than Campy or Shimano. I'm also a big skeptic about their design creating superior rear dish versus Campy, I need a detailed explanation of exactly how they supposedly accomplish this to buy into that contention., wheels, campy builtLeroy
Feb 21, 2003 7:17 AM
recommends weight limits on their wheels from record down to veloce. I don't know if that is because of the hubs or not. check out the catalog., wheels, campy builtaltidude
Feb 21, 2003 7:24 AM
Branfordbike said that Campy prebuilt wheelsets include skewer weights, not true. Campy on their website says that the listed weights for their prebuilt wheels do not include included skewers. Branford a couple months back told me that the Ksyrium was a garbage wheel with durability issues. Although I am no big supporter of Mavic, I do know the Ksyriums are durable from what I have seen in everyday life. i wonder how much of what Branford says is legit info versus pushing evry Campy product they can on people.
Well, now we know more about big Joe Young.Kerry
Feb 21, 2003 6:42 PM
I have no experience with this guy's wheel building skills, and he may be a fine builder. However, it is my tendency not to do business with people who are either so uninformed or so willing to BS as to make claims/statements like this.
I was wrongthe other Tim
Feb 21, 2003 7:19 AM
I was about to respond with a smart-ass "Well, maybe they don't know what a labyrinth seal is." when I decided to open one up. They do have labyrinth seals. I remember taking apart a different Hugi hub recently, and there were no seals except those on the bearings.

Still, the flanges are more off-center than Campy hubs, resulting in more dish, and the bearings are not as smooth. The 240 seems better than other Hugi hubs, but it still seems cheap to me. I'm a high-tech and progress freak, but new hub designs have yet to beat Campy and Shimano on anything but economy (IMO). And that economy isn't always passed on to the consumer. OK, C & S get beat on the scale, too, but not by much.
re: Hubs: Hugi, White industries or Campybobobo
Feb 20, 2003 7:40 AM
Thanks. Does White Industries make an 18 hole spoke hub? I ask becuase their website only indicates 24 hole and someone said that Dave Thomas of SpeedDream builds wheels with 18 spokes front using a White Industries hub? I'm currently debating between Thomas or Joe Young for a custom whelset.
re: Hubs: Hugi, White industries or Campyaltidude
Feb 20, 2003 8:28 PM
White industries does not offer 18 spoke hubs to the general public for sale, however for professional wheelbuilders like Dave Thomas, they do make custom sets of 18 hole hubs. They only do this for guys like Dave because properly tensioning an 18 hole hub requires a lot of skill and the plain truth is most of the general public doesn't have it. Also, it wouldn't be worth it to White to build a single pair of custom 18 hole hubs for an individual buyer. So the answer is Yes, Dave does build 18 spoke front wheels using custom fabricated White hubs.
Reduced Dish & how it is done....DaveLobster
Feb 21, 2003 7:23 AM
This whole reducing dish business is very simple. A rear hub for a multispeed bike does not have the flanges evenly spaced. The right flange is closer to the centerline of the hub. So the spokes on each side tend to run at different angles, and the left side by necessity ends up with less tension than the right. The term dish is not even really the correct term for this - any correctly built wheel has even dish on both sides, regardless of the different angles of the spokes.

All DT/Hugi has done is move the left flange closer to the center. So the current Hugi 240 has flanges spaced 46mm apart, with the right flange 29.8 to center and the left 16.2 to center. For comparison, the Record/Chorus hubs have the flanges spaced 53.6 apart (36.8 left & 16.8 right). A high-low hub like the White LTA achieves the same thing, but it is much harder to explain (trig is involved).

So all this boils down to the Hugi having a left flange that's 7mm closer to center than Campy. You get better reduction of the uneven spoke tension by using an off-center rear rim. (not to say that you couldn't use the Hugi and the off-center rim togehter and even further even out spoke tension)

If you want the Hugi's, get them, but don't try to convince yourself that it is due to some deficiency in the Campy hubs.
Reduced Dish & how it is done....altidude
Feb 21, 2003 7:33 AM
Thanks for the Hugi explanation. I knew how dish was reduced in theory, I just didn't see on the face of it how Hugi was accomplishing this. I think the Campy hubs track Record pretty much speaks for itself.
Excuse the term dish I ment uneven spoke tension.Ambishawn
Feb 22, 2003 9:59 PM
Uneven spoke tension is what DT Hugi is trying to avoid with there rear hubs. Joe Young claims that this more even spoke tension is more effective than having 36 spokes rather than 32. Even spoke tension in general seems to be the key to a strong wheel. Every good wheel builder agrees on this regaurdless of there choice of componets.
re: Hubs: Hugi, White industries or CampyYe Olde Balde One
Feb 21, 2003 9:42 AM
I think White just makes 18h front hubs for certain builders, a good LBS should be able to get it though.

I have a FiR wheelset built using an 18h front, 24h rear hubset from TEC of Italy. They are smooth, quiet running hubs that have a three pawl system that works well and is apparently interchangable between Shimano and Campy cassette systems. I don't know if they are available seperately though. I asked the store I got them from the weights, and they told me that they weighed 120gm front, 255gm rear.

I have no connection than being a satisfied customer.
re: Hubs: Hugi, White industries or Campyaltidude
Feb 21, 2003 9:57 AM
Nice looking wheels, how deep are the FIR rims?
25mm (nm)Ye Olde Balde One
Feb 21, 2003 12:01 PM
re: Hubs: Hugi, White industries or CampyYe Olde Balde One
Feb 21, 2003 9:44 AM
I think White just makes 18h front hubs for certain builders, a good LBS should be able to get it though.

I have a FiR wheelset built using an 18h front, 24h rear hubset from TEC of Italy. They are smooth, quiet running hubs that have a three pawl system that works well and is apparently interchangable between Shimano and Campy cassette systems. I don't know if they are available seperately though. I asked the store I got them from the weights, and they told me that they weighed 120gm front, 255gm rear.

I have no connection than being a satisfied customer.
Here is the pic I wanted to upload...Ye Olde Balde One
Feb 21, 2003 10:44 AM
Here is the pic I wanted to upload...altidude
Feb 21, 2003 12:33 PM
what is the website for this company where you can look at the hubs specs?
www.biketec.itYe Olde Balde One
Feb 21, 2003 12:56 PM
It's not very well updated though, or easy to navigate.
Sorry wrong picture (nm)Ye Olde Balde One
Feb 21, 2003 9:47 AM
Weights for those of you that care.....russw19
Feb 22, 2003 7:40 PM
Campy Record Hubs (with QR Skewers) 181 F 316 R
Hugi 240 Hubs (No QR Skewers) 94 F 245 R(Shimano Body) 250 R(Campy Body)
Shimano Dura Ace (with QR Skewers) 178 F 376 R
American Classic Hubs (No QR Skewers) 68 F 225 R

Salsa QR Skewers (ti) 85 per set
American Classic QR Skewers (stainless) 47 F 51 R
American Classic QR Skewers (Titanium) 39 F 41 R

So here's the breakdown for the hub pair with skewers (Hugi hubs w/ Salsa Skewers, AM Classics w/ AM Classic Ti Skewers)

Lightest to Heaviest for the pair and total weight...
American Classic Road 373/pr.
Hugi 240 w/Salsa 424/pr. Shimano Body, 429/pr. Campy Body
Campy Record 497/pr.
Shimano Dura Ace 554/pr.

So for all of you wanting light weight hubs, go American Classic, they are 124 grams lighter than Campy Record and
51 grams lighter than Hugi hubs. If you want strength, have them build you a set with the 420 rims and bladed spokes. If you want light, have them build with the 350 rim and Revolution spokes. They can build you a wheelset with a 28 front, 32 rear spoked wheelset at 1362 grams, and lighter if you requested 28 front and rear. That's lighter than the Campy Hyperion and about a third the price.
Weights for those of you that care.....Ye Olde Balde One
Feb 23, 2003 12:23 AM
It would be better comparing weights without QR's, the Record QR's are very heavy, and QR's are typically interchangeable.. Then you are comparing apples with apples.

One thing about the American Classics hubs, in their Campy version they don't work with all Campy compatible cassettes, especially the aluminum Tiso cassette I tried to use one with. American Classics solution to my problem (inner cog rubbing on the flange) was "use our 10s cassette and a Shimano compatible hub" - not very helpful!

I also found the American Classic rims (made by Alex???) to be junk.
Weights for those of you that care.....russw19
Feb 23, 2003 10:00 PM
My weights post was in response to someone that stated you couldn't make the arguement fairly because Campy lists their hubs with skewers, others do not. Yes the Campy skewers are heavy, but the point is, so is the hubset. Chris Kings, Hugis, and American Classics are all lighter, and by quite a bit. That was also the focus of the thread, was hub weight. Well, at least that's the part that caught my attention. The original question was which are the best, Record, White, or Hugi. I just added another option.
As for the American Classics.. I love my wheels. I have a set of the 420's built 20/24 with bladed spokes and they are lighter than Ksyriums and twice as strong. I have no problem with the rims either. I don't think they are made by Alex, but are made by Interloc (?) but I am not sure. But truth is, what makes me smile most about those wheels is the hubs. They rule, and they are the lightest on the market and very reliable. If I kill my wheels (rims) I will rebuild with those hubs on a different rim in the future.
But all that's just my humble opinion and that's what makes this fun.
I'll take Campy hubs over crappy AC hubs alldayaltidude
Feb 25, 2003 1:43 PM
AC stupidly shaves a bit of weight in their hubs, their hubs do not roll nearly as smooth or last as long as Campy hubs. Just a weight weenie design so they can market a slightly lower wheelset weight.
Weights for those of you that care.....altidude
Feb 25, 2003 1:51 PM
Yeah, they are 124 grams lighter have much shittier durability, much shittier rollup, much shittier design, much shittier flexy axle. gee what a great idea to save 1/4 of a pound on a part which provides virtually zero rotational benefits whatsoever. Meaqnwhile you have a hubset which doesn't roll as well, doesn't last nearly as long and has nice flexy axels on both the front hub and rear hub and I won't even get into what kind of crappy dish the rear hub builds into. Another genius weight weenie product with crappy lifespan and performance. I'll pass.

By the way, the next time you do a weight comparison try to do it half legitimate and compare hubs with same weight skewers, don't compare them with your weight weenie AC or salsa skewers. I run 60 gram skewers on my record hubs and guess what pal, your AC hubset isn't even 60 grams lighter with those skewers on them, and my hubs will blow your out of the water for durability, spinup and just about every other meaningful thing you can think of other than gram counting.