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Carbon frames with TI mesh!<----IT'S A LIE!!(19 posts)

Carbon frames with TI mesh!<----IT'S A LIE!!fredthebiker
Jan 22, 2003 5:26 AM
I was on here today and was reading about the TI Hammer(cool by the way!) and read someone likes the carbon frames with titanium mesh on them.

I hate to say it but it is a lie.

It is a decal!

I have talked to a very important person in the cycling industry and he saw them putting the decals on the tubing in TAIWAN!

It is a load of crap. Don't buy into the hype.

Does this person have credibility, ABSOLUTELY!

He is the OWNER and DESIGNER of bikes at his bike company.

Just thought I would mention it.

FRED
Maybe in some cases,TJeanloz
Jan 22, 2003 5:59 AM
I have to say that when the Litespeed carbontec (or whatever the hell they call it) came out, I believed it was a decal. So, I did what any self-respecting LBS that trys to help its customers would do: I asked Litespeed for a piece of it to show customers, which I cut in half. My conclusion is that I think the mesh is applied like a decal, but it is very certainly threads of non-ferrous metal. Does it do anything for the ride qualities? I don't know- it's not really possible to do an apples-to-apples test. Despite this, I still believe its marketing hype that doesn't do much, but it does help sell bikes.
2002 vs 2003 Sienaweiwentg
Jan 22, 2003 6:36 AM
that would be apples to apples, I think. no?
Not in my bookTJeanloz
Jan 22, 2003 7:27 AM
From 2002 to 2003 the Sienna went from ti stays to TEC carbon/titanium stays. To do an apples-to-apples, I think you'd have to go from straight carbon to TEC carbon/titanium.
ok, columbus carve vs muscleweiwentg
Jan 22, 2003 11:39 AM
I think the Muscle has a ti mesh as well. I know it's not litespeed, though.
the bit about the Siena was a bit dumb, because I misread the original post.
do you have a link?DougSloan
Jan 22, 2003 6:30 AM
Never heard of this. Do you have a link to info? Thanks.
re: Carbon frames with TI mesh!&lt;----IT'S A LIE!!GileyD
Jan 22, 2003 9:14 AM
I have a Litespeed Sirius with LITEC stays and fork.

The ti/carbon mesh spiel was one of the factors in me buying the bike as it sounded great.

I love the bike and would recomend it to anyone so no worries there, but can anyone shed any more light on this as I'd be interested to know if I have fallen for some marketing men's bullsh*t!!!
re: Carbon frames with TI mesh!&lt;----IT'S A LIE!!fredthebiker
Jan 22, 2003 9:26 AM
To shed some more light on this, I will tell you that the company who let me in on this info is a sponsor of a major European Road Race team this year. They have had numerous pros riding their bikes for years now and are growing every day! They are just "2" guys who loved cycling and thought they could build the best bikes out and did so!

I am protecting their names and the company name because they have been extremely nice to me over the years and I do not want them to be flooded with calls and emails about this.

I will tell you this, I have seen it personally. And these guys are credible.

It is NOT REAL.

It is all hype.

Fred.
Your credibility is being threatened...TJeanloz
Jan 22, 2003 9:50 AM
All right, as long as we're going to make bold claims:

The Company you refer to has to be Cervelo ('2' guys, Euro-pro team, blah, blah blah). Anybody who wants to call them should: 1-(866)cervelo.

You say in your first post that you know somebody who saw them put the 'decals' on, and then above, you say that you have seen it personally. Which is it? A friend, or you? And what do you mean by real? Are you contesting that there is any titanium in this mesh? Or do you just contend that it has no impact on the mechanics of the bike?

I can say that I (not a friend or other credible source) have personally disected a Litespeed rear end, and can assert that there are threads of metal in there. Do I know that it is titanium? Nope. Do I think it impacts how the bikes ride? I'm skeptical, but I'm open to the possibility that it might.

So for now, we'll just assume that you're trying to run a smear campaign against Cervelo, Litespeed and anybody else who uses a carbon/ti rear end, based on some information that you heard from a friend.
Your credibility is being threatened...fredthebiker
Jan 22, 2003 10:06 AM
Why would I try and smear Cervelo?

I am not making any claims other then the quote, ti rear end over carbon is bunk! It is a decal.

As for what I said, I have recently seen it. I was using the info from the company(yes, it's Cervelo) as the credibility, instead of just me to back it up. I was giving you knowledge that a bike company has seen it and can back it up.

Does this help clarify things?
So, let's clarify,TJeanloz
Jan 22, 2003 10:33 AM
"I am not making any claims other then the quote, ti rear end over carbon is bunk! It is a decal."

So you are making the claim that there is no titanium or other metal in Cervelo's "ti over carbon"?

I will attest to the fact that there is metal in Litespeed's TEC material - in that case, it is not "bunk". Whether or not this has any effect on ride quality is up for review.
So, let's clarify,fredthebiker
Jan 22, 2003 10:40 AM
Cervelo doesn't even make a ti/carbon rear end!
So a product that doesn't even exist is a lie? (nm)TJeanloz
Jan 22, 2003 10:46 AM
So a product that doesn't even exist is a lie? (nm)fredthebiker
Jan 22, 2003 10:55 AM
I have never said it was a Cervelo. I was talking about "ANY" frame that uses a ti/carbon back end!
Ah, my favorite topic...TJeanloz
Jan 22, 2003 11:40 AM
This is the best part about "being in the know" in the bike industry. Never, ever trust what anybody says about somebody else's products. Guys at Litespeed will tell you that they KNOW Colnago titanium bikes are built by chimpanzees in the Ukraine, they may have even seen the chimps themselves. The only things you can believe is when a manufacturer makes a private mea culpa regarding the BS they are spewing- and they're all spewing it. I though you knew of somebody who was marketing decal-ed bikes as the real McCoy and told you so. Now you're just repeating industry gossip.

And you still didn't answer what part of the ti-carbon bit is bunk. Do you think there is no metal in there (as I know there is on Litespeeds, I can probably even find the digital pictures if I look around enough)? Or do you only contend that there is no effect on performance, which I might concede entirely.
Ah, my favorite topic...fredthebiker
Jan 22, 2003 2:30 PM
I happen TO BE IN the bike industry also! Your point?

As for Colnago Ti frames, I can buy one for 250.00 usd from the people in the Czech Republic that make them! Your point there?

This IS NOT industry gossip! It was seen FIRST HAND in TAIWAN that the Quote "Ti Mesh is fake". Nothing more then window dressing.

If I put some thin wire around my frame, will it work like the ti mesh on Litespeed bikes? No, and neither will the ti mesh. It is super-ficial poppy-cock!

If it were mated into the carbon when the carbon is made into round tubing, yes, that would make a difference. Think about it.

What I am telling you is that it is bull. The effects are bull and that it has NO EFFECT what so ever on the properties of the bike or it's ride qualities.

Is all clear now?

What I am saying is, "don't believe the hub bub out there"!
The retail industry is full of crap. I can show you hard data showing you that a carbon rim is stronger then aluminum rims. And I can also show you data showing aluminum rims are stronger then carbon rims.

In the end it is all Bull.

So, just get on a bike, any bike, and ride it!
It's all subjective...TJeanloz
Jan 22, 2003 2:51 PM
Thankfully, I'm not in the bike industry. Any more. So I can deal relatively openly and honestly with these topics without bias.

Unless something was seen first hand by you, I'd say it's gossip. Just my opinion. Here are some things for you to consider though:

Maybe there's a decal put over the surface because people wouldn't be able to otherwise differentiate between carbon woven with ti and without. I don't know if this is the case, and I don't think it is, but it's possible.

I'm also perplexed by this statement from you: "If I put some thin wire around my frame, will it work like the ti mesh on Litespeed bikes? No, and neither will the ti mesh. It is super-ficial poppy-cock!" I thought your whole point was that the Litespeed ti mesh doesn't have any effect, and, I assume that your wire wrapping will also not have an effect; yet you claim that your wrapping will not work like Litespeed's mesh. I would think that your wrapping would work equally well to Litespeed's (which is to say, not well at all).

On the other side of things, who are you to say that applying a decal has no effect? It might seem to you or me to have no effect, but I don't really know how these things work, and maybe it has a huge effect. If Trek wants to sprinkle pixie dust on their frames and say that it makes them stiffer, and it seems like a ridiculous concept, I might say: "that doesn't sound reasonable", but maybe they know something that I don't. If I've ridden two frames, one with the pixie dust and one without, I might say: "I can't tell the difference"; but that, in and of itself doesn't mean that there was no difference. It just means that I, subjectively, could not determine a difference. Let them sell what they want to sell, and if they make ridiculous claims, you and I don't have to believe them. It's that simple.

If it hasn't become apparent yet, I think a lot of things in the industry are bull. OCLV, E5, M4, anything with the word "Proprietary". A good-riding, comfortable bike is a good-riding comfortable bike, and that's how bikes should be evaluated- not by the marketing hype that their companies generate.
Ah, my favorite topic...raptorUW
Jan 23, 2003 11:07 AM
FTB:

seeing as how you're getting ragged on pretty hard, i'd just like to offer a piece of advice. While opinions on the topic of disclosure of personal info vary, i've found that the credibility of "industry sources" like yourself benefit greatly from erring on the side of full disclosure.

If you are going to announce yourself as "in the loop," then you need to back it up. What company do you work for? How long have you been in the industry? What, exactly, is your current industry role?

I hate to say it, but i find it hard to believe that your role in the cycling industry is anything more than part-time work at a shop on the weekends.

Most of the trusted industry sources write in a manner much more eloquent than yours. They offer a signature with their contact info. They don't use terms like "crap", or "bull" to describe products. Moreover, 99 times out of 100, they are quite cautious when evaluating competitor's products. Clear, concise & calm are three words that go a long way to building credibility, for any poster.
I have a Litespeed with the Ti-Mesh. Yes, its for looks only...Bruno S
Jan 22, 2003 12:45 PM
The mesh is applied over the carbon, then a thick clear coat covers the mesh. The mesh is very thin and has very few threads. The mechanical properties of the fork / seatstays should not be affected at all by the mesh. They do look very nice. Like the scales of a fish and I like that. Litespeed sells the Carbo/Ti-Mesh forks as a downgrade from the Reynold Onzo Pro forks (about $100 less for the Litespeed fork).